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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I did in fact i suggested the OP to play a Wood Elf. Those are the ones that look actually what she is looking for. You can see the first picture i posted the elf after the drow. And yes if Astarion is an high elf. (Sun Elves Moon Elves) then even his face is wrong.

"Wood elves were easily identifiable by their coppery skin and green, brown, or hazel eyes. Wood elven hair was usually black or brown,[1] although hues such as blond or copper red were also found. Wood elves tended to dress in simple clothes, similar to those of the moon elves but with fewer bold colors and a greater number of earth tones that blended into their natural surroundings. Accustomed to a harsh, naturalistic lifestyle, wood elves loved to wear leather armor, even when they were not under immediate threat. Wood elves were roughly identical to other elves in height and build, with males larger than females.

Wood elves were often stronger than other Tel-quessir, including other elves, but were frequently less cerebral than moon and sun elves, who put a greater value on education."

I also stated several time i understand her and in fact it is why i say elven head needs to follow more the source materials.

Last edited by Rieline; 06/12/20 07:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I did in fact i suggested the OP to play a Wood Elf. Those are the ones that look actually what she is looking for. You can see the first picture i posted the elf after the drow. And yes if Astarion is an high elf. (Sun Elves Moon Elves) then even his face is wrong.

"Wood elves were easily identifiable by their coppery skin and green, brown, or hazel eyes. Wood elven hair was usually black or brown,[1] although hues such as blond or copper red were also found. Wood elves tended to dress in simple clothes, similar to those of the moon elves but with fewer bold colors and a greater number of earth tones that blended into their natural surroundings. Accustomed to a harsh, naturalistic lifestyle, wood elves loved to wear leather armor, even when they were not under immediate threat. Wood elves were roughly identical to other elves in height and build, with males larger than females.

Wood elves were often stronger than other Tel-quessir, including other elves, but were frequently less cerebral than moon and sun elves, who put a greater value on education."

I also stated several time i understand her and in fact it is why i say elven head needs to follow more the source materials.


If Larian changes his face or race, believe me, the reaction will be terrible. Changes in design are not so important if people like new design. And, believe me, many people like it. Many people don't want to play "alien elf" either, just because it's "old canon".
I immediately remember the strange elven redesign of Dragon Age 2.... Although this has nothing to do with OP problem.

I think there is nothing terrible about playing a female character with "european" face type. To be honest, tieflings have almost the opposite situation, but no one talks about it.


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I don't think there is nothing terrible too however the elves how appear now are kinda lore breaking. You took Dragon age 2 as example. The design of elves changed in Dragon age 2 breaking the lore of it. I truly believe if Larian implement elven face as it supposed to be the OP would find for herself a more appealing head for her. Elves are diverse in Forgotten Realms they offer a variation they just don't look like humans.

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None of this would even be an issue if they had sliders etc. for things like lips, eyes, eyelids, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
I don't think there is nothing terrible too however the elves how appear now are kinda lore breaking. You took Dragon age 2 as example. The design of elves changed in Dragon age 2 breaking the lore of it. I truly believe if Larian implement elven face as it supposed to be the OP would find for herself a more appealing head for her. Elves are diverse in Forgotten Realms they offer a variation they just don't look like humans.


They are likely to add more appearance options, as it was in DOS2, but it is unlikely that they will change entire design of appearance elves. Too much work just because a few people don't like it.

I said about Dragon Age 2 in a different sense, now for bg3 players there is already a visual example of elves, and you are asking to change it. I can also remember NVN2 where elves have slanted eyes, but no more than that. Many people have fixed this "feature" with mods... In BG2, you just don't see your character, I'm not even sure that this can be called "design", because all "design" goes into portrait, which can just be anything!


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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


So, you mean you would like to have some swedish looking twileks for the sake of diversity (aside of they are multicolored anyway, so I don't get the african point here).
Or are you just hating any caucasians?

Last edited by Grantig; 06/12/20 11:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


So, you mean you would like to have some swedish looking twileks for the sake of diversity.
Or are you just hating any caucasians?



They already have twi'leks with all sorts of features, including Caucasian. I'm not hating anyone, especially not Caucasians since I am one. No one is asking for FEWER Caucasian-looking things, just more African ones.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


THANK YOU!!!!

Jeez one simple request about adding diversity and suddenly it's all about accuracy and lore which I'm completely fine with!!!!

I personally dont mind how the elves look but I do mind that most options for them are eurocentric which again is fine but it would be nice to have more options that include diverse features!

Even with the human heads there is not enough diverse options!!!!

And for those who want the elves to look different that's fine you all prove a valid point but you cant deny that with the different races of elves you can diversify them without making them look too human! There is so much to play with and so much opportunities!

Especially for such an amazing game!

Guys remember this is DnD and it's different for everyone!

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Elves are not humans. Elves are so diverse in D&D they even have several subraces. That differ in another way than humans do.
So implementing human facial distinction isn't quite logical. Especially as elven faces don't look human, as several times pointed out here.
For the elven race logic it would make more sense to create another elven subrace, whatever, like desert elves.

Before BG3 I didn't even know/remember that elves did look so different in D&D (aside of some artworks in earlier D&D games, which I considered more "badly drawn"), I assumed they were either based on Tolkien or the other elf type, were elves were just smaller and prettier than humans.

But as I'm more tolerant as people always complaining about just everything (and telling everone else being wrong), so I'm okay with african feature elves.
Of all problems that BG3 has, the lack of faces is just a small one.
But I would also like to see more available heads...

Last edited by Grantig; 06/12/20 12:07 PM.
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Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.

(But if we do want to apply some real world logic to it, remember that human genetic diversity is actually very small compared to most other creatures. Given that D&D races are different species, it may be reasonable to assume they would actually have greater levels of genetic diversity than humans and, therefore, some may coincidentally resemble different human races given that they are all humanoid and our brains are wired to recognize the familiar.)

Sliders, headparts, and a bigger sampling of presets would give people a greater range to shape their experience however they want it.

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Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.

(But if we do want to apply some real world logic to it, remember that human genetic diversity is actually very small compared to most other creatures. Given that D&D races are different species, it may be reasonable to assume they would actually have greater levels of genetic diversity than humans and, therefore, some may coincidentally resemble different human races given that they are all humanoid and our brains are wired to recognize the familiar.)

Sliders, headparts, and a bigger sampling of presets would give people a greater range to shape their experience however they want it.



Great post!

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Originally Posted by pinklily

Sliders, headparts, and a bigger sampling of presets would give people a greater range to shape their experience however they want it.


Yes.
Especially as I don't like 3 out of 4 head presets on any race/gender.

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I always found the appeal of rolling a non-human character is that they look distinct to humans. Each to their own I guess. Personally I like to play dwarves and elves because I get to live out the fantasy of playing a race who, while sharing similarities, are noticeably different from human. I am all for the beautiful spectrum of human diversity being represented in humans and half-elves, half-orcs, etc. I just don't see why we need to reflect human diversity in Elves, when they are supposed to be a different species but that's just me and I can appreciate people think otherwise.

In this thread I have read posts suggesting ethereal = white (skin) and broadly conflating Elven features with North European Caucasian features, which to me is nonsense. You could equally argue that Elves share a resemblance to, for example, some East African and East Asian people but I haven't seen that mentioned here. I am of North European heritage and have a nose that is flat and round ie. untypical of what people might generally associate with Caucasian! I look nothing like an elf. If I did, I'd piss off to the forest and live out the fantasy for real.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I don't understand why around here people being straight and/or crass gets mods all involved, but passive aggressiveness is seen as fine. Can't think of one post of yours where you don't allude to people being either bigots, stupid, intellectually dishonest or just plain horrible because they don't share your views. Maybe the ones where you don't contribute to anything and just come in to mock the OP with a one-liner, like that other poster does.

This is being straight, by the way, so i know what to expect.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
None of this would even be an issue if they had sliders etc. for things like lips, eyes, eyelids, etc.


+1

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Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect. Because a wold is fictional that doesn't mean that it haves not his rules if i create a world where elves are described to have spikes in the foreheads then all the elves born in that setting should have spike on the foreheads.

You don't like the setting then go homebrew. But Baldur's gate 3 is in the forgotten realms so the setting is applied here.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect. Because a wold is fictional that doesn't mean that it haves not his rules if i create a world where elves are described to have spikes in the foreheads then all the elves born in that setting should have spike on the foreheads.

You don't like the setting then go homebrew. But Baldur's gate 3 is in the forgotten realms so the setting is applied here.


I thought Tolkien was the defacto go to for elves.

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Originally Posted by guy
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect. Because a wold is fictional that doesn't mean that it haves not his rules if i create a world where elves are described to have spikes in the foreheads then all the elves born in that setting should have spike on the foreheads.

You don't like the setting then go homebrew. But Baldur's gate 3 is in the forgotten realms so the setting is applied here.


I thought Tolkien was the defacto go to for elves.


Tolkien elves are not Forgotten Realm elves nor D&D elves.

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Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.


THIS!!!! THIS IS EXCELLENT!

it's a dnd FANTASY game! And the dnd universe its constantly changing and evolving as we progress through time!

We can all argue about the traditional appearance of elves! Everyones opinion is valid and great!

But one thing I want to say is why do we have to constantly go with the "traditional" elves? If it's all gonna look the same as every other fantasy game and movie what's the point of having creativity? It's kinda boring no?

I feel like we have this mindset of sticking to this "tradition" because we are too used to it, and with this we should be encouraging change and breaking boundaries because that is what the Dnd universe is constantly doing! And it's great!

It's nice to see changes when it comes to something like this because it just means its thinking outside of the box and exploring more! And we need that! Like I said we cant keep sticking to the same old thing because it just to me at least gets boring!

I'm not going to lie I am super tired of seeing the same old elves must have x and y features because of x and y and such!
I completely understand it when it comes to the science and history of the specific campaign setting but like I said in an earlier post there are many different races of elves so why do they all have to look the same?

I understand there are colour variations but that just feels like a slap in the face! Like "here you go heres a sun elf with the exact same features as a high elf except you can give them more darker skin tones" like what? No show me different features! Show me more of a regional difference!

A good example I can think of (though the races are limited so far) is the dragon prince on netflix and their distinction between the moon elves and the sun elves! You can definitely tell the difference and that's not just because of colour variations!

(Apologies if I went off I had no intention of offending anyone if I did I just simply wish to express my frustration, English is not my first language so i understand of there might be a miscommunication, sorry if it felt like an attack on anyone specifically it really wasnt I promise you, just let me know and I can explain further smile )

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Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.


THIS!!!! THIS IS EXCELLENT!

it's a dnd FANTASY game! And the dnd universe its constantly changing and evolving as we progress through time!

We can all argue about the traditional appearance of elves! Everyones opinion is valid and great!

But one thing I want to say is why do we have to constantly go with the "traditional" elves? If it's all gonna look the same as every other fantasy game and movie what's the point of having creativity? It's kinda boring no?

I feel like we have this mindset of sticking to this "tradition" because we are too used to it, and with this we should be encouraging change and breaking boundaries because that is what the Dnd universe is constantly doing! And it's great!

It's nice to see changes when it comes to something like this because it just means its thinking outside of the box and exploring more! And we need that! Like I said we cant keep sticking to the same old thing because it just to me at least gets boring!

I'm not going to lie I am super tired of seeing the same old elves must have x and y features because of x and y and such!
I completely understand it when it comes to the science and history of the specific campaign setting but like I said in an earlier post there are many different races of elves so why do they all have to look the same?

I understand there are colour variations but that just feels like a slap in the face! Like "here you go heres a sun elf with the exact same features as a high elf except you can give them more darker skin tones" like what? No show me different features! Show me more of a regional difference!

A good example I can think of (though the races are limited so far) is the dragon prince on netflix and their distinction between the moon elves and the sun elves! You can definitely tell the difference and that's not just because of colour variations!

(Apologies if I went off I had no intention of offending anyone if I did I just simply wish to express my frustration, English is not my first language so i understand of there might be a miscommunication, sorry if it felt like an attack on anyone specifically it really wasnt I promise you, just let me know and I can explain further smile )


Fantasy does not mean disregard for the Setting this is something that the bad roleplayer do the kind one a DM don't want at the table. D&D offer the freedom to create your own world and in your own world you are free to make the elves appear exactly how you want. Unfortunately BG3 follow a setting that has his own races and lore the elves of Forgotten Realms ((the setting bg3 take place in)) are diverse on theyr own.

The fact a setting is a fantasy world does not mean you can "Make up" things. In that way you don't only disergard the setting but you kill the credibility and the background people written about that world.

Now the point is BG3 have elves that looks more human than elves and that is an issue as this setting is not created by larian. I don't feel your post desrespectful at all i am just attempting to explain one thing that many seems to forger.

A) Elves are not humans they are a completely different race. Expect the Elves to have Human Ethnicy diversity is like expecting a Benholder to have human tracts completely out of place.

B)This is not an homebrew setting created by Larian this is Forgotten Realms a setting that have Lore Background and also well extabilished look when it comes to races killing off this just kills the credibility of the setting.

If a player would tell me: I would like to play an elves with dark skin but not drow. I would tell him or her: There are both Wood Elves and WIld elves to chose from. Both this races have colour variation that can be dark and both of them have a cool background about them.

What makes my nose wrinkle is that people that seek to enforce human ethnicy where it does not belong in a setting with extabilished appearance when it comes to races don't have the minimal respect for the setting or simple they don't know the setting.

As a person i attemt to explain things in a manner they understand it.

But i don't condone or never support who is pointing the finger. I was called Intellectually Dishonest because i was disagreeing with someone and this is not a prime example of civil discussion. However i did not put so much weight on it and instead if anyone felt offended that was not my intention.

I Care about the setting i love and grew up with. That's all.

The moment things are forced for no logical reason is the moment you destroy a setting and trash Artistic Integrity down the toilet.

((Reason why WOTC butchered the 4th edition and created the 5th one))

And no i don't think the current BG3 head in the game represent elves at all.

Last edited by Rieline; 06/12/20 07:14 PM.
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