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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Really coming after me today, eh Dexai? That's fine, I know that I have a tendency to rile people up with some of my posts.


You have to forgive me, I didn't realise there was a limit to how many times you can be responded to per day. If you don't want people to communicate with you, maybe not be so quick to post everywhere? I simply want to share my opinion. I think that's the same wish that drives you to post in every thread.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
If you could just show me where in my post I demanded something, that would be great. I can't find it.


As far as I can see the entire point of your post is that since other opinions exist (and happen to align with yours), theirs (the person you are arguing with) doesn't matter. They should give feedback that puts the nebulous other people's opinions above their own.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
If someone says, "Hey I think the game would be a lot more fun if they get rid of origin characters!" I'm not going to argue with that. I mean, I might express my own, contrary, opinion, but I'm not going to try to take their post apart like I sometimes do.

Mostly I get a bee in my bonnet over hyperbole and statements of This Is Absolutely So about things which are, fundamentally, matters of opinion.


You talk like that yourself all the time, and then you quip and make fun of people to add to it. I don't really think you're in position to admonish others on that.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


This is literally the feedback and suggestions forum for an EA game. It is the point of this forum to make suggestions that you think will improve the game. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions you like. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions the nebulous other people like. It's just going to be the feedback of the people who give it. You can only respond to it with your opinion. Appealing to the silent majority is a intellectual fallacy. Telling people who give feedback that there are other opinions is a "well duh" statement. Of course there are other opinions. Larian themselves are of an other opinion to OP in this thread. That's why he made the thread, on the suggestion forum, to suggest that they change their opinion.

Lastly, I'm glad that you agree about the names. I've had to restart playthroughs myself because I've missed changing the name, and I'm a person who cares a lot about names. In my opinion the naming UI should be the very last thing that pops up before or right after you click the "finish character"/"start game" button.


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What I would like to know are the split among origins in DoS2, replays and finish games. I mean, the people who played as custom in DoS2 is probably a hardcore custom character. While people who played all the origins with no changes are probably the hardcore origins with most people probably in the middle. That won't account for the people who would simply choose other game because they favored custom characters (or other reason), but would start yo paint a picture.

Also, it would be nice to have a pool were people could vote which character they would play. It should allow for custom being an option. It should also allow for people to mark more than one but ponderate results by assingning more points to the choices by people who only mark one. That way, if someone only play Laezel (or custom) all the points would be assign to that. If other mark 3, the points would be divided among the 3. And ifvyou mark all of them, it would he even.

I suspect that some origins would barely played. Specially the ones that people plan to romance. While other origins would be more popular.

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So I agree that some comparisons are not apples to apples. But you aren't going to find a better game to compare BG3 against than DOS1/2. DOS2 in particular. You certainly can't compare it to BG 1/2. I mean the fact that BG3 is turn based... Might as well be comparing with Skyrim. (DOS 2 has a better ranking than Skyrim BTW).

As for advertising, etc... The steam user satisfaction rankings are based on percentages. So if DOS1 only had 1000 buy it and 500 ranked and DOS 2 had 100,000 buy it and 50,000 ranked... it just mean better precision, but it doesn't change the rank. Bottom line, those who played DOS 1 liked it less than those who played DOS 2.

I played both DOS 1 and DOS 2 and I can tell you that they were very similar games. They were both set in the same universe with the same lore and gods. Same basic movement and combat mechanic (that feel almost identical to BG3). IE: Chaining party members, barrelmancy, max party size of 4, Feats every 4 levels,etc... ). The primary difference was... the origin stories in DOS 2.

And the similarities between BG3 and DOS 2 don't end with origin stories or level up mechanics. In DOS 2, you started off as a prisoner on a ship heading to an island-prison. On the ship you meet your future companion options and then the ship is attacked, sinks and you somehow magically survive what should have been certain death... Only to find out later you survived because of divine intervention and that the gods have a plan for you.

Sound familiar?

End of Chapter 1 in DOS... you leave by boarding a boat with you current party of 4. Those that are not in the boat/party at that time are left behind.

Sound familiar?

Larian is taking the template of DOS 2 and applying a D&D Forgotten Realms theme to it. And I don't blame them. DOS 2 was much more successful than DOS. Whether origins were the reason or not, bottom line it was there most successful game. Origins has become their hallmark feature.

So BG3 is targetting 3 groups and trying to strike a balance that keep all happy: Larian Fans, D&D Fans and BG Fans.

They are not going to scrap their hallmark origins feature and alienate their Larian fans any more than they are going to scrap turn based combat and alienate their 5E PnP fans. Maybe a better question is what does this game have to do with Baldur's Gate at the moment?


You find a pamphlet in the Zhent hideout office that talks about a statue of a ranger holding a hamster in some market square that needs to be cleaned. So you will likely get to rescue Minsc, but that is the only connection I have really heard of


But I digress... Bottom line is : -1 to the idea of scrapping Origins. And I will leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


This is literally the feedback and suggestions forum for an EA game. It is the point of this forum to make suggestions that you think will improve the game. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions you like. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions the nebulous other people like. It's just going to be the feedback of the people who give it. You can only respond to it with your opinion. Appealing to the silent majority is a intellectual fallacy. Telling people who give feedback that there are other opinions is a "well duh" statement. Of course there are other opinions. Larian themselves are of an other opinion to OP in this thread. That's why he made the thread, on the suggestion forum, to suggest that they change their opinion.

Isn't this a sort of... I dunno. Sequitur, maybe.

Er anyway. BG3 doesn't have lobsters*. I am disappoint.

* talky ones. I want lobsters that are chatty. Not radlobsters like Fallout. They killed me and stuff and generally sucked.


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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
In that case I'll have to disagree with both of you and agree with EMC_V. These statistics are completely useless and the quoted numbers a textbook example of misuse/abuse of statistics. There's so many variables between those games that taking conclusions about popularity of certain features from those numbers is... pretty much worthless. By this logic you could argue combat in TW3 is better than combat in Dark Souls, since the former has better numbers.


Yes. I know this is not the OP's topic, so I'll stop there. But I have difficulty with the idea of letting bad science fly uncontested.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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Originally Posted by Dheuster
So I agree that some comparisons are not apples to apples. But you aren't going to find a better game to compare BG3 against than DOS1/2. DOS2 in particular. You certainly can't compare it to BG 1/2. I mean the fact that BG3 is turn based... Might as well be comparing with Skyrim. (DOS 2 has a better ranking than Skyrim BTW).

As for advertising, etc... The steam user satisfaction rankings are based on percentages. So if DOS1 only had 1000 buy it and 500 ranked and DOS 2 had 100,000 buy it and 50,000 ranked... it just mean better precision, but it doesn't change the rank. Bottom line, those who played DOS 1 liked it less than those who played DOS 2.

I played both DOS 1 and DOS 2 and I can tell you that they were very similar games. They were both set in the same universe with the same lore and gods. Same basic movement and combat mechanic (that feel almost identical to BG3). IE: Chaining party members, barrelmancy, max party size of 4, Feats every 4 levels,etc... ). The primary difference was... the origin stories in DOS 2.

And the similarities between BG3 and DOS 2 don't end with origin stories or level up mechanics. In DOS 2, you started off as a prisoner on a ship heading to an island-prison. On the ship you meet your future companion options and then the ship is attacked, sinks and you somehow magically survive what should have been certain death... Only to find out later you survived because of divine intervention and that the gods have a plan for you.

Sound familiar?

End of Chapter 1 in DOS... you leave by boarding a boat with you current party of 4. Those that are not in the boat/party at that time are left behind.

Sound familiar?

Larian is taking the template of DOS 2 and applying a D&D Forgotten Realms theme to it. And I don't blame them. DOS 2 was much more successful than DOS. Whether origins were the reason or not, bottom line it was there most successful game. Origins has become their hallmark feature.

So BG3 is targetting 3 groups and trying to strike a balance that keep all happy: Larian Fans, D&D Fans and BG Fans.

They are not going to scrap their hallmark origins feature and alienate their Larian fans any more than they are going to scrap turn based combat and alienate their 5E PnP fans. Maybe a better question is what does this game have to do with Baldur's Gate at the moment?


You find a pamphlet in the Zhent hideout office that talks about a statue of a ranger holding a hamster in some market square that needs to be cleaned. So you will likely get to rescue Minsc, but that is the only connection I have really heard of


But I digress... Bottom line is : -1 to the idea of scrapping Origins. And I will leave it at that.



your opinion on origins is valid and accepted.

To the first part of post.

As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.

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Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.

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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


This is literally the feedback and suggestions forum for an EA game. It is the point of this forum to make suggestions that you think will improve the game. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions you like. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions the nebulous other people like. It's just going to be the feedback of the people who give it. You can only respond to it with your opinion. Appealing to the silent majority is a intellectual fallacy. Telling people who give feedback that there are other opinions is a "well duh" statement. Of course there are other opinions. Larian themselves are of an other opinion to OP in this thread. That's why he made the thread, on the suggestion forum, to suggest that they change their opinion.

Isn't this a sort of... I dunno. Sequitur, maybe.


Not by intetion! How do you mean?


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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.


+1




Also, for everyone making the ridiculous argument that origin characters are some sort of Larian signature feature. . .They existed in exactly one title from a studio of six games, and while I acknowledge they are of potential value and some small utility, they are not necessarily so in this application. It may be unique to them, or may not I really don't know, but its hardly a trend let alone a staple of their production

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Originally Posted by Dexai


You have to forgive me, I didn't realise there was a limit to how many times you can be responded to per day. If you don't want people to communicate with you, maybe not be so quick to post everywhere? I simply want to share my opinion. I think that's the same wish that drives you to post in every thread.


As far as I can see the entire point of your post is that since other opinions exist (and happen to align with yours), theirs (the person you are arguing with) doesn't matter. They should give feedback that puts the nebulous other people's opinions above their own.


You talk like that yourself all the time, and then you quip and make fun of people to add to it. I don't really think you're in position to admonish others on that.


Lastly, I'm glad that you agree about the names. I've had to restart playthroughs myself because I've missed changing the name, and I'm a person who cares a lot about names. In my opinion the naming UI should be the very last thing that pops up before or right after you click the "finish character"/"start game" button.



No limit, friend. Feel free to go through my entire post history and disagree with every one of them. If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post, so that you will never miss an opportunity to respond to me. I'm helpful like that.


That wasn't the point of my post at all, but you're free to interpret things however you like.


I might talk like that sometimes, I really don't know. Generally, if I do it's in a comedic sense, and I try to make that fairly obvious, but tone can be hard to read on the Internet. And I might occasionally do it non-comedically as well. I can't remember doing it, but I won't deny the possibility.


Yeah, they need to put the name thing at the end, for sure. Seems like kind of a no-brainer, most other games do it like that.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post


Is this an open offer, or an achievement one unlocks through sufficient harassment?

Asking for a friend.

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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.


+1




Also, for everyone making the ridiculous argument that origin characters are some sort of Larian signature feature. . .They existed in exactly one title from a studio of six games, and while I acknowledge they are of potential value and some small utility, they are not necessarily so in this application. It may be unique to them, or may not I really don't know, but its hardly a trend let alone a staple of their production



-1

The game is plenty Baldur's Gate to me. It's hugely different from DOS.

And people be like, "Other than the story, the setting, the characters, the lore, the races, the gods, the locations, the core mechanics, the classes, the stats, the combat system, the IP, the equipment, the magic system, the resting system, the armor system, the tone, the themes, the presentation of dialogues, the cinematic nature, the skill checks, the advantage/disadvantage system, the saving throw system, the monsters, the factions, the stealth system, and the spells/abilities . . . other than those few MINOR things, this game is JUST LIKE DIVINITY."


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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post


Is this an open offer, or an achievement one unlocks through sufficient harassment?

Asking for a friend.



Well I dunno, I do really like harassment...

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No dispute.

But this is the child of many parents and some have had greater influence than others. It is unmistakably Dungeons and Dragons, but is equally Larian as well.

It is as jarring at first as jumping into a pool which is colder than one had expected but it all becomes comfortable rather quickly I think.


edit:

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post


Is this an open offer, or an achievement one unlocks through sufficient harassment?

Asking for a friend.



Well I dunno, I do really like harassment...


Love your sense of humor lady

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Tbh I don't care how similar to D:OS it is, I care how much it does or doesn't feel BG. And no, by that I don't mean "copy Infinity Engine". (Then again, "overpresence" of one game's influences - be it D:OS or DA - will be at the cost of any potential BG feel, so in that sense I do care how similar it is to D:OS or DA.)

Funnily enough, Firesnakearies' quote also (mostly) matches for something else:

"Other than the story, the setting, the characters, the lore, the races, the gods, the locations, the core mechanics, the classes, the stats, the combat system, the IP, the equipment, the magic system, the resting system, the armor system, the tone, the themes, the presentation of dialogues, the cinematic nature, the skill checks, the advantage/disadvantage system, the saving throw system, the monsters, the factions, the stealth system, the lack of day/night cycle and weather, the party size, the party management, the camp, the barrelmancy, the surfaces, the aesthetics and the spells/abilities . . . other than those few MINOR things, this game is JUST LIKE DIVINITY BALDUR'S GATE."

(Slightly overemphasized for dramatic effect... but only slightly.)

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.



Yup. That's my perception of the game as well. I would just add that it fails in trying to be DA, but that's about it.

The more time I've spent with BG3 the bigger the disappointment became. At first I bought into the classes and 5e surface, but the feeling of the game has nothing to do with BG. Even the 5e ruleset that is in there in huge parts gets watered down in the most obvious and significant parts to see the DOS mentality underneath everything (not talking about UI and some old engine related quirks, I don't care about these placeholders one bit). Honestly I after DOS2 I would never had both any other DOS-game for full price, even less wasted time on a EA. I was expecting a BG3 game as they kept harping about how much they care about making it a 5e experience.

Sadly they have also completely failed making the characters feel like D&D characters. With storys far bigger than their level, enemies that should be far too potent for level 1 characters, arch druids on level 5,.... non of these would bother me in a different type of game. I actually prefer games that don't use a level mechanic like D&D. But in D&D its different. Levels are not mentioned in the story, but you simply feel them in everything. BG3 has none of it. They are meaningless beyond gameplay itself and it feels off. A party of 4 level 4 characters killing a beholder? Really?

And this negligence in design is too obvious when you look at your origin characters. There is no elegance in their writting or background story. Even the tadpole as explenation for them not having their full powers is grotesque lazy. Do I need a party of 4 Eders? No, but at the same time I am a 100% the BG3 team couldn't pull of even one. For all the shit I might give PoE, they had fitting companions - non too big, slowly growing to the challenges, giving insights into the world with their own background, never overwhelming the player character. A good character is more often than not memorable because of their behavior and quirks, not the big special background story. Also all Larian characters being the actual main characters it leaves no room for a custom character.

Now if the game was just about origin characters and the custom character was advertised as second thought/additional opion I would be fine with it. If that's the game they want to create, I won't object. But they didn't and instead assured us that the custom character is important and will be a full experience. They are not and the game overall is not was they said it would be. At least to me, so feel free to disagree.

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The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.


I can see that for SH and Lae'zel, but not for, say, Wyll. Or at least it's not done in a good way. We're knee-deep in his quest 5 minutes after meeting him. As a sidenote, that also kind of hurts the couple talks where they hint he's not actually that big of a hero, or when a warlock can call him out. It's foreshadowing for its own sake, for stuff that we'll get to know within a hour's time. Again, compare with Alistair and Duncan (and Cailan!!). That's foreshadowing done well in my opinion, that on replays make you go 'oh!'.

I guess maybe it's a byproduct of the Origin's system, that we get to know a lot all at once, but meh.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.


I can see that for SH and Lae'zel, but not for, say, Wyll. Or at least it's not done in a good way. We're knee-deep in his quest 5 minutes after meeting him. As a sidenote, that also kind of hurts the couple talks where they hint he's not actually that big of a hero, or when a warlock can call him out. It's foreshadowing for its own sake, for stuff that we'll get to know within a hour's time. Again, compare with Alistair and Duncan (and Cailan!!). That's foreshadowing done well in my opinion, that on replays make you go 'oh!'.

I guess maybe it's a byproduct of the Origin's system, that we get to know a lot all at once, but meh.

This whole Wyll's quest can be nothing more than a first stage of his quest. Like find Mizora and find out... something, I can come up with a few possible things from not that exciting to making Wyll's whole life much more complicated. Same with Gale, there is even some speculations already that he's actually lying to us and his whole situation with Mystra was quite different from what he says.
Foreshadowing is a problem for sure. Would be great if they would make a trick similar to the one they did with Astarion, who get's his vampiric attack only after his confession. With Wylls backstory he could pretend to be a rogue or a dex-fighter for a while.

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