Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback [Feedback] Drath's report - Roleplay, story, immersion (part 1)

The lack of concept of time and day/night cycle is what is messing up the game. I didn't think it was important before playing, but you have no sense of how long it's been or sense of urgency. And it doesn't give you a true concept of when you're supposed to rest at all.

Larian tried to band-aid this by having the characters do little "I'm tired" voices here and there, but it is a sad sad sad attempt to make the difference.

And i bet that would be another dead end ...
Githyanki have purification ritual that is working on regular tadpoles ... same as the Hag had the way that was allways working before.

But your tadpole is different, and you would need to go to Moonrise towers no matter who you try ... that is my bet. :P

Possible solution!
That is the problem in theese conversations, for some (unknown to me) reason people presuming that Halsin will be able to help you no matter what, but the only one who is recomending him to you is Nettie. The same druid that was trying to kill you, the same druid that was forcing you to swear her that you will comit suicide if anything goes wrong. Would she do that if Halsin would be bet for certain help? I dont think so.
And as far as i remember she told us: "Maybe master Halsin would plucket it from your head." And that is important maybe! ... And a few dozen seconds we have here this confession: "You must find master Halsin, he might be your only chance."

So as we can see, Halsin ... as well as Hag, as well as Volo, as well as Gut, and (lets be honest with each other) probably as well as Githyanki Creche ... its only possibility, nothing more. :P

True ... but they are living proof of that solution you are looking for.
If they would be just possibility, same as everyone else who i named abowe, they would still start to change before you, since they werent on the same ship ... that is quite obvious, since they had enought time to gather goblin army and allready raid at least two settlements around.

So they can either work as your countdown, or are prooving that you are safe with them.

True ... but that is no rare around sword coast as it seems.
Shadowhearth is threating you to keep your distance, Astarion litteraly tryed to cut your throat, Nettie tryed to poison you ... why is killing few lowly insignificant goblins that no one care about any different?

True that ... there is only that argument that every single NPC i met so far seemed quite selfish, so...

Sure it may be, no doubt about it ...
And if your character is ambicious enough, he might even plan to try turn it on them instead.
Just the same as Gale implies that you can try outsmart Raphael and beat him in his own game.

Yeah, its nothing wrong about missing some clues, there is enormous amount of them after all ... i have found secret stash of Kagha on mine fifth playtrough.

I believe this is quite subjective ... i dont like Wyll, he seem to me like cocky brat ... so quite easy for me.

I believe they are ment to be something like hidden (but not so well hidden) alternative ...
None of them can offer you help, since for one no one wants to help you, and for two no one even know about this problem ... and the knowledge of tadpole, is your advantage in this cult.

I can imagine only one way to adress this to player without breaking imersion of rest of the story, and its Narator ... something like:
"Once you look in her eyes, you can sence her parasite ... yet she dont display any signs of change, bad health, or even discomfort ... maybe if you stick around you also find a way to master your own tadpole."
But that would sadly break the secret about this whole option.

To be completely honest it seem quite obvious, yet i like it isnt served under your nose ...
So there is at least chance that some people will miss it. The whole situation with Absolute cult seem to me like if DM create some plot, and then repeat for himself "Notice! Notice! Notice!" ... and if you dont, he will give you another clue, and another clue, and another clue ... until he gets tired and simply tells you.
I dont want Larian to get tired and tells us, we have our hints ... who will notice, may proceed ... who dont, will proceed another path, i dont see anything bad about it.

You know about this option ... you want to use this option ... now its up to you to find a way. :P

Dream entity is suppose to be mysterious ...
You have option to ask her what she is ... and she tells you "I think you allready know."

Come on! That is perfect!
And add, change, or remove anything would totally breat it.

Oh you definietly can, and in this case i even believe that you should.

I see what you mean, i just think that they are there ... you just need to search for them actively.

Yes, and that is good ...
If BG3-EA teached me anything, its that we cant take anything as grated and i love it, it keeps the story intensive.

This is why i loved so much Game of Thrones, (except finale -_-) since you have seen from the begining that every character is in existencial danger, it was much more interesting to watch their fates.

And if you decide to go with Halsin, you need to discard the Absolute card ...
I dont see any difference, two people both POSSIBLY able to help are against each other ... choose your side, nothing more, nothing less.

Huge if?
Even if you fail all your atempts to sneak around the main gate, or talk through, you are not Drow, and you decide to not use your tadpole ... even if you kill them all, and simply walk into goblin camp still dirty of their comrades blood ... they are friendly.

I believe i allready mentined quite a lot clues that implies both.
We did talk about it few times allready and i know that you are willing to ignore everything that is right before you (unless i misstake you with someone else) until some npc will stand before you and tells you: "Join us and you can master your tadpole, instead of geting rid of it." -_-

Fun fact: NO solution is garanted.
In fact you are trading one suspicious closed box that could contain some solution ... for another suspicious closed box that could contain entirely different solution.

Anything else is just pure speculation based on how you like the person (or being) that was giving you the box. :P

From an in-character perspective, we have a character that knows far more than most people in the setting about the tadpoles presenting a definite way to get rid of them. It's not even like she's vague about the method, she describes a process of removal and and I didn't encounter any reason to suspect she was lying at all in my playthrough. So from an in-character perspective, her solution is as close to a guarantee as we get.


I agree that they're all only possible, but they're possibilities that you have decent, clear reasons to think will work. I recieved no such reason to think the Absolute wasn't just a trap. The problem is that if the Absolute is a trap, then you go for it and you're almost definitely screwed because you're not likely to find out until it's too late. If you go for any other options, then you may have time to try another before it's too late. Going for the Absolute path to my mind has higher stakes for failure than any other path.


This is a good point, I can't and won't argue with it.


Also a good point.

Sure it may be, no doubt about it ...
And if your character is ambicious enough, he might even plan to try turn it on them instead.
Just the same as Gale implies that you can try outsmart Raphael and beat him in his own game.[/quote]

At this stage that's still a stupid gamble because we don't know nearly enough about them, certainly not not enough to know if trying to turn it on them would even get us what we want. With Raphael at least, you know that he's almost certainly powerful enough to do what he says and you know what he wants. You don't know that about the Absolute so thinking you can turn their trap against them is kind of insane. Again, even though the other options aren't true guarantees (I still think that the creche is presented in a way that the PC would reasonably think that it is a guarantee though) the Absolute path is the biggest gamble because we're given so little and have to risk a lot even for just information.

Yeah, its nothing wrong about missing some clues, there is enormous amount of them after all ... i have found secret stash of Kagha on mine fifth playtrough.


Also fair.

I can imagine only one way to adress this to player without breaking imersion of rest of the story, and its Narator ... something like:
"Once you look in her eyes, you can sence her parasite ... yet she dont display any signs of change, bad health, or even discomfort ... maybe if you stick around you also find a way to master your own tadpole."
But that would sadly break the secret about this whole option.[/quote]

I don't feel like it's meant to be a secret though. It's directly tied to one of the two main ways you can complete this part of the story. So something like what you suggested would actually be perfect because it doesn't seem to me that this is actually supposed to be a mystery. It's meant to be the "evil" path of this part of the game, while siding with the druids is the "good" path. If it were meant to be a secret then I feel as though it should be harder to even find the opportunity to join the cult. If it were meant to be a major secret then I would have no problem with having to untangle little dropped hints to learn about it. But to me, the structure of the game suggests that the Absolute is being presented as a second, equally viable option to the Druids and Halsin, so if that's supposed to be the case, then the information for why the cult is a good choice should be presented as clearly as the information for why the Druids are a good choice.

I think this may be the core of why I take issue with how it's presented thus far and the core of our different opinions. You're looking at it as a secret path to be unravelled, but I'm looking at it as a main path that should be as clear as the other main path but isn't, and so that lack of clarity is a failing rather than a purposeful feature in my eyes. For instance the fact that there are apparently shadow druids in the glade (whatever those are, I'm not really aware of the lore) is a secret that could very well impact how you interact with the group as a whole. The fact that that's something I completely missed in my playthrough to me signals that it's a piece of information that's purposefully hidden and that can impact roleplaying in a future playthrough. So I look at that and think "oh, that's a good, fun piece of design." This issue however feels like something is supposed to be an obvious so-equal alternative choice but they haven't given the same level of clarity as to why it's an equal choice. So if the Absolute path is meant to be a secret then I think it actually fails worse on that front because the option to join them is presented far too readily and easily.



The problem is that as I mentioned above, this seems to be one of the two main paths to complete this section of the game. The GM in this scenario is dropping hints while also giving you several far more attractive options to follow. If this were a real GM, I'd think that he was signalling me *not* to go that route.


When she said that, I assumed she was a manifestation of the tadpole trying to get me to use my powers more and hurry the process.


The problem is that every other option doesn't require you to search actively to find a reason why it's apparently viable. Which is why I take issue with the way the path is presented-when every other option is so clear, that's training the player to expect a certain level of clarity across the board. It's telling me "no option is truly guaranteed, but we're going to tell you what the options are and give you enough information to start weighing the pro's and con's." The information I get about the Absolute is so much more vague when it's being presented as the second major option in the game.


But again, the path is full of even more what-if's than any other paths, to the point that it becomes the least attractive.

That multiquote kinda buged huh?

I presume you mean Lae'zel?

I never said she was lying ...
- I (as a person, concidering everything i get from my previous gamplays) just dont believe that her method will be aplicable to our case.
- I (as a Githyanki character) see that mine kin have solution, so i follow it blindly, since my species was allways told that we are supreme ... therefore our method must be the best one.
- I (as any other character) see that Lae'zel is a zealot ... her people knows best, her people do best, her people this, her people that ... everyone around the globe are useless idiots unless they are Gith, even if she litteraly admits that she knows nothing about this world. And then it depends on specific characters if they are willing to thrust the Gith or not, especialy after that encounter with Gith patrol ...

For example:
My Tiefling is suspicious charlatan, notorious liar that expect everyone around her to be as false as she is ...
For her, Lae'zel is suspicious, since she never doubt her words, and never doubt her methods ... but need overweight the risk, so she decided to follow her to mountain pass ... there they met Githyanki patrol, and she let Lae'zel do handle the situation ... yet the patrol leader decided that Lae'zel should be beheaded bcs she is infected ...
That is the situation then my Tiefling started to wonder if that whole "purification protocol" isnt just fairytail, that is told to Gith younglings, so they dont struggle when they fail in their hunt, when they are infected, and when its time to end them bcs their people actually believe there is no cure at all.

Also, to add some metainfo flavour ... note the fact that if your character is Githyanki, s/he never heared about purification protocol.
Quite a coincidence, isnt it?

As i tryed to explain abowe, it depends on character ...
Some do, some dont ...

Also it depends on how many times you allready tryed.
Specificly it depends on if you allready tryed to ask Hag for her help, before you went futher.
Bcs she reveals to you that you have no ordinary tadpole, therefore your character can presume that ordinary methods will not work.

As i said in previous reply, it certainly could be a trap.

Nah ...
You are not thinking as overcomfident character that believes in his skills and smarts ... maybe a bit too much.

Such character knows that there is a risk, but believes that he would see that risk soon enough, and with his own skills he will turn that risk in advantage.
Havent you seen any movie, where main character say: "Of course its a trap." ?
The point in such cases is, that traps are working on unaware targets only ... an aware target, have chance to turn the situation over ... its a risk? Sure! Its a huge and dangerous gamble that may or may not pay off. But that is the thing with gamble, more risk usualy means better reward, or that is what people expect at least.

I believe you mean "you may not have time to try another" ...
And yes you may not, but that is the case with all options ... and with anything else your character do, as exploring rest of the map, helping others, fighting gnolls, etc, etc.

It just all depends on your point of view, and on how many information your character curently have.
Few examples:

- My Gith didnt even bother with Tieflings and Druids ... since time is short, and she needed to find creche as soon as possible, so she questioned Zoru and vent to mountain pass.
- My Tiefling decided to help Tieflings, since they are her kin, and in the process rescue Halsin, since she believed that time is short and her both objectives could be completed simultaneously.
- My Drow didnt even entered the groove, since for one he would not expect warm welcome and for two, they are beneath him. But when he explored to the north he find out Goblin patrol, that was bowing to him ... that picked his curiocity, so he traveled to their camp, and find their leader ... there he find out that all of their leaders is unaware of being tadpoled, and they all are part of some cult ... he realized that he should be safe at least until they start to turn (reasons i allready described) so he decided to stick with them, and find out what is happening around here.

Gamble? Sure.
Stupid? Well, potentialy.

What do we know ...
We know that no usual way (Volo, Hag, Gut, potentialy Gith in the future...) we tryed so far isnt working, bcs our tadpole is alterned ...
We know that there is some connection between the Absolute cult and alterned tadpoles ...
We certainly know that the Absolute cult is somehow protected against the change, or at least that they should turn before us ...
We certainly know that none of tadpoled cultist know that they are tadpoled ...
If we kill (or fail to rescue) Halsin, we get his diary, where he specificly writes about tracking tadpoles origin to moonrise towers ...
If we talk to Zentharin slaver/trader, she specificly tells us that most people goblins used to sell to slavery they now send to moonrise towers ...

It seem like enough to me. O_o
Of course if we rush from the groove to goblin camp, then our information will be a little thiner.

You presume ... same as you can presume with Hag, with Gith, with Gut and with Volo ... but in his case its more about skills, than power.

First of all, you dont even know if there is any trap, since nobody expects you to get there.
Since all her followers are unaware of their tadpoles, you can presume that your knowledge of that is your advantage ... that means, if you approach the Absolute, and she will recognize you as one of her followers, just as every other you met so far do ... you might get close enough to destroy her.

Also i dont see how trying to outsmart cambion is anyhow less insane than trying to outsmart self-proclaimed goddess.
Everyone make misstake, all you need is skillfull and ambicious character that will be there to profit from that misstake. :P

Not sure if you are talking here from character perspective, or player perspective.

All i see here is complaining about this path not being clear enough to character ...
What else it would be than a secret?

Personaly i hope Githyanki chreche will be third one.
If they proove themself to be just another dead route as Hag was, i will be quite sad. :-/

I imagine it as you either join Tieflings, or you join Goblins ... or you dont join either of them, get to Gith, and there they tell you that they allready know about moonrise towers, and you need to go there first for Purification protocol to work ... and when you get back to previous map, you find out that goblins allready attacked the groove, but all leaders died during the attack and rest of both factions are gone.
Either that or groove being covered with magical thorns, and goblins being hostile to you.

I would not say "mystery" ... maybe even secret is a too strong word, just not so obvious option.

Im affraid its a little more complex ...
I believe Larian did elementary misstake when they used those words in one of feedback posts. :-/

There is kazzilion ways to define "good" or "evil" ...
And i would like to not stuck on those terms. :-/

I believe that game provides us many choices that leads to many different outcomes and there is really a LOT permutations ...
And anyone who wish to box any of those outcomes to "good" or "evil" boxes, seem shortsighted to me. :-/

Few examples:
- Your character killed Zevlor, helped Kagha to seal the groove and massacred other Tieflings, childs included, then rescued Halsin who no longer require to kill Goblin leaders, but you killed them anyway since the world will be better without them. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character tryed to persuate Kagha, but failed and killed her with all the other druids, many Tieflings died in the proces ... then you rescued Halsin and killed Goblin leaders that threatened druid groove that will soon be empty. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character redeem Kagha, showed her errors of her way, and helped her kill the shadow druids and allow Tieflings to stay as long as they need with her full support ... then you decided that cult of the Absolute will probably be your better chance, than some druid that was watching captured tadpole ... betray the groove and join the goblins. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character dont interact with Kagha, or Zevlor at all ... go straight to goblin camp, join them and raid the groove ... then you kill Minthara that will betray you, and you will be attacked by Halsin next evening ... you tell him that you hoped they will be able to help you, that now you see that you have made a worst misstake of your life and honestly regrets it ... you refuse to kill Halsin and will KO him instead. (Futher interactions depend on implementation of some interaction to knocked targets.) > Are you good or evil?
- Your character decided to help Tieflings, since they offered reward, he believe that Halsin is his best shot, and expect to find some sweet loot between those who are preparing for war ... so all from purely selfish reasons. > Are you good or evil?

World is not black and white and only a Sith deals in absolutes. :P

Dunno ... they kinda are, at least to me.

Yeah, that is concept i like ...
You have main path, and you have alternatives ...

From my perspective GM i signaling you that *this* path is straight, smooth and easy, but *that one* is also possible, if you dare.
If he dont want you to go there, he would not give you those hints. :P

May be ... and that is the fun in that relationship, we are suppose to gues what she is, she is suppose to give us puzzling answers with little certainity.

Certainly not for me.

Oh yeah, the multi-quote thing was a serious headache.

But more substantively, you've presented a lot of good arguments here, and for most of them all I can say is that your arguments are valid and make sense, but aren't enough to convince me, so we can just agree to disagree. The one place where I feel it is worth arguing is this:


When I say it doesn't feel like the Absolute path is meant to be a secret, I'm talking about how it doesn't seem like it's meant to be a secret to the player, and yet it is the player that has to pick through all the little hints and implications in order to find a good in-character reason to roleplay following the Absolute. In character I avoided the Hag because that questline did not to my character present a compelling route to getting the tadpole out, as my character never found out she was a hag who had any power that could potentially help her (and as an aside, can I say that I really kind of hate how a pretty significant piece of information regarding the nature of your tadpole is hidden behind a-from what I have been able to gather from the forums-incurable and really harsh status effect? Unless there's some way learn that information or get free of the curse that I haven't learned about yet). I ended up avoiding going to the Gith patrol because of how often it led to me getting into a combat I still failed to win after three or four attempts, and I never interacted with Volo beyond the firt meeting so if he apparently knows something I haven't learned it (why yes, my attempt to play an evil character did lead to me failing to engage with a large swath of the game, I know even more why I hate playing evil).

Basically what I'm saying is that it's easy to find reasons to trust the Druid path and it's only through picking at threads that you see reasons not to. Meanwhile with the Absolute path it's inverted and you have to pick at the same strings to find reasons to trust it. And when within the structure of the game it seems like the Absolute path is meant to be an equally viable story branch to the Druid path, I feel like the information about it should be presented in a more or less equitable way. For example in the game Tyranny, there are several paths you can take within the game, but since the game is about being on some level "villaouns," the most firmly good and heroic path requires picking through threads and spotting cues like the way you've described, while the other paths were all marked clearly. When I say the Absolute path feels like it's not meant to be a secret, that's what I mean.

I just want for someone within the game that you can easily find before you make it to the goblin fort to make the case that whatever is going on with the tadpoles isn't just a Mindflayer trap. Just one person. It doesn't have to be someone absolutely, objectively truthful, just someone who knows about the tadpole and thinks they can use the cult to control it, or something like that. Because even among your party, your companions all seem sceptical of the Absolute, even I think Astarion, who's currently the only voice in support of controling the tadpole. You have loads of people making the case for the Druids, there should be some degree of balance there for the Absolute.

See, the issue with this is that in Forgotten Realms, the world IS black and white. Good and Evil are very real, actual forces in the world. As much as I personally like morally grey situations myself (And prefer settings that include this, FR ranks pretty low for many reasons ultimately), Forgotten Realms is not this. There is not a thing of doing something bad "for the greater good".

The Larian writing does lead to that morally grey/more complex take on alignments (I think. Or it is a result of how they wrote stuff) but that is not really a thing for Forgotten Realms. Personal preferences aside, this is the setting we are stuck with.

These examples by Forgotten Realms standards would all lean to evil. In some of them very Chaotic Evil at that.

I kind of disagree, Fox,

Yes, inherent Good and Evil (capital letters) are things in the FR world space, and much is definitely governed by that truth... but people are people, and those inherent goods and evils only exist as beings that have it in their nature and don't have a choice in that matter. For everyone else, all the moral greyness of any other world is right there and absolutely exists. I've never played a D&D game where moral quandaries and grey decisions did not make up many important parts of the roleplay process. I don't think it's accurate to describe the realms as simple black and white just because the two extremes are tangibly existent. Even the mortal races that are listed as fundamentally evil (kobolds, goblins, etc.,), their actual descriptions make clear that this is based at a general and societal level, and that individual creatures are quite capable of being otherwise in the right conditions.

The realms often depict black and white situations, yes, but they have always carried with them a mountain of grey in between (well... from 3d edition at least, I'm less familiar with anything before that).

I'm with Niara on this -- Good and Evil being palpable metaphysical pillars of the natural world does not mean people stop needing to see themselves as righteous and justifying themselves and their actions. It does not give everyone an objective, innate understanding or agreement of what is good and what is evil.

The issue with FR in regard to Good and Evil is that they are actual forces that manifest and are associated with beings bound to this. The gods have their portfolios and they are associated with good/evil. This affects humans and other mortals too. If you go murder stuff, you do in essence empower gods associated with that. It is very easy and basic writing, I do prefer moral grayness and more complexity (And the better RP sessions I had in DnD type games included this). But, FR is FR. For Moral Grey stuff I just get my fix elsewhere rather than try and include it in a setting not really written for that without having inconsistensies/clashes with other lore it has. Forgotten Realms does not really lend itself for the moral grayness with how it is set up, as much as I would like to see it still (outside of CRPGs I do not really touch FR anyway, to be fair).

I think with regard to FR, sure there are actual tangible effects to evil and good acts, but how much does that actually impact most regular people? (I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms so if it actually has an impact feel free to correct me) People can still do evil things thinking they're good and there can still be moral greyness between people because the gods aren't constantly there scolding every individual person over their choices and actions. It just means for most people that when they die, they'll get to see exactly how right or wrong they were.

This seems like contradiction ...
On other site you say its not a sectet ... on other hand you say that player need to pick all litthe hints and take them together so he know this option is there.

That is definition of secret for me.

It depends ...
If your character tells her about his little problem, she will offer you her healing skills, ensuring you that she IS capable to help you. Funny part about it is that she even dont lie there.

Ofcourse you get the most if you create ridiculously thrusting character, who will tells about his little problem to anyone he can.

You mean the information about how was your tadpole alterned?
Yup there is one ...

All i can tell you is that positioning do a lot work for you.
I allways keep my caster, and ranger/rogue hidden up there "just in case something goes wrong" ... works like a charm. You will be able to kill them all even with 3lvl party (not easily, but able).

Volo is special case ...
You need to save him, offer him place in your camp and then tell him about the tadpole.
He seem very comfident about his skills and knowledge, but never offers any actual proof ... so its just the same about all others, you either thrust him ... or not.

As i explained abowe, its just matter of point of view ...

Personaly i dont find druids much thrustworthy:
- Their acting leader is openly preparing to little genocide ...
- Healer you are offered tryes to poison you first ...
- And their actual leader refuse to even hear about your problem, before he do his own work ... and he keep refusing to hear about your problem, even after you do that work for him (true, its too late to change sides at this point, but you get me ... right?)

That is the sweetest part about this group ... you dont need to thrust them at all.

Yet another contradiction ...
You say that you presume that the Absolute path should be "equally viatble story branch" ... yet you also admits that its not acting like it ... isnt that allone kinda proof that your original presumation was not quite right?

I dindt ever played tyrany, so i skip that.

I dont ...
That would mean there is some character that knows everything about the Absolute, yet its not part of her cult ... also knows everything about mind flayers, yet its not part of their hive mind ... also know everything about your particular tadpole, including the fact that you have tadpole, yet either its not tadpoled himself, or for some reason decided to NOT take advantage of all informations he have ...

The only person i can imagine that would check all theese points, yet feels natural in the story, is simply yourself. O_o
Wich, when i think about it ... seem actualy doable!

How about this scenario:
1) When you talk to Minthara, she tells you that Goblins will attack next day by dawn
2) Your quest log will update to tells you that you need to long rest, before progress futher
3) When you lay down to sleep, you get introspective conversation with yourself, sumarizing your situation ... something like:
"Before you go to sleep, you recap your so far knowledge ...
On one hand you have Tiefling refugees, maybe not all of them exactly innocent, but certainly needing your help.
You remember druids talking about Halsin, he might be able to help you, if he still lives (concidering you didnt save him yet).
On the other hand you have cult of the Absolute ... they certainly have some connection to mind flayer tadpoles ... but are they masters, or slaves?

You realize that you need to choose side in upcoming conflict, and you need to choose soon."

Then scene goes as it does now ...
You go to the gate, talk to Zevlor, blow the horn ... and then decide either to betray Zevlor, or Minthara.

All i certainly see is that you didnt asign any of my examples to neither ...
So it seem to me like it still isnt.

Good and Evil beings are real ... dont missinterpret here, there is a difference.
Even Evil character is able to do good thing, even if for Evil (read as selfish) reasons ... for example Raphael.
He (evil being) is offering you his help (good thing) bcs he want your soul (evil reason).

On the contrary ... in game itself is several chances to be as gray as you wish.

Few examples:
You can kill Kagha to help the Tieflings negotiating that they stay ...
You can kill Zevlor to help the Druids drive out Tieflings, so Kagha dont kill them, when ritual is completed ...
You can kill Myconid Sovereign, so the other tribe of Myconids can be created there ...
You can also kill old Myconid Sovereign, so the current tribe can live ...
You can poison whole goblin camp (including women, childern and civilians), so you can help Owlbear cub to escape ...

As far as i know, Alignments was repeately confrimmed as "not included" in this game ...
Not sure if they even are in last DnD ruleset. O_o

And you really think that is it ... you do something that someone concider evil, so you are evil ... no matter consequences, no matter reasons, no matter motivations, no matter anything.

Do you at least realize that every single Lawfull Good Paladin in shiny armor helping the town from bloodthirsty cobolds ... is pure evil in eyes of those cobolds?
They are home there, they were first here ... now some humans created field abowe their homeland ... and they are slaughtered by dozens, just bcs they are searching for some food.

It's not a secret to the player because it's pretty easy to run into the chance to join it. If you follow Wyll's plan to take out the goblin leaders-which is necessary to complete his companion quest-then you'll walk into Minthara and she'll present to you the option to join in on the attack at the grove and you'll have the option to join it. It's not something that the player has to work to find. Maybe I just did everything right the first time and it's actually far harder to run into that situation, if that's the case then I can admit that I'm wrong. But based on my experience it seems like playing the game normally has you running into the option to join them without particular work on the players part.


No arguments there, you're just plane right. :P


Thanks for letting me know. I have not managed to get to the Underdark at all, the puzzle was bugged in my first playthrough and I haven't been able to get through another despite starting a couple.



He offers a cure? I thought Volo was just some bard. Clearly I need to interact with him next time because I want to know what that's about.


You make a lot of good points here, I can't and won't argue with them.


When I say trust here, I mean trust that they have the capacity, the actual ability to help you at all. Not that they will help you, but that they have anything to actually offer you.


It's not a contradiction because I'm saying that it looks like it should be an equally viable branch, based on knowledge of the cRPG genre and my experiences of this specific game, as well as metatextual knowledge based on how the developers have talked about the path. Therefore when I say that it's not acting like one, that's me saying that it's failing to be the equally viable branch it seems like it's being presented as. Like how if you show me a car and I say that it's not driving because it's missing parts, I'm not saying that it's not a car, I'm saying that it's a broken car. Again, if I just am wrong about how easy it is to find a chance to join the Absolute and how obvious it's made to the player, I'll accept reasoning to the contrary.

However I will reccomend Tyranny, it's a great game with a magic system I'm still in love with to this day.



What you suggest wouldn't strictly be a bad approach, but I don't think that what I suggested requires someone who knows all the things you claim they know. It's the same way people keep saying Halsin can help even though they don't know that for an objective fact, as you've said before. It would just need to be someone who knows they've got a tadpole and thinks that the cult looks good. Frankly, I think that even just having a member of your party being in favour of the cult would achieve more or less the same result. Someone making a case that joining the cult is a good idea. They don't need to be anymore trustworthy than any of the people pointing you to Halsin.

On anothr note, I just want to make sure you know that while I am arguing against your points, I don't intend there to be any contention. I think your points are all valid and while I disagree, I do understand where you're coming from.

These things are not gray at all, honestly. You kill someone in their own grove so guests/visitors can stay. Pretty evil.
Killing someone just to drive a group of refugees out. Pretty evil.
Killing a creature just so another tribe can settle there. Evil.
Poisoning sentient creatures, including children just so some random wild animal can escape is evil. (The killing in itself isn't neccesarily as goblins are evil creatures themselves. Poisoning might be closest to the morally grey, but the context here and the reason is kind of bad)

I do not know enough about the myconid story to judge on the other thing, context may define that situation better.

Morally gray is not just doing a bad thing for a good cause, that is not how Forgotten Realms work. It may be a thing for anti-heroes, sure. But those are not really morally gray in these situations. Killing people/stuff just to get something done is kind of easily defined as evil

I never claimed its "well hidden secret, that one must uncover for hours.
Just a secret ... from definition, anything people dont tell you can be concidered a secret.

Well, yes ... but patch 3 added there some inner speaking, that i cant quite quote, since its some time allready ... where your character is thinking about using that option to simply lure her out and take advantage against her and her army.

Are you absolutely sure? Since i allready seen some people saing that puzzle was bugged ... yet they just had it the other way round.
Also, there are if i count right at least 4 entrances into the underdark ... you just need to keep searching.

Yeah ... just make sure you saved your game.

Actualy you do ...
As i described abowe, and as you confrimed.
They all 3 are tadpoled ... they are tadpoled certainly longer than you ... they are perfectly healthy ... therefore they are protected ... what have they in common, they all worship the same new Goddess, that seem to be connected to tadpoles ... therefore maybe if i wish to be protected to study my condition, i need to join them ...
I would not be able to join them, if i massacre them for Tieflings ... Do i care about Tieflings? Nope. Do i care about the Druids? Not even close. Do i owe anything to them? Nah. ... Is there any reason to let them stand in my way? Not at all.

And even more actualy you dont even need to believe even that.
Lets say if you create character simmilar to Wyll, or someone with his Ego ... you might not even care about tadpole, since he actualy seem to not care about anything too much.

And therefore asumption that should be "equally viable branch it seems like it's being presented as" ... might be false. O_o

This is not good example, since you know its a car and there is no doubt, and no argue about it.

It seems, to use simmilar example ...
Like you were examining an engine ... you would presume its a Car engine, even tho some parts dont quite look like other Car engines you know, but concidering its veight, its size, and look of those parts you recognize ... it seem a lot like Car engine ...
Then you find out its Bike engine, pretty massive one, and certainly that kind you would never expect in Bike ... but that dont change its purpose.

There is your contradiction ...
Base thesis of cult is that everyone in its leadership believes that their powers, are given by their Goddess ... not by parasitic tadpole.
So anyone involved fiting those parameters ... could not be involved from that reason.

Yes, that sounds like good possibility.
I thinked that you mean some NPC from within the cult.

And since Larian confrimmed that we dont have all companions so far, its still potentialy opened.

My intention was never to persuade anyone, i simply state my opinion ...
As long as its clear, i have good feeling that i did my job right. Who will take what of it, that is not up to me to decide.
Im glad there is at least someone on this forum capable of actual discusion ... so far i usualy get only repeating the same.

More like "so people who were offered asylum from actual leader of the grove are not driven out to certain death" ...
But if killing someone in their own grove is a evil thing ... is killing Goblins, or even just their leaders, inside their own camp also Evil?

I see you probably didnt tryed that option ...
I should be more specific, my misstake.

In this case you are simple messenger, you are coming to Zevlor with message from Kagha, that she is demanding his people to move out right now ... she even asked you to offer them guarding on the way. Sadly, you never get to that, since once you get Zevlor Kagha's message, he attacks you.

I wonder how do you like human history.
Is also evil to wipe out Kobold nest to build a safer village there?
Its also evil to kill Kobolds around that same village a hundert years later, since those creatures are "endangering the helpless people who lives there for generations" ?

To be specific, goblins are Neutral Evil ... meaning pure pragmatism and selfishness.
I dont see much difference from humans, to be honest.

Sentience is relevant therm ...
Especialy since Larian created "talk with animals" like they are completely able to create whole sentences.
Also you helped that animal, so it can escape all torture and misstreatment it would get from goblins ... quite noble act, if you ask me.
You are just diminishing that animal, since it walks on all four limbs, and it dont talk usual way ...
I believe in world, where is pretty much possible to walk into half man half dragon / cat / hyena / bird / snake / lizzard / even the elephant ... and many more, the expresion of "sentient" is a little loosened.

You seem to have different definion than myself ...
You are only talking about what is not morally gray ... rather tell me what is?

I dunno ... it seems to me like all that Good / Neutral / Evil aligment stuff in DnD is working only with postscript "toward protagonists" ...
I dont believe that if one Goblin do something to another being, they concider that to be Evil ... those are simply things they usualy do, nothing more.

I mean, you are trying to pick apart my explanations/summaries with semantics that do not quite work in a black and white world. I have tried all the options (some several times, except the myconid one) so I was able to base my response around contect too.

Also nobody said human history was full of good guys. Aside from our world not being a world were forces of Good and Evil can literally manifest, human history is full of awful stuff. Stuff that is definatly very evil if we are to speak in those terms.


Correct. Because then we would be dwelling more to other settings (Or real life, I suppose. As you sort of semi-mentioned that. But that is a different thing alltogether). The tendacy to pick every single sentence apart did not really make me too invested in the situation to start looking for, and writing examples admittedly. It would also end up straying far off-topic which is not a thing anyone wants. So I kept it related to Forgotten Realms, the setting BG3 is set in.

I take it as "actualy i dont know".

It is more a "I do not care enough to try and argue with one stranger on the internet who is adamant on being right and going off-topic while doing it" but.. hey. Take it as you will. I am not losing sleep over it and do not feel a need to prove myself and nitpick every bit of argument someone else makes.

I would not call answering simple question an argue ...
But hey, if you wish to have plugged ears, closed eyes and feel like you being right just bcs you yell louder ... i gues you can.

Cut out the snarkiness here.

Just started another playthrough (hopefully not going to finish it due to patch4 arriving :P) - THERE ABSOLUTELY IS a reason not to trust Lae'zel: In the conversation after her interrogation of Zorru, you can peer into her thoughts ([WISDOM]) and it becomes clear she is hiding something regarding the purification, so, yeah...

My guess it's going to be something like: "They are going to perform the purification on me (maybe), but you slaves are going to be fed to the dragons."

Buy it might be something else regarding the purification.