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UI, Controls, QoL : Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5.
Roleplay, Story, Immersion : Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.
Mechanisms : Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4.




IMMERSION, CREDIBILITY AND UNDERSTANDABILITY




Naturally, I'm well aware that I'm playing a video game. And there are many conventions of the genre that I willingly accept (characters have Hit Points, I manage my companions' inventories, etc). But for a video game's story to work, for immersion to be maintained, what happens in the game must make sense within the world where it takes place.

Currently, a number of elements are very problematic. At best, they make it hard to understand what is supposedly happening in the game. At worst, they make the game self-contradictory. They are strong and frequent breakers of immersion.


Where is the camp ?

Is it a mobile camp, that we set up where we are ? Or is it a static camp, and if so where is it located exactly ?

If it is a mobile camp, we should not be able to rest everywhere. Time passes while we rest and we may be found by guards or roaming monsters. And the camp scenery should change. And not all followers should be there at all times. And we cannot have a low-strength party send all of Roah's barrels to camp. Etc.

If it is a static camp, we should be able to walk to the camp normally from the main map. Also, when in a dungeon, we might backtrack to our camp with fast-travel (or, better, backtrack to a waypoint point first) but on the way back, we should probably only be able to reappear at the entrance (or at the nearest waypoint point). Again, time passes and guards might have been replaced.

At the moment, the fact that we can sleep anywhere tends to indicate that it is a mobile camp. But the fact that folks come celebrate at our camp tends to indicate that it is somewhere specific. (Side note : why do we still sleep in the wild when there's a Druid Grove nearby, with caves that are probably safer and drier than the wilderness ?)

Please don't give us a Schrödinger camp that is both mobile and static, and thus is whatever you need it to be at any given time. That is what the current camp is, and it really, really doesn't work. You can't have both. Make a choice, any choice, figure out an explanation for everything that stems from that choice, and then be consistent.


How does time work ? It doesn't pass, except it does.

On the one hand, the story and the dialogues clearly involve time ("we don't have time for rest", "two days have past, still no symptoms").

On the other hand, the rest of the game categorically refuses to take time into account. There are no day/night cycles, no guard shifts and dead sentinels renewals, not the slightest difference between long and short rest (the latter of which takes 0 rounds). I cannot tell how many days have passed since the crash.

Unsurprisingly, the two positions are not compatible. You have invested so much (in writing, voice acting, etc) on "time is a thing" that you can hardly change that. Also, you would have difficulty justifying a world where times does not pass. So, please, figure out ways to account for time, find the mechanisms, and deliver the explanations in-game.


Are waypoints part of the game world ? They are, but only for the players of the game.

On the one hand, you made Gale have a line about them, so they exist in the game world.

On the other hand, only the characters controlled by us players can use them. The tieflings don't consider this option to travel to Baldur's Gate. The goblins don't raise so much as an eyebrow when we casually we walk out of one, right next to them. The portals lie scattered in the wild when such a means of transportation would have major historical, economic and geopolitical implications.

Again, that doesn't work. Having them exist in-universe has world-building implications, which are a problem now that you have started writing a story that ignores their existence.

It would be a lot simpler to use them strictly as a quality-of-life feature that is not part of the world. So players can use them but it is implied that the characters walked the whole way in the game world. And then, don't have a character give us a tutorial about them in-game : this breaks the fourth wall. And you already have another way to give players tutorials.


The ability to initiate conversations using a companion leads to characterisation issues.

Am I playing as the PC and interacting with independent companions or am I in full control of a party of adventurers ?

On the one hand, you have created companions with their own personalities. Sometimes my PC will be forced to talk to them, sometimes they will interject in a conversation that my PC initiated with an NPC, sometimes they approve/disapprove of what my PC says. So they are established as their own individuals. Pretty clear.

On the other hand, if I initiate a conversation using a companion, I can have them select lines that are completely out of character (like Wyll approving of Kagha, Lae'zel licking Crusher's foot, etc).

That hurts immersion.


What character am I playing ? According to cutscenes, it is not clear.

Sometimes, I initiate a conversation with an NPC using a companion and then this companion is talking in the cutscene. But sometimes it is my PC talking in the cutscene.

This is extremely confusing and immersion breaking. Either go with my choice of character all the time, or say that my PC is talking all the time. Breaking your own rules at arbitrary times is not good.


What character am I supposed to play as ? According to the mechanisms, it is not clear.

The current mechanism for skill checks in conversations (which I comment on below) incentivises me to conduct almost every conversation with the party's most charismatic character, which may well not be my PC.

But, if I initiate a conversation using a companion instead of the PC, I often lose an opportunity to gain approval/disapproval for my PC. (Weirdly though, I still see approvals sometimes.) This mechanism incentivise me to conduct almost every conversation with the PC.

So the game mechanisms are currently self-contradictory. It seems that "you are your PC" is the way to play intended by the writing. And this is how we would play in a TT RPG, which you said you wanted to make the game feel like. But at least one mechanism goes completely against this. The game mechanisms should be aligned with the writing and the intended behaviour, not clash against it.

Quite possibly, using a companion to initiate a conversation should not be possible at all.


On-the-fly vs scripted : cutscenes and battles.

Many cutscenes and most battles are dynamically created : they go with what led to them. This ranges from conversations cutscenes (well ... most of them, see above) to the "connect the transponder" cutscene at the end of the prologue. But some of them are pre-rendered, and occasionally lead to absurd situations, which breaks immersion.

Examples :
- In the prologue, after the first imps, when going to the deck with only the PC, Lae'zel still appears in the cutscene, even though I left her downstairs. After the cinematics, she's downstairs again !
- In the battle of the Druid Grove gate, when I trigger the cutscene, I'm on top of the hill with one character to the left. When the battle starts, a goblin archer is in melee range, ready for the shove. I'm not sure how he sneaked there but it was a very, very stupid decision on his part ...




******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************



OUR CHOICES THROUGH STORY




Equally well-written story paths.


The various story paths should all be equally motivated, credible, and rewarding from a story point of view. Otherwise, we are not given a real choice.

For now, one story path I can really see is the clear and standard "Tadpole-removal path" that we start on. It sounds fine.

The only other path that I could glimpse, but that can imagine, is the "Tadpole-control path". The "siding with goblins subpath", in the goblins-vs-grove arc, seems to be a component of the "Tadpole-control path", and it really isn't good.

My hope is that this is because the game is still at very early stage, and that the "siding with goblins subpath" that we are currently proposed, and which you seem to equate with "choosing Evil" in a Community Update, is just a draft. It is possible that this path wasn't ready, but since you had publicly encouraged us to go evil, whatever there was already for this so-called "Evil path" had to be included for the EA release. Or any variant of that scenario. I hope much better motivations for this subpath are developed.


Reasons to have any interest in the Absolute.

My characters have heard of no reason why they could want to join the cult of the Absolute, either genuinely or as a self-serving characters planning to use the cult.

We can somewhat gather that there's a link between the Absolute and our tadpoles. We seem to be True Souls pawns-to-be who failed to be properly created, because of the Githyanki attack. The Absolute then sent Edowin to destroy the botched puppets (or weapons) that we now are.

So, at the moment, I don't see why the characters could want to get any more involved with the Absolute, on their own initiative.

Note : as a player, I can think of reasons. The characters could want to go kick the Absolute' ass and force Her to remove the tadpoles or explain how to control them. But the characters don't seem to voice anything like that. I believe that, as a player, I'm not supposed to try to rationalise what happens in the world or make up explanations to fill gaps.


Better reasons to join the goblins and destroy the grove.

We want a solution to the life-threatening tadpole problem, be it removal or control. We quickly find that there is no solution with the goblins, if we ever learned there could be one. And we most likely have realised this before we are offered to join. However, there might be a solution with Halsin, who we have most likely heard of. So we certainly cannot join the goblins on that ground : this will likely result in killing a potential solution, which is possibly our only remaining solution. So it's not just that there is no good reason to join the goblins, there is also an overwhelmingly good reason to prevent them from raiding the Grove.

If we just seek to fight the battle on the side that would pay us better, Zevlor promises to give us whatever he can get, Minthara promises only the gratitude of the Absolute : see above.

Conclusion : ... I see no reason to join the goblins. Saving Halsin and protecting the grove sounds like the only reasonable choice.


Better reasons to go to the Moonrise Tower.

If we have sided with the grove : it's pretty clear. Halsin can't help us, but he points to a possible solution at the Moonrise Tower.

If we have sided with the goblins : well ... we spend a night with Minthara, she's immediately very in love with us (how cute !), then she wants to kill us, but she refrains from doing it if we ask her nicely (how kind ... typical Drow), so she says we must go to Moonrise tower. Why ? Er ... because the Absolute wants us to stop breathing and being alive and all that, so ... maybe we can go there, have a cup of tea with a representative of the Absolute and talk things out in a civilised fashion ? Or something. I confess, I really didn't understand that part.



Telling our own story, to some extent.


Letting players have control over the story of their characters.

Please make sure that not too many major paths or quests are locked behind skill check bottlenecks.

Of course, to a very good extent, not every party can expect to solve every situation in the same way, and experience the exact same adventure. Especially in a tabletop setting where players would play the campaign only once. You have your vision of how this adventure should be experienced. But players should be able to enjoy the video game in more than one way. Some players will be happy to go with the dice : they may attempt to persuade X to do Y, and if it fails, they'll go with it. Other players will want to call the beats.

Could you add an option in the options menu to modify (increase or decrease) the DC of skill checks that have long-term effects in the game (story paths, camp followers, meet-again characters, etc) ?

Note that while I say "some players" and "other players", they may well be the same people. In my first playthrough, I'll be happy to take the story as it comes. In my second one, I'll be happy to discover how different some things could go when some dice land a bit differently and I make different decisions. But after some more playthroughs, I will want to tell my story : "this PC will have this personality, make these choices, succeed at this check but fail at that check, etc".


Companions should approve/disapprove my choices, not how the dice landed.

If I tried to defuse a situation, I think that conflict-averse companions should realistically approve of the attempt. The fact that the dice rolled unfavourably is out of the character's control : if the target is stubborn and choose to fight, they are the cause, not me.



Choosing how to handle encounters.


We should get XP when resolving an encounter without a fight.

It should be surviving the encounter that counts, not the method employed. If fights are the only method rewarded with XP, it makes it less appealing to talk our way out.

Obviously, players shouldn't be able to exploit this to get double XP. If the potential enemies leave (like Gimblebock's group), no problem. If they stay (like the goblin ambushers in the Blighted Village), their killing should give 0 XP.




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I was getting ready to jump in with a "On story and RP, this is going to be heavily subjective" by-line... but reading over your thought here, I have to say that they are phrased almost entirely as objective commentaries on general principles and practices, and I fully support what you have to say here.

I will note that as of the latest patch, we do get portional XP for diffusing and resolving some situations, where before we did not, but it's not really enough to balance the scales yet.

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A lot if agreement found here.


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My biggest concern about the current camp system is that Larian tries to be nice to braindead Noobs.

But even on my first playthrough I wasn't so bad a pitiful excuse for a player, that I needed to camp-rest after every battle.
I ask for the powermove to have a camp only at a certain location.
Otherwise you just can't rest, easy as that.

A camp spot in
° the Crypt where we find the "Lich"(?)
° the Druids Grove
° the hidden Necromancers cellar in the destroyed City
° the ruined Fort of Selune in the Underdark
° The abandonded Tower of Mystra's Cleric in the Underdark

Basically places not accessable by folk of questionable trust levels.
A little harder to find, but feel rewarding if you found them.
Cause you don't have to backtrack about 2 or 4 minutes.

Some camps have to be cleared and conquered first, others can get lost during the development of certain events.
I see it being kind of a problem if the Druid grove camp is still there in the real world when its part of the Shadowdruids realm-contortion.
Stuff like this.

The "Rest for the Wicked" as Raphael named it, indeed it doesn't feel "real" and kind of like a pocket dimension.

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A lot of good and valid points... i usually tend to more notice mechanic shortcomings over immersion type but i definitely recall many of the instances you highlight... a lot of work to do before official launch!

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really good points and questions. i really-really hope they will tweak camping and fast travel options, at least give us separate mode to enable alternative rules how they are handled. the EA has great potential as is but on the long run it gets a little bit boring for me, because the free fast travel and unlimited resting just takes the challenge away. And i know some people say then dont use these and please dont restrict but still, come on, dnd rules are implemented around immersive exploration (tactical resting between encounters, preparation for long travel), resource management (spell slot allocation, item and action management) and a game stays fun on long term only if its somewhat challenging (please give us an altern save mode where i cannot save in combat for example). larian's motto is that i give you systems to overcome challenges, if there is no challenge i dont have the urge to use the systems. i trust them though, based on their past they are pretty good in listening to feedback and make even meaningful changes

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Awesome feedback, awesome post ... i hope most of your points will be readed and taken to concideration ...
But there is a few things i would like to speak about, if you dont mind:

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
How does time work ? It doesn't pass, except it does.

On the one hand, the story and the dialogues clearly involve time ("we don't have time for rest", "two days have past, still no symptoms").

On the other hand, the rest of the game categorically refuses to take time into account. There are no day/night cycles, no guard shifts and dead sentinels renewals, not the slightest difference between long and short rest (the latter of which takes 0 rounds). I cannot tell how many days have passed since the crash.

Unsurprisingly, the two positions are not compatible. You have invested so much (in writing, voice acting, etc) on "time is a thing" that you can hardly change that. Also, you would have difficulty justifying a world where times does not pass. So, please, figure out ways to account for time, find the mechanisms, and deliver the explanations in-game.
I believe this problem is selfsolving ...
Once some implementation need of regular long rests will be there ... we also get some sence of time.
We will simply travel by day, and sleep by night ... kinda shame, that we would probably not be able to turn it around, but no gameplay is perfect.

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Are waypoints part of the game world ? They are, but only for the players of the game.

On the one hand, you made Gale have a line about them, so they exist in the game world.

On the other hand, only the characters controlled by us players can use them. The tieflings don't consider this option to travel to Baldur's Gate. The goblins don't raise so much as an eyebrow when we casually we walk out of one, right next to them. The portals lie scattered in the wild when such a means of transportation would have major historical, economic and geopolitical implications.

Again, that doesn't work. Having them exist in-universe has world-building implications, which are a problem now that you have started writing a story that ignores their existence.

It would be a lot simpler to use them strictly as a quality-of-life feature that is not part of the world. So players can use them but it is implied that the characters walked the whole way in the game world. And then, don't have a character give us a tutorial about them in-game : this breaks the fourth wall. And you already have another way to give players tutorials.
Or ... they can add one or two sentences about why they cant be used.

For example when talking to Zevlor:
Why dont you use waystone? > Do you know how to find waystone in Baldur's Gate without previous visitation? > I dont. > Neither do we.

Or when talking to Minthara:
Why dont you use waystone? > Do you know how to find waystone in Druid Groove without previous visitation? > I dont. > Neither do we.
Why dont you use waystone? > Do you know how to find waystone in Druid Groove without previous visitation? > I acutaly allready visited it, you can join me on my way back. > Good thinking. But how could i know that this is not a trap ... i shall send army on foot anyway, its not that far.

About this im more sad about the fact that we are unable to ask Gale where from was he teleported to us.

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Reasons to have any interest in the Absolute.

My characters have heard of no reason why they could want to join the cult of the Absolute, either genuinely or as a self-serving characters planning to use the cult.

We can somewhat gather that there's a link between the Absolute and our tadpoles. We seem to be True Souls pawns-to-be who failed to be properly created, because of the Githyanki attack. The Absolute then sent Edowin to destroy the botched puppets (or weapons) that we now are.

So, at the moment, I don't see why the characters could want to get any more involved with the Absolute, on their own initiative.

Note : as a player, I can think of reasons. The characters could want to go kick the Absolute' ass and force Her to remove the tadpoles or explain how to control them. But the characters don't seem to voice anything like that. I believe that, as a player, I'm not supposed to try to rationalise what happens in the world or make up explanations to fill gaps.
I believe that your character "have heard of no reason" is a good thing ...
Since not everything need to be told specificly, people should be able to read between lines, observe the world around them and make decisions based on what they see, hear, or believe ... i dont really need to see every tiny option to be highlihted and provided with enough encouraging to try it ... i have option, now its up to me if i use it or not, or why i use it or not.

My characters have found multiple reasons to join the absolute ... that dont mean that your characters are wrong, they simply dont fit to this kind of story, simmilar as mine dont fit to yours. I dont see that as problem, its just variety. :-/

You say what we can gather info ... but you seem to forget few things:
- we also can gather the fact, that the Absolute is promising better life for Drows, Duegars, Goblins, and other "evil" races ...
- we also can observe the fact, that every one of "important" people in this cult is tadpoled ... but they dont know it, we do, that gives us advantage ... also the same observation reveals to our character that reversed, it means that every tadpoled person in this cult, do have important role ... so logicaly, if we join them, we are starting between upper class ...
- we can also observe that none of those people is showing any sighns of health problems, or transformation ... so we can presume that they either have found a cure, or that our condition is not as crittical as it may seem ...
- and last but certainly not least, the best place to figure out what is happening with those tadpoles ... is logicaly place, where people do have tadpoles ... or if not best, its at least better than place where nobody knows what is happening to you, nobody ever seen anything like it, and everyone who will find out what happened to you will try to kill you on sight. laugh

So i believe there is enough clues, you just dont have them served on silver plate ... and i like it to be honest ... i dont want to be pulled by hand, stick to the road every single step, i want option to rebel and go another way, now i have it ... and if there will be reasoning and encouraging added, i will loose it, since instead of have feeling that i have found hidden route, i shall stand on illuminated intersection with detailed signs. frown

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Better reasons to join the goblins and destroy the grove.

We want a solution to the life-threatening tadpole problem, be it removal or control. We quickly find that there is no solution with the goblins, if we ever learned there could be one. And we most likely have realised this before we are offered to join. However, there might be a solution with Halsin, who we have most likely heard of. So we certainly cannot join the goblins on that ground : this will likely result in killing a potential solution, which is possibly our only remaining solution. So it's not just that there is no good reason to join the goblins, there is also an overwhelmingly good reason to prevent them from raiding the Grove.

If we just seek to fight the battle on the side that would pay us better, Zevlor promises to give us whatever he can get, Minthara promises only the gratitude of the Absolute : see above.

Conclusion : ... I see no reason to join the goblins. Saving Halsin and protecting the grove sounds like the only reasonable choice.
I shall probably repeat myself ... but i believe this conclusion is just result of limited point of view. :-/

> First what we quickly find out with the goblins is the fact that our condition is NOT life-threatening ... at least not now, and as it seem not in near future.
Since every single one tadpoled person we met, is perfectly healthy and dont show any signs of transformation ... we actualy will find out even before we enter goblin camp, and its by that dying Dwarf true soul ... he was send to kill us, therefore he was not on same Nautiloid as we were ... therefore he probably did have tadpole in his head longer than we did ... BUT! tadpole that crawled out of his head was normal, no signs of any transformation ... and since we know (and i presume that our characters do know too) that tadpoles actualy ARE mind flayers, that will alter our body and merge with it to single new entity, i think is quite logical to presume that tadpole should be looking differently, if there was any progress of Ceremorphosis in his host.
Also, we never find out that goblins are unable to help us ... all we find out is that Priestess Gut is quite unwilling. smile

> Second we find that there is potential solution to our problem, since only one thing that seem to bind theese people together, except the fact that they all were tadpoled, is the fact that they are all worshiping the Absolute ... our character can easily presume that the Absolute could for some reason somehow shield her believers against negative effects of being tadpoled.

> We cannot be offered to join ... its once aggain logicaly pesumed that we want to join, why else would we be in goblin camp to either join or attack them ... since we are clearly no merchants, or slavers, and since they allready have both presented in their own cute little halfling ... so, since we are not attacking, they are talking to us presuming we want to join them.
And it feels right to me, since what else could we do in that camp? Spy? On goblins? laugh What could we hope to spy out ... that goblins are ugly filthy beasts that plan to attack anyone and anything within their reach? That is common knowlenge. smile

> About Halsin ... yes i understand why so many people like this character, i like him too, and in mine WElf-Ranger gameplay i gived him as much thrust as you do here ... but i would like to advise agains doing it in general ...
First of all, the only person who knows about what do you need from Halsin is Nettie ... the wery same Nettie who tryed to kill you, once she find out your condition ... second, all she tells you is that Halsin MAY BE able to help you, yes he is certainly better option than Nettie, but that certainly dont mean that he is best and only option you have ... and finaly, when you search whole goblin camp you dont find any druid, just caged bear. And unless you have animal speaking active, there is no way to say for certain (its quite obvious tho, i know) that is him. So your character can aswell presume that remains of Halsin is allready in some goblins belly. :P
- And just to add against Halsin ... if you want to pinpoint best solution to your problem, based on count of recomendations ... its Githyanki creche ... for one they are most familiar with mind flayers across whole Faerun and beyond, for two they make nasty habit to kill those things so they logicaly need to know something, for three Lae'zel dont shut up about it and mock every single other option, and finaly even Shadowhearth who hates Gith and all they do most, after few talks agree to try them.

Next point ... you say that Zevlor is side who will pay us better ... lets do some math:
First of all, in patch 3 we are able to persuate Minthara to pay us for help ... not sure if that was there before.
Then keep in mind that Zevlor is repeating us multiple times in our conversations that "we dont have much" ... that is quite important, since it quite clearly tells you that you cant expect giant amount of gold, just little something they manage to withdraw between themself ...
Then keep in mind, that if you fail that persuation option i mentioned, Minthara specificly tells you that anything you manage to scrap of their corpses is entirely yours ... that mean you for certain will have everything they manage to withdraw between themself, since Zevlor logicaly have no clue about your betrayal ... and more, since they certainly will not give you litteraly "everything they have". wink
So ... logicaly, Goblin side is certainly offering much better payment. wink

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Better reasons to go to the Moonrise Tower.

If we have sided with the grove : it's pretty clear. Halsin can't help us, but he points to a possible solution at the Moonrise Tower.

If we have sided with the goblins : well ... we spend a night with Minthara, she's immediately very in love with us (how cute !), then she wants to kill us, but she refrains from doing it if we ask her nicely (how kind ... typical Drow), so she says we must go to Moonrise tower. Why ? Er ... because the Absolute wants us to stop breathing and being alive and all that, so ... maybe we can go there, have a cup of tea with a representative of the Absolute and talk things out in a civilised fashion ? Or something. I confess, I really didn't understand that part.
How exactly did you find out how much in love with us she is? O_o
Since all i can see was her admiring our power, power that is not advisable to play with ... and out of her (for Drow so typical actualy) self-preservation, she decided to exhaust us, and try to kill us in our sleep ... then it all depends ...

- either she hate us, since we desecrate her, when we was diging in her mind ... and just try her luck.
- or she pitty what she must do, but we once aggain show her our power, and she understand that (once aggain, acutaly typical for Drow) ... then it depends on your point of wiev, either she is sending us to someone far stronger than her (just another threason where she save her own skin, and get rid of problem, by single move) ... or she really believe that we are Absolute favorite, and then consistently with her believes, she send us to her Goddess, to judge our worth (aka, admiting that she was wrong ... not so Drow, but undersandable).
- or she again pitty what she must do, but we push to her personal feelings ... quite simmilar result, the only difference here is it seem more personal, yet we still dont know if she really helps us, or simply betray us once aggain ... you know what i mean right? Even such thrustworthy race as Drow can lie. laugh

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Letting players have control over the story of their characters.

Please make sure that not too many major paths or quests are locked behind skill check bottlenecks.

Of course, to a very good extent, not every party can expect to solve every situation in the same way, and experience the exact same adventure. Especially in a tabletop setting where players would play the campaign only once. You have your vision of how this adventure should be experienced. But players should be able to enjoy the video game in more than one way. Some players will be happy to go with the dice : they may attempt to persuade X to do Y, and if it fails, they'll go with it. Other players will want to call the beats.

Could you add an option in the options menu to modify (increase or decrease) the DC of skill checks that have long-term effects in the game (story paths, camp followers, meet-again characters, etc) ?

Note that while I say "some players" and "other players", they may well be the same people. In my first playthrough, I'll be happy to take the story as it comes. In my second one, I'll be happy to discover how different some things could go when some dice land a bit differently and I make different decisions. But after some more playthroughs, I will want to tell my story : "this PC will have this personality, make these choices, succeed at this check but fail at that check, etc".
This certainly sounds like yet another part of "dificiulty settings" they should implement. smile


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I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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Totally on board with the pocket-plane, rest, intra-dimensional highway runes, and eternal summer-afternoon comments.

Hence, I will repeat my suggestions:

--> Use the fast-travel rune locations as fixed situated spots where the party is allowed to camp.

--> Add night/day toggle and some minimal NPC schedules or dynamism in the world to make it feel like a real living world instead of the static one-directional (why come back if nothing changes?) dollhouse situation we have now.

--> Some form of random encounters or simply scripted NPC activity would go a long way here, e.g. goblin/bandit raiding parties, merchant caravans, farmers, travelers, etc.).

Although the world, map en locations are nice and well thought, I think it is too focused on creating a very specific setting for quests/puzzles/combat and too little on representing the in game world as a living setting having its own stuff going on.

As it is now, it feels as if we as lvl1 players are in a world where everything exists only because of us and where all the inhabitants except our party are stuck in an infinite timeloop.

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, it just baffles me how such very obvious and essential elements to crafting a believable immersive in-game universe are missing.

Hopefully, some of our concerns will be addressed during EA. At the very least, it would be nice to have a response, even if it is a negative one. At least I would know that I could stop ranting about this and focus my feedback on other aspects of the game.Looking forward to the next patch...

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I have to admit I didn't read all your topics because you wrote A LOT, but as soon as I reade one I usually agree with everything...


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Originally Posted by Niara
I was getting ready to jump in with a "On story and RP, this is going to be heavily subjective" by-line... but reading over your thought here, I have to say that they are phrased almost entirely as objective commentaries on general principles and practices, and I fully support what you have to say here.
Thanks. On roleplay and story, like on everything else, I tried to say "this doesn't work" more than "I'd suggest this". And as much as possible, I tried to put the finger on why, exactly, it doesn't work.

There are issues for which I don't have suggestions, and others for which I have some ideas. But I mostly don't care how Larian solve the problems, so long as they solve them.


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I have to admit I didn't read all your topics because you wrote A LOT, but as soon as I reade one I usually agree with everything...
No worries. I wasn't hoping for everyone to read everything. Just wanted to see if I had let incorrect things slip in my feedback. I intend to send to Larian what is, in effect, a long list explaining why their current version of the game is bad, on many levels and approaches. So I'd rather minimise the number of times I say "this is poor design/bad/makes no sense" when, in fact, it's my comment that makes no sense.

@SerraSerra : off-topic, but I like your avatar. I used to have 4 copies of it back in the days smile

I'm also baffled at some things. I'll try to (re)formulate it better in the future, but here's one attempt : I can't begin to understand how Larian works. I completely understand that it's EA, so a lot is currently missing, and I have no (huge) issue with placeholder and "this content is not available yet". I nearly applauded when I saw a cinematics saying about just that. What baffles me are :
- Self-contradicting mechanisms, writing, and promotional speech.
- Core things that are not just missing, but where it's not clear that Larian has figured out yet how they'll handle them. It's highly personal and subjective though. If I undertook such a large scale creative project, I'd personally want to have a much clearer roadmap drafted instead of thinking "let's set sail and we'll figure out the problems and solutions as they pop up".
- The fact that they were happy to let us in that early.

Anyway, I'm just baffled by the approach. I don't think there are too many issues where they have created themselves insoluble problems. And even when they have (e.g. waypoints), they can drop some of the choices they did (e.g. Gale explaining what the waypoints are), and not lose too much work.

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Strong agree with everything that was said here. Realistically, nobody will succeed at everything and fail at everything, but the big story decisions shouldn't be dice rolls and companions should approve of the intent, not the outcome (with exceptions where it makes sense, of course).

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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Reasons to have any interest in the Absolute.

My characters have heard of no reason why they could want to join the cult of the Absolute, either genuinely or as a self-serving characters planning to use the cult.

We can somewhat gather that there's a link between the Absolute and our tadpoles. We seem to be True Souls pawns-to-be who failed to be properly created, because of the Githyanki attack. The Absolute then sent Edowin to destroy the botched puppets (or weapons) that we now are.

So, at the moment, I don't see why the characters could want to get any more involved with the Absolute, on their own initiative.

Note : as a player, I can think of reasons. The characters could want to go kick the Absolute' ass and force Her to remove the tadpoles or explain how to control them. But the characters don't seem to voice anything like that. I believe that, as a player, I'm not supposed to try to rationalise what happens in the world or make up explanations to fill gaps.

In my last playthrough, this plot hole was somewhat addressed with a (easy to miss) conversation with Volo. Turns out if you side with the goblins while Volo is at your camp, at the goblin celebration he starts querying you about why you chose to betray the tieflings. You get various options to justify your actions and Volo has some interesting responses to all of them.

The only other time where the question is addressed that I found is when Zevlor realizes your treachery, one of your dialogue options is something to the effect of "I'm sorry, joining the Absolute is my only chance to find the cure to my sickness", but you get no more details than this.

So I agree, it's a pretty glaring weak point in an otherwise solid game plot.

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The ability to initiate conversations using a companion leads to characterisation issues.

Am I playing as the PC and interacting with independent companions or am I in full control of a party of adventurers ?

On the one hand, you have created companions with their own personalities. Sometimes my PC will be forced to talk to them, sometimes they will interject in a conversation that my PC initiated with an NPC, sometimes they approve/disapprove of what my PC says. So they are established as their own individuals. Pretty clear.

On the other hand, if I initiate a conversation using a companion, I can have them select lines that are completely out of character (like Wyll approving of Kagha, Lae'zel licking Crusher's foot, etc).

That hurts immersion.

I really agree with this one, so much so that I'm thinking of making an independent thread for it. Companions are autonomous characters in the world with their own opinions and motivation, it makes no sense that I would get limited control of their dialogue options to contradict their preestablished characterisation. Especially since sometimes I just happen to have a random companion selected when a dialogue initiates, and I have no way of changing it without going back.

I remember I had shadowheart selected when I initiated the lae'zel recruitment dialogue when she's in the cage. I wanted to recruit lae'zel and save her, but its clear that shadowheart doesn't want that. But because she happens to lead the conversation, I had to express my decisions through her character instead of my own where it makes sense, which broke immersion when she hates lae'zel immediately after.

Honestly the solution for me is simple, don't allow us to lead conversation as companion characters. Always have it be the player character, and add a mechanic where party members can intervene either autonomously or through hand selected dialogue options specific for their character (that doesn't allow for blatant contradictions).

I don't understand the rationale of this mechanic, its not like a dungeon master would allow you to roleplay the entire supporting cast of your campaign. You should only really be able to roleplay your character, and have companions intervene for either skill checks or character specific dialogue when it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
I'm also baffled at some things. I'll try to (re)formulate it better in the future, but here's one attempt : I can't begin to understand how Larian works. I completely understand that it's EA, so a lot is currently missing, and I have no (huge) issue with placeholder and "this content is not available yet". I nearly applauded when I saw a cinematics saying about just that. What baffles me are :
- Self-contradicting mechanisms, writing, and promotional speech.
- Core things that are not just missing, but where it's not clear that Larian has figured out yet how they'll handle them. It's highly personal and subjective though. If I undertook such a large scale creative project, I'd personally want to have a much clearer roadmap drafted instead of thinking "let's set sail and we'll figure out the problems and solutions as they pop up".
- The fact that they were happy to let us in that early.

Anyway, I'm just baffled by the approach. I don't think there are too many issues where they have created themselves insoluble problems. And even when they have (e.g. waypoints), they can drop some of the choices they did (e.g. Gale explaining what the waypoints are), and not lose too much work.

So much this.

The whole approach to how Larian is developing this game feels extremely chaotic and unplanned to me.

It has been advertised that they are aiming for a faithful DnD 5E implementation, with only minimal changes that won't work because of the port to PC. But instead of actually implementing the rules, they make heaps of changes that throw the whole balance off.

Be it action economy, feats, advantage/disadvantage rules for height difference, the backstabbing thing, wrong rule application in low light conditions, wrong application of passive perception checks, wrong implementation of DCs, or that cantrips are changed unnecessarily, etc.

In addition, as you mentioned, there are numerous little things that massively disturb the immersion, such as (the non-existent) time flow, (missing) day/night cycle and weather, (fast) travel, long and short rests, just to name a few things.

You have the gift of expressing this much more eloquently and elegantly than I do, so thanks for taking the time to address these things in the forum.

But what concerns me most, regarding the future of this game or EA, are various statements of the responsible leading developers and designers, who call BG3 a AAA title, and want it to be as "flashy" as possible, who only want abilities and spells that make proper "bang", because otherwise BG3 will not sell well.
The just mentioned problems concerning the (combat) rules and immersion, do not seem to be so much problems (bugs aside), but 100% so wanted, because otherwise the game becomes too "complex", and then the accessibility suffers.

Am I really so alone in that I enjoy a living, complex world in a game? That I appreciate an inner logic the mechanics and processes in this world extremely?
Looking around the forum, obviously not. But it quickly gives the impression that Larian does not care, so according to the motto: We did it for the lulz

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Totally agree with the op, a lot of good, easily solvable point for the team that could reinforce storytelling and narrative. the portal and the camp for instance, struck me as weird and out of this worlds.


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Great points!

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All are excellent points many of which I'd thought of like the licking of crushers feet. Would we still get the ring if we just killed him?

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@Rellik2217 : I'm spending fewer hours a week here these days, but if I had replied immediately I would have said : sure, go ahead. Which you did, so, great. I don't know which items in my feedback report have been reported dozens of times and which are more unique, or at least a lot less talked about. I also don't know which way is more beneficial, gives more chances that Larian sees the feedback, and makes it more convenient for Larian to process. I've gone for "big list of points", but it's also good to have dedicated topics. So now there's one for this.

Not being able to use NPC companions to initiate conversations would be one solution. Maybe not the only one, but it would be one. All I hope is that Larian realises that this is a problem and that it should be fixed.

Originally Posted by daMichi
You have the gift of expressing this much more eloquently and elegantly than I do, so thanks for taking the time to address these things in the forum.
Thanks, but "gift" is the thing of Sorcerers. I'm a Mage, and I spend a certain amount of time writing these feedbacks (which I'd rather not disclose in great part because I don't want to know). All I can say is that my initial feeling is occasionally closer to "raaah, X is so damn dumb, please tell me you don't really intended this, also please change to Y instead", and then I try to turn into "X really doesn't work, because reason". As I wrote in my intro, trying to narrow down the problem, rather than a solution that I think would solve it.

As for Larian's combat philosophy of "Kaboom" and "omg, lol, this actually worked -> insta meme", well, it's very different from what I'd hope (that would be a deep, interesting and rewarding system), but at least it's finally becoming clear. So my hopes on this aspect of the game are kept quite moderate.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I believe that your character "have heard of no reason" is a good thing ...
Since not everything need to be told specificly, people should be able to read between lines, observe the world around them and make decisions based on what they see, hear, or believe ... i dont really need to see every tiny option to be highlihted and provided with enough encouraging to try it ... i have option, now its up to me if i use it or not, or why i use it or not.

My characters have found multiple reasons to join the absolute ... that dont mean that your characters are wrong, they simply dont fit to this kind of story, simmilar as mine dont fit to yours. I dont see that as problem, its just variety. :-/

You say what we can gather info ... but you seem to forget few things:
- we also can gather the fact, that the Absolute is promising better life for Drows, Duegars, Goblins, and other "evil" races ...
- we also can observe the fact, that every one of "important" people in this cult is tadpoled ... but they dont know it, we do, that gives us advantage ... also the same observation reveals to our character that reversed, it means that every tadpoled person in this cult, do have important role ... so logicaly, if we join them, we are starting between upper class ...
- we can also observe that none of those people is showing any sighns of health problems, or transformation ... so we can presume that they either have found a cure, or that our condition is not as crittical as it may seem ...
- and last but certainly not least, the best place to figure out what is happening with those tadpoles ... is logicaly place, where people do have tadpoles ... or if not best, its at least better than place where nobody knows what is happening to you, nobody ever seen anything like it, and everyone who will find out what happened to you will try to kill you on sight. laugh

So i believe there is enough clues, you just dont have them served on silver plate ... and i like it to be honest ... i dont want to be pulled by hand, stick to the road every single step, i want option to rebel and go another way, now i have it ... and if there will be reasoning and encouraging added, i will loose it, since instead of have feeling that i have found hidden route, i shall stand on illuminated intersection with detailed signs. frown

You make a valid point here, but I feel as though the main problem is that they give you a lot of implicit hints as to why you would want to side with the Absolute, but the way the game gives you information is uneven. They give you a clear and obvious problem; the tadpoles in your head that will effectively kill you in a limited span of time. Then they give you one obvious solution; the Githyanki creche. I assumed this was supposed to be the main questline because it's so clear and directly attatched to a companion. Then they give you another direct solution; Halsin the druid. Then you have the Absolute and they give you a bunch of implied reasons while also making your initial encounters with the group hostile, as well as giving you a bunch of missions-including one from a companion-that have you thinking they're the area's main enemy, so it's likely you're going to be coming to them negatively from the start. And between having several clear reasons to go against them or otherwise ignore them, having no reason to think that the Absolute isn't some sort of Mindflayer trap-I assumed so and it didn't cross my mind that it might not be the case until I read people thinking that here on the forums-and at no point getting a concrete incentive to work with them-in fact if you side with them I believe you lose Wynn, so that's an active disinsentive-it makes justifying siding with them hard.

I strongly agree that the game needs to give at least one clear justification as to why the Absolute is a viable option. Maybe the entity in your dream can say that she's something other than a Mindflayer, or mention that she can keep you safe from the transformation, just as an idea. I do like that there's apparently a lot of stuff that can be inferred, but when the other options are THAT obvious, and this is apparently meant to be another main path, you can't just leave it up to the player to infer things and you have to give them at least one concrete point that they can latch onto and build logically from there. Because as it stands that path is all a bunch of "what if's" and "probably's" that rely on the character taking a lot on faith.

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The leap of faith goes further. In order to side with the Absolute and/or the Minthara-led attack on the Grove, you have to discard the Halsin card. Even if you've tried other options for a cure, there's still this one that you haven't checked out. Assuming you can successfully infiltrate the cult of the Absolute (a first and huge if), it's not at all clear (in fact, unlikely) that you will find an option for a cure/control. I think that trading a closed box guaranteed to contain a potential solution for a closed box that does not offer this guarantee is just a bad decision.

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The lack of concept of time and day/night cycle is what is messing up the game. I didn't think it was important before playing, but you have no sense of how long it's been or sense of urgency. And it doesn't give you a true concept of when you're supposed to rest at all.

Larian tried to band-aid this by having the characters do little "I'm tired" voices here and there, but it is a sad sad sad attempt to make the difference.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Then they give you one obvious solution; the Githyanki creche.
And i bet that would be another dead end ...
Githyanki have purification ritual that is working on regular tadpoles ... same as the Hag had the way that was allways working before.

But your tadpole is different, and you would need to go to Moonrise towers no matter who you try ... that is my bet. :P

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Then they give you another direct solution; Halsin the druid.
Possible solution!
That is the problem in theese conversations, for some (unknown to me) reason people presuming that Halsin will be able to help you no matter what, but the only one who is recomending him to you is Nettie. The same druid that was trying to kill you, the same druid that was forcing you to swear her that you will comit suicide if anything goes wrong. Would she do that if Halsin would be bet for certain help? I dont think so.
And as far as i remember she told us: "Maybe master Halsin would plucket it from your head." And that is important maybe! ... And a few dozen seconds we have here this confession: "You must find master Halsin, he might be your only chance."

So as we can see, Halsin ... as well as Hag, as well as Volo, as well as Gut, and (lets be honest with each other) probably as well as Githyanki Creche ... its only possibility, nothing more. :P

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Then you have the Absolute and they give you a bunch of implied reasons
True ... but they are living proof of that solution you are looking for.
If they would be just possibility, same as everyone else who i named abowe, they would still start to change before you, since they werent on the same ship ... that is quite obvious, since they had enought time to gather goblin army and allready raid at least two settlements around.

So they can either work as your countdown, or are prooving that you are safe with them.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
while also making your initial encounters with the group hostile
True ... but that is no rare around sword coast as it seems.
Shadowhearth is threating you to keep your distance, Astarion litteraly tryed to cut your throat, Nettie tryed to poison you ... why is killing few lowly insignificant goblins that no one care about any different? laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
as well as giving you a bunch of missions-including one from a companion-that have you thinking they're the area's main enemy, so it's likely you're going to be coming to them negatively from the start.
True that ... there is only that argument that every single NPC i met so far seemed quite selfish, so... laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
having no reason to think that the Absolute isn't some sort of Mindflayer trap
Sure it may be, no doubt about it ...
And if your character is ambicious enough, he might even plan to try turn it on them instead. smile
Just the same as Gale implies that you can try outsmart Raphael and beat him in his own game.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I assumed so and it didn't cross my mind that it might not be the case until I read people thinking that here on the forums
Yeah, its nothing wrong about missing some clues, there is enormous amount of them after all ... i have found secret stash of Kagha on mine fifth playtrough. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
and at no point getting a concrete incentive to work with them-in fact if you side with them I believe you lose Wynn, so that's an active disinsentive-it makes justifying siding with them hard.
I believe this is quite subjective ... i dont like Wyll, he seem to me like cocky brat ... so quite easy for me. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I strongly agree that the game needs to give at least one clear justification as to why the Absolute is a viable option.
I believe they are ment to be something like hidden (but not so well hidden) alternative ...
None of them can offer you help, since for one no one wants to help you, and for two no one even know about this problem ... and the knowledge of tadpole, is your advantage in this cult.

I can imagine only one way to adress this to player without breaking imersion of rest of the story, and its Narator ... something like:
"Once you look in her eyes, you can sence her parasite ... yet she dont display any signs of change, bad health, or even discomfort ... maybe if you stick around you also find a way to master your own tadpole."
But that would sadly break the secret about this whole option.

To be completely honest it seem quite obvious, yet i like it isnt served under your nose ...
So there is at least chance that some people will miss it. The whole situation with Absolute cult seem to me like if DM create some plot, and then repeat for himself "Notice! Notice! Notice!" ... and if you dont, he will give you another clue, and another clue, and another clue ... until he gets tired and simply tells you.
I dont want Larian to get tired and tells us, we have our hints ... who will notice, may proceed ... who dont, will proceed another path, i dont see anything bad about it.

You know about this option ... you want to use this option ... now its up to you to find a way. :P

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Maybe the entity in your dream can say that she's something other than a Mindflayer, or mention that she can keep you safe from the transformation, just as an idea.
Dream entity is suppose to be mysterious ...
You have option to ask her what she is ... and she tells you "I think you allready know."

Come on! That is perfect!
And add, change, or remove anything would totally breat it. frown

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
you can't just leave it up to the player to infer things
Oh you definietly can, and in this case i even believe that you should.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
you have to give them at least one concrete point that they can latch onto and build logically from there.
I see what you mean, i just think that they are there ... you just need to search for them actively.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Because as it stands that path is all a bunch of "what if's" and "probably's" that rely on the character taking a lot on faith.
Yes, and that is good ...
If BG3-EA teached me anything, its that we cant take anything as grated and i love it, it keeps the story intensive.

This is why i loved so much Game of Thrones, (except finale -_-) since you have seen from the begining that every character is in existencial danger, it was much more interesting to watch their fates.

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
The leap of faith goes further. In order to side with the Absolute and/or the Minthara-led attack on the Grove, you have to discard the Halsin card.
And if you decide to go with Halsin, you need to discard the Absolute card ...
I dont see any difference, two people both POSSIBLY able to help are against each other ... choose your side, nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Assuming you can successfully infiltrate the cult of the Absolute (a first and huge if),
Huge if?
Even if you fail all your atempts to sneak around the main gate, or talk through, you are not Drow, and you decide to not use your tadpole ... even if you kill them all, and simply walk into goblin camp still dirty of their comrades blood ... they are friendly. laugh

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
it's not at all clear (in fact, unlikely) that you will find an option for a cure/control.
I believe i allready mentined quite a lot clues that implies both.
We did talk about it few times allready and i know that you are willing to ignore everything that is right before you (unless i misstake you with someone else) until some npc will stand before you and tells you: "Join us and you can master your tadpole, instead of geting rid of it." -_-

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
I think that trading a closed box guaranteed to contain a potential solution for a closed box that does not offer this guarantee is just a bad decision.
Fun fact: NO solution is garanted.
In fact you are trading one suspicious closed box that could contain some solution ... for another suspicious closed box that could contain entirely different solution.

Anything else is just pure speculation based on how you like the person (or being) that was giving you the box. :P


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Then they give you one obvious solution; the Githyanki creche.
And i bet that would be another dead end ...
Githyanki have purification ritual that is working on regular tadpoles ... same as the Hag had the way that was allways working before.

But your tadpole is different, and you would need to go to Moonrise towers no matter who you try ... that is my bet. :P

From an in-character perspective, we have a character that knows far more than most people in the setting about the tadpoles presenting a definite way to get rid of them. It's not even like she's vague about the method, she describes a process of removal and and I didn't encounter any reason to suspect she was lying at all in my playthrough. So from an in-character perspective, her solution is as close to a guarantee as we get.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Then they give you another direct solution; Halsin the druid.
Possible solution!
That is the problem in theese conversations, for some (unknown to me) reason people presuming that Halsin will be able to help you no matter what, but the only one who is recomending him to you is Nettie. The same druid that was trying to kill you, the same druid that was forcing you to swear her that you will comit suicide if anything goes wrong. Would she do that if Halsin would be bet for certain help? I dont think so.
And as far as i remember she told us: "Maybe master Halsin would plucket it from your head." And that is important maybe! ... And a few dozen seconds we have here this confession: "You must find master Halsin, he might be your only chance."

So as we can see, Halsin ... as well as Hag, as well as Volo, as well as Gut, and (lets be honest with each other) probably as well as Githyanki Creche ... its only possibility, nothing more. :P

I agree that they're all only possible, but they're possibilities that you have decent, clear reasons to think will work. I recieved no such reason to think the Absolute wasn't just a trap. The problem is that if the Absolute is a trap, then you go for it and you're almost definitely screwed because you're not likely to find out until it's too late. If you go for any other options, then you may have time to try another before it's too late. Going for the Absolute path to my mind has higher stakes for failure than any other path.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Then you have the Absolute and they give you a bunch of implied reasons
True ... but they are living proof of that solution you are looking for.
If they would be just possibility, same as everyone else who i named abowe, they would still start to change before you, since they werent on the same ship ... that is quite obvious, since they had enought time to gather goblin army and allready raid at least two settlements around.

So they can either work as your countdown, or are prooving that you are safe with them.

This is a good point, I can't and won't argue with it.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
while also making your initial encounters with the group hostile
True ... but that is no rare around sword coast as it seems.
Shadowhearth is threating you to keep your distance, Astarion litteraly tryed to cut your throat, Nettie tryed to poison you ... why is killing few lowly insignificant goblins that no one care about any different? laugh

Also a good point.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
having no reason to think that the Absolute isn't some sort of Mindflayer trap
Sure it may be, no doubt about it ...
And if your character is ambicious enough, he might even plan to try turn it on them instead. smile
Just the same as Gale implies that you can try outsmart Raphael and beat him in his own game.[/quote]

At this stage that's still a stupid gamble because we don't know nearly enough about them, certainly not not enough to know if trying to turn it on them would even get us what we want. With Raphael at least, you know that he's almost certainly powerful enough to do what he says and you know what he wants. You don't know that about the Absolute so thinking you can turn their trap against them is kind of insane. Again, even though the other options aren't true guarantees (I still think that the creche is presented in a way that the PC would reasonably think that it is a guarantee though) the Absolute path is the biggest gamble because we're given so little and have to risk a lot even for just information.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I assumed so and it didn't cross my mind that it might not be the case until I read people thinking that here on the forums
Yeah, its nothing wrong about missing some clues, there is enormous amount of them after all ... i have found secret stash of Kagha on mine fifth playtrough. laugh

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
and at no point getting a concrete incentive to work with them-in fact if you side with them I believe you lose Wynn, so that's an active disinsentive-it makes justifying siding with them hard.
I believe this is quite subjective ... i dont like Wyll, he seem to me like cocky brat ... so quite easy for me. laugh

Also fair.

I can imagine only one way to adress this to player without breaking imersion of rest of the story, and its Narator ... something like:
"Once you look in her eyes, you can sence her parasite ... yet she dont display any signs of change, bad health, or even discomfort ... maybe if you stick around you also find a way to master your own tadpole."
But that would sadly break the secret about this whole option.[/quote]

I don't feel like it's meant to be a secret though. It's directly tied to one of the two main ways you can complete this part of the story. So something like what you suggested would actually be perfect because it doesn't seem to me that this is actually supposed to be a mystery. It's meant to be the "evil" path of this part of the game, while siding with the druids is the "good" path. If it were meant to be a secret then I feel as though it should be harder to even find the opportunity to join the cult. If it were meant to be a major secret then I would have no problem with having to untangle little dropped hints to learn about it. But to me, the structure of the game suggests that the Absolute is being presented as a second, equally viable option to the Druids and Halsin, so if that's supposed to be the case, then the information for why the cult is a good choice should be presented as clearly as the information for why the Druids are a good choice.

I think this may be the core of why I take issue with how it's presented thus far and the core of our different opinions. You're looking at it as a secret path to be unravelled, but I'm looking at it as a main path that should be as clear as the other main path but isn't, and so that lack of clarity is a failing rather than a purposeful feature in my eyes. For instance the fact that there are apparently shadow druids in the glade (whatever those are, I'm not really aware of the lore) is a secret that could very well impact how you interact with the group as a whole. The fact that that's something I completely missed in my playthrough to me signals that it's a piece of information that's purposefully hidden and that can impact roleplaying in a future playthrough. So I look at that and think "oh, that's a good, fun piece of design." This issue however feels like something is supposed to be an obvious so-equal alternative choice but they haven't given the same level of clarity as to why it's an equal choice. So if the Absolute path is meant to be a secret then I think it actually fails worse on that front because the option to join them is presented far too readily and easily.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
To be completely honest it seem quite obvious, yet i like it isnt served under your nose ...
So there is at least chance that some people will miss it. The whole situation with Absolute cult seem to me like if DM create some plot, and then repeat for himself "Notice! Notice! Notice!" ... and if you dont, he will give you another clue, and another clue, and another clue ... until he gets tired and simply tells you.

The problem is that as I mentioned above, this seems to be one of the two main paths to complete this section of the game. The GM in this scenario is dropping hints while also giving you several far more attractive options to follow. If this were a real GM, I'd think that he was signalling me *not* to go that route.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Maybe the entity in your dream can say that she's something other than a Mindflayer, or mention that she can keep you safe from the transformation, just as an idea.
Dream entity is suppose to be mysterious ...
You have option to ask her what she is ... and she tells you "I think you allready know."

Come on! That is perfect!
And add, change, or remove anything would totally breat it. frown

When she said that, I assumed she was a manifestation of the tadpole trying to get me to use my powers more and hurry the process.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
you have to give them at least one concrete point that they can latch onto and build logically from there.
I see what you mean, i just think that they are there ... you just need to search for them actively.

The problem is that every other option doesn't require you to search actively to find a reason why it's apparently viable. Which is why I take issue with the way the path is presented-when every other option is so clear, that's training the player to expect a certain level of clarity across the board. It's telling me "no option is truly guaranteed, but we're going to tell you what the options are and give you enough information to start weighing the pro's and con's." The information I get about the Absolute is so much more vague when it's being presented as the second major option in the game.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Because as it stands that path is all a bunch of "what if's" and "probably's" that rely on the character taking a lot on faith.
Yes, and that is good ...
If BG3-EA teached me anything, its that we cant take anything as grated and i love it, it keeps the story intensive.

This is why i loved so much Game of Thrones, (except finale -_-) since you have seen from the begining that every character is in existencial danger, it was much more interesting to watch their fates.

But again, the path is full of even more what-if's than any other paths, to the point that it becomes the least attractive.

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That multiquote kinda buged huh? laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
From an in-character perspective, we have a character that knows far more than most people in the setting about the tadpoles presenting a definite way to get rid of them.
I presume you mean Lae'zel?

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
It's not even like she's vague about the method, she describes a process of removal and and I didn't encounter any reason to suspect she was lying at all in my playthrough. So from an in-character perspective, her solution is as close to a guarantee as we get.
I never said she was lying ...
- I (as a person, concidering everything i get from my previous gamplays) just dont believe that her method will be aplicable to our case.
- I (as a Githyanki character) see that mine kin have solution, so i follow it blindly, since my species was allways told that we are supreme ... therefore our method must be the best one. laugh
- I (as any other character) see that Lae'zel is a zealot ... her people knows best, her people do best, her people this, her people that ... everyone around the globe are useless idiots unless they are Gith, even if she litteraly admits that she knows nothing about this world. And then it depends on specific characters if they are willing to thrust the Gith or not, especialy after that encounter with Gith patrol ...

For example:
My Tiefling is suspicious charlatan, notorious liar that expect everyone around her to be as false as she is ...
For her, Lae'zel is suspicious, since she never doubt her words, and never doubt her methods ... but need overweight the risk, so she decided to follow her to mountain pass ... there they met Githyanki patrol, and she let Lae'zel do handle the situation ... yet the patrol leader decided that Lae'zel should be beheaded bcs she is infected ...
That is the situation then my Tiefling started to wonder if that whole "purification protocol" isnt just fairytail, that is told to Gith younglings, so they dont struggle when they fail in their hunt, when they are infected, and when its time to end them bcs their people actually believe there is no cure at all.

Also, to add some metainfo flavour ... note the fact that if your character is Githyanki, s/he never heared about purification protocol.
Quite a coincidence, isnt it? laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I agree that they're all only possible, but they're possibilities that you have decent, clear reasons to think will work.
As i tryed to explain abowe, it depends on character ...
Some do, some dont ...

Also it depends on how many times you allready tryed. laugh
Specificly it depends on if you allready tryed to ask Hag for her help, before you went futher.
Bcs she reveals to you that you have no ordinary tadpole, therefore your character can presume that ordinary methods will not work.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I recieved no such reason to think the Absolute wasn't just a trap.
As i said in previous reply, it certainly could be a trap.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
The problem is that if the Absolute is a trap, then you go for it and you're almost definitely screwed because you're not likely to find out until it's too late.
Nah ...
You are not thinking as overcomfident character that believes in his skills and smarts ... maybe a bit too much. laugh

Such character knows that there is a risk, but believes that he would see that risk soon enough, and with his own skills he will turn that risk in advantage.
Havent you seen any movie, where main character say: "Of course its a trap." ?
The point in such cases is, that traps are working on unaware targets only ... an aware target, have chance to turn the situation over ... its a risk? Sure! Its a huge and dangerous gamble that may or may not pay off. But that is the thing with gamble, more risk usualy means better reward, or that is what people expect at least. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If you go for any other options, then you may have time to try another before it's too late. Going for the Absolute path to my mind has higher stakes for failure than any other path.
I believe you mean "you may not have time to try another" ...
And yes you may not, but that is the case with all options ... and with anything else your character do, as exploring rest of the map, helping others, fighting gnolls, etc, etc.

It just all depends on your point of view, and on how many information your character curently have.
Few examples:

- My Gith didnt even bother with Tieflings and Druids ... since time is short, and she needed to find creche as soon as possible, so she questioned Zoru and vent to mountain pass.
- My Tiefling decided to help Tieflings, since they are her kin, and in the process rescue Halsin, since she believed that time is short and her both objectives could be completed simultaneously.
- My Drow didnt even entered the groove, since for one he would not expect warm welcome and for two, they are beneath him. But when he explored to the north he find out Goblin patrol, that was bowing to him ... that picked his curiocity, so he traveled to their camp, and find their leader ... there he find out that all of their leaders is unaware of being tadpoled, and they all are part of some cult ... he realized that he should be safe at least until they start to turn (reasons i allready described) so he decided to stick with them, and find out what is happening around here.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
At this stage that's still a stupid gamble because we don't know nearly enough about them, certainly not not enough to know if trying to turn it on them would even get us what we want.
Gamble? Sure.
Stupid? Well, potentialy.

What do we know ...
We know that no usual way (Volo, Hag, Gut, potentialy Gith in the future...) we tryed so far isnt working, bcs our tadpole is alterned ...
We know that there is some connection between the Absolute cult and alterned tadpoles ...
We certainly know that the Absolute cult is somehow protected against the change, or at least that they should turn before us ...
We certainly know that none of tadpoled cultist know that they are tadpoled ...
If we kill (or fail to rescue) Halsin, we get his diary, where he specificly writes about tracking tadpoles origin to moonrise towers ...
If we talk to Zentharin slaver/trader, she specificly tells us that most people goblins used to sell to slavery they now send to moonrise towers ...

It seem like enough to me. O_o
Of course if we rush from the groove to goblin camp, then our information will be a little thiner. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
With Raphael at least, you know that he's almost certainly powerful enough to do what he says and you know what he wants.
You presume ... same as you can presume with Hag, with Gith, with Gut and with Volo ... but in his case its more about skills, than power.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
You don't know that about the Absolute so thinking you can turn their trap against them is kind of insane.
First of all, you dont even know if there is any trap, since nobody expects you to get there. smile
Since all her followers are unaware of their tadpoles, you can presume that your knowledge of that is your advantage ... that means, if you approach the Absolute, and she will recognize you as one of her followers, just as every other you met so far do ... you might get close enough to destroy her.

Also i dont see how trying to outsmart cambion is anyhow less insane than trying to outsmart self-proclaimed goddess. laugh
Everyone make misstake, all you need is skillfull and ambicious character that will be there to profit from that misstake. :P

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Again, even though the other options aren't true guarantees (I still think that the creche is presented in a way that the PC would reasonably think that it is a guarantee though) the Absolute path is the biggest gamble because we're given so little and have to risk a lot even for just information.
Not sure if you are talking here from character perspective, or player perspective.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I don't feel like it's meant to be a secret though.
All i see here is complaining about this path not being clear enough to character ...
What else it would be than a secret? laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
It's directly tied to one of the two main ways you can complete this part of the story.
Personaly i hope Githyanki chreche will be third one.
If they proove themself to be just another dead route as Hag was, i will be quite sad. :-/

I imagine it as you either join Tieflings, or you join Goblins ... or you dont join either of them, get to Gith, and there they tell you that they allready know about moonrise towers, and you need to go there first for Purification protocol to work ... and when you get back to previous map, you find out that goblins allready attacked the groove, but all leaders died during the attack and rest of both factions are gone.
Either that or groove being covered with magical thorns, and goblins being hostile to you.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So something like what you suggested would actually be perfect because it doesn't seem to me that this is actually supposed to be a mystery.
I would not say "mystery" ... maybe even secret is a too strong word, just not so obvious option. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
It's meant to be the "evil" path of this part of the game, while siding with the druids is the "good" path.
Im affraid its a little more complex ...
I believe Larian did elementary misstake when they used those words in one of feedback posts. :-/

There is kazzilion ways to define "good" or "evil" ...
And i would like to not stuck on those terms. :-/

I believe that game provides us many choices that leads to many different outcomes and there is really a LOT permutations ...
And anyone who wish to box any of those outcomes to "good" or "evil" boxes, seem shortsighted to me. :-/

Few examples:
- Your character killed Zevlor, helped Kagha to seal the groove and massacred other Tieflings, childs included, then rescued Halsin who no longer require to kill Goblin leaders, but you killed them anyway since the world will be better without them. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character tryed to persuate Kagha, but failed and killed her with all the other druids, many Tieflings died in the proces ... then you rescued Halsin and killed Goblin leaders that threatened druid groove that will soon be empty. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character redeem Kagha, showed her errors of her way, and helped her kill the shadow druids and allow Tieflings to stay as long as they need with her full support ... then you decided that cult of the Absolute will probably be your better chance, than some druid that was watching captured tadpole ... betray the groove and join the goblins. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character dont interact with Kagha, or Zevlor at all ... go straight to goblin camp, join them and raid the groove ... then you kill Minthara that will betray you, and you will be attacked by Halsin next evening ... you tell him that you hoped they will be able to help you, that now you see that you have made a worst misstake of your life and honestly regrets it ... you refuse to kill Halsin and will KO him instead. (Futher interactions depend on implementation of some interaction to knocked targets.) > Are you good or evil?
- Your character decided to help Tieflings, since they offered reward, he believe that Halsin is his best shot, and expect to find some sweet loot between those who are preparing for war ... so all from purely selfish reasons. > Are you good or evil?

World is not black and white and only a Sith deals in absolutes. :P laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If it were meant to be a secret then I feel as though it should be harder to even find the opportunity to join the cult. If it were meant to be a major secret then I would have no problem with having to untangle little dropped hints to learn about it. But to me, the structure of the game suggests that the Absolute is being presented as a second, equally viable option to the Druids and Halsin, so if that's supposed to be the case, then the information for why the cult is a good choice should be presented as clearly as the information for why the Druids are a good choice.
Dunno ... they kinda are, at least to me. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
The GM in this scenario is dropping hints while also giving you several far more attractive options to follow. If this were a real GM, I'd think that he was signalling me *not* to go that route.
Yeah, that is concept i like ...
You have main path, and you have alternatives ...

From my perspective GM i signaling you that *this* path is straight, smooth and easy, but *that one* is also possible, if you dare.
If he dont want you to go there, he would not give you those hints. :P

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
When she said that, I assumed she was a manifestation of the tadpole trying to get me to use my powers more and hurry the process.
May be ... and that is the fun in that relationship, we are suppose to gues what she is, she is suppose to give us puzzling answers with little certainity. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
But again, the path is full of even more what-if's than any other paths, to the point that it becomes the least attractive.
Certainly not for me. laugh


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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Oh yeah, the multi-quote thing was a serious headache.

But more substantively, you've presented a lot of good arguments here, and for most of them all I can say is that your arguments are valid and make sense, but aren't enough to convince me, so we can just agree to disagree. The one place where I feel it is worth arguing is this:

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I don't feel like it's meant to be a secret though.
All i see here is complaining about this path not being clear enough to character ...
What else it would be than a secret? laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
It's directly tied to one of the two main ways you can complete this part of the story.
Personaly i hope Githyanki chreche will be third one.
If they proove themself to be just another dead route as Hag was, i will be quite sad. :-/

I imagine it as you either join Tieflings, or you join Goblins ... or you dont join either of them, get to Gith, and there they tell you that they allready know about moonrise towers, and you need to go there first for Purification protocol to work ... and when you get back to previous map, you find out that goblins allready attacked the groove, but all leaders died during the attack and rest of both factions are gone.
Either that or groove being covered with magical thorns, and goblins being hostile to you.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So something like what you suggested would actually be perfect because it doesn't seem to me that this is actually supposed to be a mystery.
I would not say "mystery" ... maybe even secret is a too strong word, just not so obvious option. laugh

When I say it doesn't feel like the Absolute path is meant to be a secret, I'm talking about how it doesn't seem like it's meant to be a secret to the player, and yet it is the player that has to pick through all the little hints and implications in order to find a good in-character reason to roleplay following the Absolute. In character I avoided the Hag because that questline did not to my character present a compelling route to getting the tadpole out, as my character never found out she was a hag who had any power that could potentially help her (and as an aside, can I say that I really kind of hate how a pretty significant piece of information regarding the nature of your tadpole is hidden behind a-from what I have been able to gather from the forums-incurable and really harsh status effect? Unless there's some way learn that information or get free of the curse that I haven't learned about yet). I ended up avoiding going to the Gith patrol because of how often it led to me getting into a combat I still failed to win after three or four attempts, and I never interacted with Volo beyond the firt meeting so if he apparently knows something I haven't learned it (why yes, my attempt to play an evil character did lead to me failing to engage with a large swath of the game, I know even more why I hate playing evil).

Basically what I'm saying is that it's easy to find reasons to trust the Druid path and it's only through picking at threads that you see reasons not to. Meanwhile with the Absolute path it's inverted and you have to pick at the same strings to find reasons to trust it. And when within the structure of the game it seems like the Absolute path is meant to be an equally viable story branch to the Druid path, I feel like the information about it should be presented in a more or less equitable way. For example in the game Tyranny, there are several paths you can take within the game, but since the game is about being on some level "villaouns," the most firmly good and heroic path requires picking through threads and spotting cues like the way you've described, while the other paths were all marked clearly. When I say the Absolute path feels like it's not meant to be a secret, that's what I mean.

I just want for someone within the game that you can easily find before you make it to the goblin fort to make the case that whatever is going on with the tadpoles isn't just a Mindflayer trap. Just one person. It doesn't have to be someone absolutely, objectively truthful, just someone who knows about the tadpole and thinks they can use the cult to control it, or something like that. Because even among your party, your companions all seem sceptical of the Absolute, even I think Astarion, who's currently the only voice in support of controling the tadpole. You have loads of people making the case for the Druids, there should be some degree of balance there for the Absolute.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im affraid its a little more complex ...
I believe Larian did elementary misstake when they used those words in one of feedback posts. :-/

There is kazzilion ways to define "good" or "evil" ...
And i would like to not stuck on those terms. :-/

I believe that game provides us many choices that leads to many different outcomes and there is really a LOT permutations ...
And anyone who wish to box any of those outcomes to "good" or "evil" boxes, seem shortsighted to me. :-/

Few examples:
- Your character killed Zevlor, helped Kagha to seal the groove and massacred other Tieflings, childs included, then rescued Halsin who no longer require to kill Goblin leaders, but you killed them anyway since the world will be better without them. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character tryed to persuate Kagha, but failed and killed her with all the other druids, many Tieflings died in the proces ... then you rescued Halsin and killed Goblin leaders that threatened druid groove that will soon be empty. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character redeem Kagha, showed her errors of her way, and helped her kill the shadow druids and allow Tieflings to stay as long as they need with her full support ... then you decided that cult of the Absolute will probably be your better chance, than some druid that was watching captured tadpole ... betray the groove and join the goblins. > Are you good or evil?
- Your character dont interact with Kagha, or Zevlor at all ... go straight to goblin camp, join them and raid the groove ... then you kill Minthara that will betray you, and you will be attacked by Halsin next evening ... you tell him that you hoped they will be able to help you, that now you see that you have made a worst misstake of your life and honestly regrets it ... you refuse to kill Halsin and will KO him instead. (Futher interactions depend on implementation of some interaction to knocked targets.) > Are you good or evil?
- Your character decided to help Tieflings, since they offered reward, he believe that Halsin is his best shot, and expect to find some sweet loot between those who are preparing for war ... so all from purely selfish reasons. > Are you good or evil?

World is not black and white and only a Sith deals in absolutes. :P laugh

See, the issue with this is that in Forgotten Realms, the world IS black and white. Good and Evil are very real, actual forces in the world. As much as I personally like morally grey situations myself (And prefer settings that include this, FR ranks pretty low for many reasons ultimately), Forgotten Realms is not this. There is not a thing of doing something bad "for the greater good".

The Larian writing does lead to that morally grey/more complex take on alignments (I think. Or it is a result of how they wrote stuff) but that is not really a thing for Forgotten Realms. Personal preferences aside, this is the setting we are stuck with.

These examples by Forgotten Realms standards would all lean to evil. In some of them very Chaotic Evil at that.

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I kind of disagree, Fox,

Yes, inherent Good and Evil (capital letters) are things in the FR world space, and much is definitely governed by that truth... but people are people, and those inherent goods and evils only exist as beings that have it in their nature and don't have a choice in that matter. For everyone else, all the moral greyness of any other world is right there and absolutely exists. I've never played a D&D game where moral quandaries and grey decisions did not make up many important parts of the roleplay process. I don't think it's accurate to describe the realms as simple black and white just because the two extremes are tangibly existent. Even the mortal races that are listed as fundamentally evil (kobolds, goblins, etc.,), their actual descriptions make clear that this is based at a general and societal level, and that individual creatures are quite capable of being otherwise in the right conditions.

The realms often depict black and white situations, yes, but they have always carried with them a mountain of grey in between (well... from 3d edition at least, I'm less familiar with anything before that).

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I'm with Niara on this -- Good and Evil being palpable metaphysical pillars of the natural world does not mean people stop needing to see themselves as righteous and justifying themselves and their actions. It does not give everyone an objective, innate understanding or agreement of what is good and what is evil.


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The issue with FR in regard to Good and Evil is that they are actual forces that manifest and are associated with beings bound to this. The gods have their portfolios and they are associated with good/evil. This affects humans and other mortals too. If you go murder stuff, you do in essence empower gods associated with that. It is very easy and basic writing, I do prefer moral grayness and more complexity (And the better RP sessions I had in DnD type games included this). But, FR is FR. For Moral Grey stuff I just get my fix elsewhere rather than try and include it in a setting not really written for that without having inconsistensies/clashes with other lore it has. Forgotten Realms does not really lend itself for the moral grayness with how it is set up, as much as I would like to see it still (outside of CRPGs I do not really touch FR anyway, to be fair).

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I think with regard to FR, sure there are actual tangible effects to evil and good acts, but how much does that actually impact most regular people? (I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms so if it actually has an impact feel free to correct me) People can still do evil things thinking they're good and there can still be moral greyness between people because the gods aren't constantly there scolding every individual person over their choices and actions. It just means for most people that when they die, they'll get to see exactly how right or wrong they were.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
When I say it doesn't feel like the Absolute path is meant to be a secret, I'm talking about how it doesn't seem like it's meant to be a secret to the player, and yet it is the player that has to pick through all the little hints and implications in order to find a good in-character reason to roleplay following the Absolute.
This seems like contradiction ...
On other site you say its not a sectet ... on other hand you say that player need to pick all litthe hints and take them together so he know this option is there.

That is definition of secret for me. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
In character I avoided the Hag because that questline did not to my character present a compelling route to getting the tadpole out, as my character never found out she was a hag who had any power that could potentially help her
It depends ...
If your character tells her about his little problem, she will offer you her healing skills, ensuring you that she IS capable to help you. Funny part about it is that she even dont lie there. laugh

Ofcourse you get the most if you create ridiculously thrusting character, who will tells about his little problem to anyone he can. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Unless there's some way learn that information or get free of the curse that I haven't learned about yet
You mean the information about how was your tadpole alterned?
Yup there is one ...
In the underdark, in Myconid collony, you find hopgoblin vendor ... when you tell him about your problem, he will call for his assistant ... i will not spoil here who is that, but lets say you would have hard time finding any better expert in this problem. smile
Then you do a little quest for him, and he reveals to you your tadpole nature ... also offers you a temporary help, and something else.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I ended up avoiding going to the Gith patrol because of how often it led to me getting into a combat I still failed to win after three or four attempts
All i can tell you is that positioning do a lot work for you.
I allways keep my caster, and ranger/rogue hidden up there "just in case something goes wrong" ... works like a charm. You will be able to kill them all even with 3lvl party (not easily, but able). wink

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I never interacted with Volo beyond the firt meeting so if he apparently knows something I haven't learned it
Volo is special case ...
You need to save him, offer him place in your camp and then tell him about the tadpole.
He seem very comfident about his skills and knowledge, but never offers any actual proof ... so its just the same about all others, you either thrust him ... or not. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Basically what I'm saying is that it's easy to find reasons to trust the Druid path and it's only through picking at threads that you see reasons not to.
As i explained abowe, its just matter of point of view ...

Personaly i dont find druids much thrustworthy:
- Their acting leader is openly preparing to little genocide ...
- Healer you are offered tryes to poison you first ...
- And their actual leader refuse to even hear about your problem, before he do his own work ... and he keep refusing to hear about your problem, even after you do that work for him (true, its too late to change sides at this point, but you get me ... right?)

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Meanwhile with the Absolute path it's inverted and you have to pick at the same strings to find reasons to trust it.
That is the sweetest part about this group ... you dont need to thrust them at all. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
And when within the structure of the game it seems like the Absolute path is meant to be an equally viable story branch to the Druid path, I feel like the information about it should be presented in a more or less equitable way.
Yet another contradiction ...
You say that you presume that the Absolute path should be "equally viatble story branch" ... yet you also admits that its not acting like it ... isnt that allone kinda proof that your original presumation was not quite right? wink

I dindt ever played tyrany, so i skip that.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I just want for someone within the game that you can easily find before you make it to the goblin fort to make the case that whatever is going on with the tadpoles isn't just a Mindflayer trap. Just one person.
I dont ...
That would mean there is some character that knows everything about the Absolute, yet its not part of her cult ... also knows everything about mind flayers, yet its not part of their hive mind ... also know everything about your particular tadpole, including the fact that you have tadpole, yet either its not tadpoled himself, or for some reason decided to NOT take advantage of all informations he have ...

The only person i can imagine that would check all theese points, yet feels natural in the story, is simply yourself. O_o
Wich, when i think about it ... seem actualy doable!

How about this scenario:
1) When you talk to Minthara, she tells you that Goblins will attack next day by dawn
2) Your quest log will update to tells you that you need to long rest, before progress futher
3) When you lay down to sleep, you get introspective conversation with yourself, sumarizing your situation ... something like:
"Before you go to sleep, you recap your so far knowledge ...
On one hand you have Tiefling refugees, maybe not all of them exactly innocent, but certainly needing your help.
You remember druids talking about Halsin, he might be able to help you, if he still lives (concidering you didnt save him yet).
On the other hand you have cult of the Absolute ... they certainly have some connection to mind flayer tadpoles ... but are they masters, or slaves?

You realize that you need to choose side in upcoming conflict, and you need to choose soon."


Then scene goes as it does now ...
You go to the gate, talk to Zevlor, blow the horn ... and then decide either to betray Zevlor, or Minthara.

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
See, the issue with this is that in Forgotten Realms, the world IS black and white.
All i certainly see is that you didnt asign any of my examples to neither ...
So it seem to me like it still isnt. laugh

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Good and Evil are very real, actual forces in the world.
Good and Evil beings are real ... dont missinterpret here, there is a difference.
Even Evil character is able to do good thing, even if for Evil (read as selfish) reasons ... for example Raphael.
He (evil being) is offering you his help (good thing) bcs he want your soul (evil reason).

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
As much as I personally like morally grey situations myself (And prefer settings that include this, FR ranks pretty low for many reasons ultimately), Forgotten Realms is not this. There is not a thing of doing something bad "for the greater good".
On the contrary ... in game itself is several chances to be as gray as you wish.

Few examples:
You can kill Kagha to help the Tieflings negotiating that they stay ...
You can kill Zevlor to help the Druids drive out Tieflings, so Kagha dont kill them, when ritual is completed ...
You can kill Myconid Sovereign, so the other tribe of Myconids can be created there ...
You can also kill old Myconid Sovereign, so the current tribe can live ...
You can poison whole goblin camp (including women, childern and civilians), so you can help Owlbear cub to escape ...

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
The Larian writing does lead to that morally grey/more complex take on alignments (I think. Or it is a result of how they wrote stuff) but that is not really a thing for Forgotten Realms. Personal preferences aside, this is the setting we are stuck with.
As far as i know, Alignments was repeately confrimmed as "not included" in this game ...
Not sure if they even are in last DnD ruleset. O_o

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
These examples by Forgotten Realms standards would all lean to evil. In some of them very Chaotic Evil at that.
And you really think that is it ... you do something that someone concider evil, so you are evil ... no matter consequences, no matter reasons, no matter motivations, no matter anything. laugh

Do you at least realize that every single Lawfull Good Paladin in shiny armor helping the town from bloodthirsty cobolds ... is pure evil in eyes of those cobolds?
They are home there, they were first here ... now some humans created field abowe their homeland ... and they are slaughtered by dozens, just bcs they are searching for some food.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This seems like contradiction ...
On other site you say its not a sectet ... on other hand you say that player need to pick all litthe hints and take them together so he know this option is there.

That is definition of secret for me. laugh

It's not a secret to the player because it's pretty easy to run into the chance to join it. If you follow Wyll's plan to take out the goblin leaders-which is necessary to complete his companion quest-then you'll walk into Minthara and she'll present to you the option to join in on the attack at the grove and you'll have the option to join it. It's not something that the player has to work to find. Maybe I just did everything right the first time and it's actually far harder to run into that situation, if that's the case then I can admit that I'm wrong. But based on my experience it seems like playing the game normally has you running into the option to join them without particular work on the players part.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Ofcourse you get the most if you create ridiculously thrusting character, who will tells about his little problem to anyone he can. laugh

No arguments there, you're just plane right. :P

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You mean the information about how was your tadpole alterned?
Yup there is one ...

Thanks for letting me know. I have not managed to get to the Underdark at all, the puzzle was bugged in my first playthrough and I haven't been able to get through another despite starting a couple.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Volo is special case ...
You need to save him, offer him place in your camp and then tell him about the tadpole.
He seem very comfident about his skills and knowledge, but never offers any actual proof ... so its just the same about all others, you either thrust him ... or not. laugh

He offers a cure? I thought Volo was just some bard. Clearly I need to interact with him next time because I want to know what that's about.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
As i explained abowe, its just matter of point of view ...

Personaly i dont find druids much thrustworthy:
- Their acting leader is openly preparing to little genocide ...
- Healer you are offered tryes to poison you first ...
- And their actual leader refuse to even hear about your problem, before he do his own work ... and he keep refusing to hear about your problem, even after you do that work for him (true, its too late to change sides at this point, but you get me ... right?)

You make a lot of good points here, I can't and won't argue with them.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
That is the sweetest part about this group ... you dont need to thrust them at all. laugh

When I say trust here, I mean trust that they have the capacity, the actual ability to help you at all. Not that they will help you, but that they have anything to actually offer you.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You say that you presume that the Absolute path should be "equally viatble story branch" ... yet you also admits that its not acting like it ... isnt that allone kinda proof that your original presumation was not quite right? wink

It's not a contradiction because I'm saying that it looks like it should be an equally viable branch, based on knowledge of the cRPG genre and my experiences of this specific game, as well as metatextual knowledge based on how the developers have talked about the path. Therefore when I say that it's not acting like one, that's me saying that it's failing to be the equally viable branch it seems like it's being presented as. Like how if you show me a car and I say that it's not driving because it's missing parts, I'm not saying that it's not a car, I'm saying that it's a broken car. Again, if I just am wrong about how easy it is to find a chance to join the Absolute and how obvious it's made to the player, I'll accept reasoning to the contrary.

However I will reccomend Tyranny, it's a great game with a magic system I'm still in love with to this day.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
That would mean there is some character that knows everything about the Absolute, yet its not part of her cult ... also knows everything about mind flayers, yet its not part of their hive mind ... also know everything about your particular tadpole, including the fact that you have tadpole, yet either its not tadpoled himself, or for some reason decided to NOT take advantage of all informations he have ...

The only person i can imagine that would check all theese points, yet feels natural in the story, is simply yourself. O_o
Wich, when i think about it ... seem actualy doable!

How about this scenario:
1) When you talk to Minthara, she tells you that Goblins will attack next day by dawn
2) Your quest log will update to tells you that you need to long rest, before progress futher
3) When you lay down to sleep, you get introspective conversation with yourself, sumarizing your situation ... something like:
"Before you go to sleep, you recap your so far knowledge ...
On one hand you have Tiefling refugees, maybe not all of them exactly innocent, but certainly needing your help.
You remember druids talking about Halsin, he might be able to help you, if he still lives (concidering you didnt save him yet).
On the other hand you have cult of the Absolute ... they certainly have some connection to mind flayer tadpoles ... but are they masters, or slaves?

You realize that you need to choose side in upcoming conflict, and you need to choose soon."


Then scene goes as it does now ...
You go to the gate, talk to Zevlor, blow the horn ... and then decide either to betray Zevlor, or Minthara.

What you suggest wouldn't strictly be a bad approach, but I don't think that what I suggested requires someone who knows all the things you claim they know. It's the same way people keep saying Halsin can help even though they don't know that for an objective fact, as you've said before. It would just need to be someone who knows they've got a tadpole and thinks that the cult looks good. Frankly, I think that even just having a member of your party being in favour of the cult would achieve more or less the same result. Someone making a case that joining the cult is a good idea. They don't need to be anymore trustworthy than any of the people pointing you to Halsin.

On anothr note, I just want to make sure you know that while I am arguing against your points, I don't intend there to be any contention. I think your points are all valid and while I disagree, I do understand where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
On the contrary ... in game itself is several chances to be as gray as you wish.

Few examples:
You can kill Kagha to help the Tieflings negotiating that they stay ...
You can kill Zevlor to help the Druids drive out Tieflings, so Kagha dont kill them, when ritual is completed ...
You can kill Myconid Sovereign, so the other tribe of Myconids can be created there ...
You can also kill old Myconid Sovereign, so the current tribe can live ...
You can poison whole goblin camp (including women, childern and civilians), so you can help Owlbear cub to escape ...


These things are not gray at all, honestly. You kill someone in their own grove so guests/visitors can stay. Pretty evil.
Killing someone just to drive a group of refugees out. Pretty evil.
Killing a creature just so another tribe can settle there. Evil.
Poisoning sentient creatures, including children just so some random wild animal can escape is evil. (The killing in itself isn't neccesarily as goblins are evil creatures themselves. Poisoning might be closest to the morally grey, but the context here and the reason is kind of bad)

I do not know enough about the myconid story to judge on the other thing, context may define that situation better.

Morally gray is not just doing a bad thing for a good cause, that is not how Forgotten Realms work. It may be a thing for anti-heroes, sure. But those are not really morally gray in these situations. Killing people/stuff just to get something done is kind of easily defined as evil

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
It's not a secret to the player because it's pretty easy to run into the chance to join it.
I never claimed its "well hidden secret, that one must uncover for hours. laugh
Just a secret ... from definition, anything people dont tell you can be concidered a secret. wink

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If you follow Wyll's plan to take out the goblin leaders-which is necessary to complete his companion quest-then you'll walk into Minthara and she'll present to you the option to join in on the attack at the grove and you'll have the option to join it.
Well, yes ... but patch 3 added there some inner speaking, that i cant quite quote, since its some time allready ... where your character is thinking about using that option to simply lure her out and take advantage against her and her army.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Thanks for letting me know. I have not managed to get to the Underdark at all, the puzzle was bugged in my first playthrough and I haven't been able to get through another despite starting a couple.
Are you absolutely sure? Since i allready seen some people saing that puzzle was bugged ... yet they just had it the other way round. smile
Also, there are if i count right at least 4 entrances into the underdark ... you just need to keep searching. wink
- The temple of Selune
- Zentharim hideout
- Hag's house cellar
- Spider cave hole

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
He offers a cure? I thought Volo was just some bard. Clearly I need to interact with him next time because I want to know what that's about.
Yeah ... just make sure you saved your game. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
When I say trust here, I mean trust that they have the capacity, the actual ability to help you at all. Not that they will help you, but that they have anything to actually offer you.
Actualy you do ...
As i described abowe, and as you confrimed. laugh
They all 3 are tadpoled ... they are tadpoled certainly longer than you ... they are perfectly healthy ... therefore they are protected ... what have they in common, they all worship the same new Goddess, that seem to be connected to tadpoles ... therefore maybe if i wish to be protected to study my condition, i need to join them ...
I would not be able to join them, if i massacre them for Tieflings ... Do i care about Tieflings? Nope. Do i care about the Druids? Not even close. Do i owe anything to them? Nah. ... Is there any reason to let them stand in my way? Not at all. laugh

And even more actualy you dont even need to believe even that.
Lets say if you create character simmilar to Wyll, or someone with his Ego ... you might not even care about tadpole, since he actualy seem to not care about anything too much. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
that's me saying that it's failing to be the equally viable branch it seems like it's being presented as
And therefore asumption that should be "equally viable branch it seems like it's being presented as" ... might be false. O_o

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Like how if you show me a car and I say that it's not driving because it's missing parts, I'm not saying that it's not a car, I'm saying that it's a broken car.
This is not good example, since you know its a car and there is no doubt, and no argue about it.

It seems, to use simmilar example ...
Like you were examining an engine ... you would presume its a Car engine, even tho some parts dont quite look like other Car engines you know, but concidering its veight, its size, and look of those parts you recognize ... it seem a lot like Car engine ...
Then you find out its Bike engine, pretty massive one, and certainly that kind you would never expect in Bike ... but that dont change its purpose.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
someone who knows they've got a tadpole and thinks that the cult looks good
There is your contradiction ...
Base thesis of cult is that everyone in its leadership believes that their powers, are given by their Goddess ... not by parasitic tadpole.
So anyone involved fiting those parameters ... could not be involved from that reason.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Frankly, I think that even just having a member of your party being in favour of the cult would achieve more or less the same result. Someone making a case that joining the cult is a good idea. They don't need to be anymore trustworthy than any of the people pointing you to Halsin.
Yes, that sounds like good possibility.
I thinked that you mean some NPC from within the cult.

And since Larian confrimmed that we dont have all companions so far, its still potentialy opened.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
On anothr note, I just want to make sure you know that while I am arguing against your points, I don't intend there to be any contention. I think your points are all valid and while I disagree, I do understand where you're coming from.
My intention was never to persuade anyone, i simply state my opinion ...
As long as its clear, i have good feeling that i did my job right. laugh Who will take what of it, that is not up to me to decide. smile
Im glad there is at least someone on this forum capable of actual discusion ... so far i usualy get only repeating the same.

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
You kill someone in their own grove so guests/visitors can stay. Pretty evil.
More like "so people who were offered asylum from actual leader of the grove are not driven out to certain death" ...
But if killing someone in their own grove is a evil thing ... is killing Goblins, or even just their leaders, inside their own camp also Evil?

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Killing someone just to drive a group of refugees out. Pretty evil.
I see you probably didnt tryed that option ...
I should be more specific, my misstake.

In this case you are simple messenger, you are coming to Zevlor with message from Kagha, that she is demanding his people to move out right now ... she even asked you to offer them guarding on the way. Sadly, you never get to that, since once you get Zevlor Kagha's message, he attacks you.

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Killing a creature just so another tribe can settle there. Evil.
I wonder how do you like human history. laugh
Is also evil to wipe out Kobold nest to build a safer village there?
Its also evil to kill Kobolds around that same village a hundert years later, since those creatures are "endangering the helpless people who lives there for generations" ?

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Poisoning sentient creatures, including children just so some random wild animal can escape is evil. (The killing in itself isn't neccesarily as goblins are evil creatures themselves. Poisoning might be closest to the morally grey, but the context here and the reason is kind of bad)
To be specific, goblins are Neutral Evil ... meaning pure pragmatism and selfishness.
I dont see much difference from humans, to be honest. laugh

Sentience is relevant therm ...
Especialy since Larian created "talk with animals" like they are completely able to create whole sentences.
Also you helped that animal, so it can escape all torture and misstreatment it would get from goblins ... quite noble act, if you ask me.
You are just diminishing that animal, since it walks on all four limbs, and it dont talk usual way ...
I believe in world, where is pretty much possible to walk into half man half dragon / cat / hyena / bird / snake / lizzard / even the elephant ... and many more, the expresion of "sentient" is a little loosened.

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Morally gray is not just doing a bad thing for a good cause, that is not how Forgotten Realms work. It may be a thing for anti-heroes, sure. But those are not really morally gray in these situations. Killing people/stuff just to get something done is kind of easily defined as evil
You seem to have different definion than myself ...
You are only talking about what is not morally gray ... rather tell me what is?

I dunno ... it seems to me like all that Good / Neutral / Evil aligment stuff in DnD is working only with postscript "toward protagonists" ...
I dont believe that if one Goblin do something to another being, they concider that to be Evil ... those are simply things they usualy do, nothing more.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
SNIP

I mean, you are trying to pick apart my explanations/summaries with semantics that do not quite work in a black and white world. I have tried all the options (some several times, except the myconid one) so I was able to base my response around contect too.

Also nobody said human history was full of good guys. Aside from our world not being a world were forces of Good and Evil can literally manifest, human history is full of awful stuff. Stuff that is definatly very evil if we are to speak in those terms.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You are only talking about what is not morally gray ... rather tell me what is?

Correct. Because then we would be dwelling more to other settings (Or real life, I suppose. As you sort of semi-mentioned that. But that is a different thing alltogether). The tendacy to pick every single sentence apart did not really make me too invested in the situation to start looking for, and writing examples admittedly. It would also end up straying far off-topic which is not a thing anyone wants. So I kept it related to Forgotten Realms, the setting BG3 is set in.

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I take it as "actualy i dont know". wink


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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It is more a "I do not care enough to try and argue with one stranger on the internet who is adamant on being right and going off-topic while doing it" but.. hey. Take it as you will. I am not losing sleep over it and do not feel a need to prove myself and nitpick every bit of argument someone else makes.

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I would not call answering simple question an argue ...
But hey, if you wish to have plugged ears, closed eyes and feel like you being right just bcs you yell louder ... i gues you can. laugh


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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Cut out the snarkiness here.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
From an in-character perspective, we have a character that knows far more than most people in the setting about the tadpoles presenting a definite way to get rid of them. It's not even like she's vague about the method, she describes a process of removal and and I didn't encounter any reason to suspect she was lying at all in my playthrough. So from an in-character perspective, her solution is as close to a guarantee as we get.
Just started another playthrough (hopefully not going to finish it due to patch4 arriving :P) - THERE ABSOLUTELY IS a reason not to trust Lae'zel: In the conversation after her interrogation of Zorru, you can peer into her thoughts ([WISDOM]) and it becomes clear she is hiding something regarding the purification, so, yeah...

My guess it's going to be something like: "They are going to perform the purification on me (maybe), but you slaves are going to be fed to the dragons."

Buy it might be something else regarding the purification.

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Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
From an in-character perspective, we have a character that knows far more than most people in the setting about the tadpoles presenting a definite way to get rid of them. It's not even like she's vague about the method, she describes a process of removal and and I didn't encounter any reason to suspect she was lying at all in my playthrough. So from an in-character perspective, her solution is as close to a guarantee as we get.
Just started another playthrough (hopefully not going to finish it due to patch4 arriving :P) - THERE ABSOLUTELY IS a reason not to trust Lae'zel: In the conversation after her interrogation of Zorru, you can peer into her thoughts ([WISDOM]) and it becomes clear she is hiding something regarding the purification, so, yeah...

My guess it's going to be something like: "They are going to perform the purification on me (maybe), but you slaves are going to be fed to the dragons."

Buy it might be something else regarding the purification.

It's sort of a reason not to trust Lae'zel, but she has proven to know the most about Mindflayers and has a lead to deal with the tadpoles. (Gale knows around as much, but does not provide a lead.) So she isn't lying, and I don't think she's being deceiving - she's a pretty straight forward character. But I think what she is hiding is that she is unsure of the process herself, whether they are even worthy of it, or if purification itself is just death itself. She has the same look during the Gith Patrol scene when she is unsure of what's going down.
I also don't think she's pulling all this out of thin air because she mentioned she studied extensively in the libraries of her creche.

It's like, it may be a good lead, and I don't have any reason to believe she's lying, but it's best to prepare for it as a tough road to go down. Which is also an in game reason to yes, understand Lae'zel's urgency, but to also know that you shouldn't run into it without being prepared. At present, it is too easy to make the mistake of making a bee line to the Gith Patrol scene, only to get wrecked as a new player. It would be nice if they could add some more overt element that you should probably gain some experience under your belt before going that route.

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The thing that bugs me about Lae'zel's lead and her questline is that it feels like it's meant to be the primary lead we're supposed to follow. She's the first proper NPC we meet, the first companion, and the purification ritual and the option of the creche is quite literally one of the first pieces of information we get in the game. And yet based on the difficulty of the combat and the levels of the Githyanki patrols, as well as how far away it is relatively speaking, it's obviously not the intention that we beeline straight for that obvious dangling carrot they hung in front of us.

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Then again, even if you try to go Lae'zel's route directly, you still typically have enough rests and interactions to realize things aren't as urgent as they seem at the beginning. And as long as you are not completely speedrunning and ignoring everything else, you'll probably be at least lvl3 at that encounter. Though I do think it should be easier to avoid that fight.

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