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Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Savage North
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Savage North
UI, Controls, QoL : Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5.
Roleplay, Story, Immersion : Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.
Mechanisms : Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4.

Spoilers warning for forum readers

I have played up to the camp celebration. I tried to avoid most side-quests, and I mostly focused on Halsin as an option for our tadpole problem. I want to see as little content as possible, keeping it for when the game will be finished. So if you are a player who has not reached that point of the story, beware, spoilers ahead. Also, please don't spoil me.




CAMERA



The camera can travel too far for scouting/exploration purposes.

If we can fly around like an invisible floating orb, it is too easy for the players to see things the characters shouldn't see, and to take the optimal path of approach. In particular : we can go through walls or doors and see if enemies are in the next room. It would be more fun to have to scout by our own party's means, if we want to scout.


The camera does not travel far enough for medium-fast travel.

The real problem here is that there is no real option for medium-fast travel (moving fast enough to a point that is somewhat distant, in an already fully-explored area). So I end up using the camera for travel, and do a single click, instead of following my party all the way through known (explored) areas and boringly clicking on the ground every two seconds.


It is often hard to get a good view of the location we are in.

We cannot zoom out far enough to have a broader view. We cannot rotate the camera up and down, so in particular we cannot look up. As a result, I have sometimes missed areas at first, even though they weren't exactly hidden or secret.

I'm all-in for exploring the many secrets that you have placed in this region of Faerun. Going to the right places, talking to people, reading books, etc, is already a good deal of exploration. Additionally, observation of our surroundings sounds like an interesting gaming proposition. But it shouldn't be about wrestling with the limited camera movement to get good angles. I feel you want us to do something but you didn't give us the tool to do it.


In combat, it can be difficult to assess the situation or select targets.

Some typically difficult situations :
- Targeting when we are grounded and the enemy is high above.
- Targeting when the battlefield is wide. Sometimes it is hard to simultaneously see my ranged attacker, my target, and whether or not auto-positioning will take place and consume some of my movement.
- Trying to understanding what's happening when the enemy is playing and the view is obscured by pillars, walls, roofs or else.
- Trying to understanding what's happening when a critical hit happens. The cutscene seems to never been in an appropriate place.


The tactical camera cannot zoom out enough.

It doesn't provide that much help in some battlefields.


I sometimes manage to have the camera fall in a pit.

The only way I can get it out is double-clicking on a character.




******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************



VERTICALITY DOES NOT WORK



At the moment, verticality does not work.

First, it is not always practical to engage with verticality, because of the camera.

Second and more importantly, many aspects of the game feel as if they are programmed for a 2-dimensional world, whereas, in my understanding at least, verticality implies a game world that is not only visually 3-dimensional but also plays fully in 3 dimensions. I don't know when it became a big part of your vision for this game, but you have touted verticality, so performing poorly on this is very noticeable and a bit embarrassing.


It is often difficulty to target enemies that are much higher.

As said above, it can be quite difficult to select as target very high enemies for a ranged attack when all your team is below, because of the camera.

Example : in the goblin fortress, if you are on the ground and you have goblin archers on the beams/girders (yes, I'm learning English architecture words as I'm writing this), you'll have a hard time shooting at them.


Spells having problems with 3-dimensionality.

Many spells behave badly in a highly 3D battleground.

One part of the problem is that it is difficult to choose a target, which can be a creature or a centre point for an AOE, especially when this target is higher. The problem here is not the camera controls and the selection of the target, it's the mechanism. Some spells tell us our target is "too high", when an arrow or another spell can perfectly reach. It seems as if the caster of these spells assumes that the creature or centre point of the AOE must be on the same level as them.

The other part of the problem is that not all AOE seem to be 3D-compatible. Silence looks like it works properly. But a spell like Bless or Sleep seems to think in a strongly 2D fashion. If I centre it on a point on the lower ground, only lower-ground creatures can be affected, while if she centres it on a point on the upper ground, only upper-ground creatures can be affected. It is baffling that the spell cannot target creatures of different altitude. (And as explained elsewhere, there are other problems with Bless in particular.).


Conversation cutscenes happen regardless of height.

It seems that the triggers for some conversations are thought of in 2D.

Example : in the room with the caged priest of Maglubiyet. My PC was 5m above, on an elevated platform, and not in line of sight. Upon entering the room area at that altitude, a cutscene triggers. Suddenly, my PC is at the level of the cage, talking to the priest. But after the conversation, I'm back to the elevated platform ! Really not great for credibility and immersion.


Enemy line of sight covers all altitudes.

It feels as if you have programmed a 2D vision cone, which ignores height. This leads to being detected at vertical distances longer than the horizontal distances at which we could be seen.

Striking examples : the beams in the goblin fortress, or the underground tunnel under the Druid Grove when entering from the forest.


The foundation block near the chapel can be cut with a sword.

That is another game system that thinks in 2D. Using Cleave or Thunderwave makes the block that is hanging high above ground fall. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other very 2D ways to do that, I haven't tried everything.


Climbing ladders costs no movement.

You can cross more distance (actual, 3D distance) with one ladder than with a horizontal move. A tiny puddle of mud slows you down (or consumes a Bonus Action if you want to jump above it), but a ladder is not remotely difficult terrain !


Throwing items seems to ignore verticality.

I would have no problems with arrows or bolts : ranged weapons are all about giving projectiles more momentum than you could with your arms. But I am a bit more dubious of the throwing of grenades.

Examples :
- In the goblin fortress, enemies on the ground can throw fire potions in the beams.
- In the blighted village, enemies on the lowest ground (south gate) can throw potions on the roof.

This is perhaps the intent, but I found it quite surprising.


The Jump spell does not allow me to play with verticality.

At the moment, it triples the jumping distance, but that distance is only usable in 2D. In a 3D world, the 3D distance should be used. If the spell makes characters magically-better at jumping, then all jumping directions should be logically be affected.

Also, since you want to make verticality a big thing in the game, this is an opportunity not to miss. Yes, Feather Fall is cool. But Jump needs to be a source of verticality-related fun as well.






Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
Joined: Jun 2020
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These are all pretty valid criticisms, and the majority of them are still issues as of the latest patch.

I definitely second the attention drawn to these issues.

Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
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Excellent points, I kind of wish they were all together in the same thread so it could form a massive sticky, but I just read through everything and its all nails on the head.

Also for verticality, in addition to everything mentioned above, as of the last patch my characters are constantly getting stuck when climbing down stuff. I noticed it in the prologue during the first imp fight, and again at the gates to the druids grove, and then just all over the place since They get caught, and then start wigging out and vibrating in place with audio on the fritz as well like hep hep hep. Selecting another PC frequently just causes more than one character to get stuck this way on a vertical transition, owing to chicken run syndrome. I've had 3 PCs at once all doing it. Reloading will snap em out of it, but that's a pretty big stall given the average load times.

Anyhow, great feedback. Hopefully its taken up

Joined: Sep 2015
old hand
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Joined: Sep 2015
Regarding cut scenes you can go even further.

I was in the house of the hag and my party was standing where I defeated the masked guys.
I send my animal companion (spider) down to scout.
The cutscene with the hag triggered, showing my characters standing right next to her.
After the cutscene my characters were still standing a miile away.

- It would be really nice if we could select targets of spells/items/abilities by clicking on portraits, both for party members and also for enemies or NPC allies in combat.
This would not solve the camera problem though.


groovy Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist groovy

World leading expert of artificial stupidity.
Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already :hihi:
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
old hand
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Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Excellent points. I should also add that playing as halfling seemed to break in some way every cutscene. Hilarious stuff.

Your points about verticality being core concept of the game, but unsupported by design is very on point. I have to give Solasta a go after I am done with BG3 EA. From what I understand, they use cubes, rather then flat squares for movement. Game played super clunky back when I tried it during crowdfunding, but using 3 dimentional system for movement seemed to work well.

Joined: Jan 2021
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With the ladder stuff, it feels like the game is completely overlooking the simple climbing rules that exist in the tabletop: you climb at half speed (quarter speed if it's difficult terrain), and need Athletics checks to proceed if it's a slippery or otherwise difficult-to-climb surface. It seems like something that should be simple to implement and that would, if not for jumping, add a little more tactical depth to the higher ground/lower ground thing because you'd have to consider the extra movement costs against the benefits.

Last edited by Rooadie; 29/01/21 06:46 PM.

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