Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 18 of 25 1 2 16 17 18 19 20 24 25
Joined: Dec 2020
B
Banned
Offline
Banned
B
Joined: Dec 2020
Good drows/tielfing are not a twist on the stereotpye but the denial of them.
A twist on the evil drow stereotype would be for them to be evil in a peculiar fashion, in an unexpected way.

Joined: May 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2016
Originally Posted by Bruh
Good drows/tielfing are not a twist on the stereotpye but the denial of them.
A twist on the evil drow stereotype would be for them to be evil in a peculiar fashion, in an unexpected way.

Honestly I am confused by the tiefling of BG3. They are supposed to be these loners that become evil because they are shunned. These guys have a whole freaking community and the overwhelming majority of them seem to be well adjusted.

Joined: Dec 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Bruh
Good drows/tielfing are not a twist on the stereotpye but the denial of them.
A twist on the evil drow stereotype would be for them to be evil in a peculiar fashion, in an unexpected way.

Honestly I am confused by the tiefling of BG3. They are supposed to be these loners that become evil because they are shunned. These guys have a whole freaking community and the overwhelming majority of them seem to be well adjusted.

They are? I thought they were supposed to be refugees? strong community because all they have is each other, hated by the outside world because of the current events (descent into avernus) that forced them into the world+prejudice against them.

Tieflings in random parts of the world are often loners, but the ones in BG3 are stated as being from the place where they had a thriving community and were those shunned loners would flee to to find community, before it all went to hell. literally and they lost that home too.
If we get, driven to become evil from being shunned, I'd expect that to come from if they are refused entry to BG city when they arrive?

Tiefling in most DnD stories are either driven to evil by infernal forces inside them which is boring, or by being isolated and not having others accept them which is a story BG already has with Vicona in BG1-2
idk, it seems to me Larian was going for tieflings as refugees in BG3 not tieflings as set up for their becoming villains?


Minthara is the best character and she NEEDS to be recruitable if you side with the grove!
Also- I support the important thread in the suggestions: Let everyone in the Party Speak
Joined: Mar 2013
S
veteran
Offline
veteran
S
Joined: Mar 2013
>Wyll is no one
yes, im sorry but he isnt very masculine
>Shadowheart
shes the closest we get, i said that before, but i think "spitefull bitch is actually a functional human beeing deep down" is not what i meant when i said that

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
I'd like to see more normal companions...

Again, it's Larian's style and everything has to be absolutely so special...

A vampire emo, a githyanki princess or something like that, a human that had sex with a god, another that has a pact with a demon (being a warlock won't necessary lead to such special stories... Hello custom warlock).
The most usual companion is probably Shadowheart but I'm sure they have surprises for us...
And what about Karlach that is probably going to be another companion...

I really miss the old BG companions...
Their story was not deep enough for a new game but their background look plausible.

I fear that in BG3, it's going to be another overdose of originality.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/12/20 08:32 AM.

French Speaking Youtube Channel with a lot of BG3 videos : https://www.youtube.com/c/maximuuus
Joined: Jun 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by Sordak
i dont hate female dwarves, they can be neat.

But make male characters that are more traditionally masculine.
And not in the Cocky athlete stereotype, make a Bro, someone who has your back. Someone that acts like Men act when they are in trouble together.

And while were at it, some female character that embraces positive feminine qualiites

What are positive feminine qualities?

I am seriously curious what people think, because this is an important subject.

But for instance, lets say you think of Aerie as a "real woman". Her shyness, her vulnerability, her inexperience, these are not feminine attributes (these are attributes a phallocentric mind wants to force unto women, but that is another question). Being a push over is not a girly thing to do. And I know Aerie has an evolution as a female character and grows a spine in Throne of Bhaal, still it is obvious whom the writers were trying to please with her...

I would also argue that Wyll is traditionally masculine. He wants to be a hero, he wants to measure up to a hyper masculine standard. He is action-oriented, he has anger issues, and he has a kinda swagger. He is black though (which is for some people a feminizing quality, see how Obama was feminized by the GOP, despite being quite frankly a manly man).

Joined: Dec 2020
B
Banned
Offline
Banned
B
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Starshine
They are? I thought they were supposed to be refugees? strong community because all they have is each other, hated by the outside world because of the current events (descent into avernus) that forced them into the world+prejudice against them.

Tieflings in random parts of the world are often loners, but the ones in BG3 are stated as being from the place where they had a thriving community and were those shunned loners would flee to to find community, before it all went to hell. literally and they lost that home too.
If we get, driven to become evil from being shunned, I'd expect that to come from if they are refused entry to BG city when they arrive?

Tiefling in most DnD stories are either driven to evil by infernal forces inside them which is boring, or by being isolated and not having others accept them which is a story BG already has with Vicona in BG1-2
idk, it seems to me Larian was going for tieflings as refugees in BG3 not tieflings as set up for their becoming villains?
You don't have to be a villain in order to be evil. Most evil people are just petty creatures who want their creature comforts. To be a villain, you need ambition.

Originally Posted by Kadajko
Honestly I am confused by the tiefling of BG3. They are supposed to be these loners that become evil because they are shunned. These guys have a whole freaking community and the overwhelming majority of them seem to be well adjusted.
Yeah I really hate that. Tieflings aren't supposed to be these nice, pretty much normal people who just happen to have horns. I am going to murder them with all my characters, because they are devilspawn and devilspawn deserve to be obliterated for everyone's sake. Same goes for goblins, drow, etc etc.

Joined: Dec 2020
B
Banned
Offline
Banned
B
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
What are positive feminine qualities?

I am seriously curious what people think, because this is an important subject.

But for instance, lets say you think of Aerie as a "real woman". Her shyness, her vulnerability, her inexperience, these are not feminine attributes (these are attributes a phallocentric mind wants to force unto women, but that is another question). Being a push over is not a girly thing to do. And I know Aerie has an evolution as a female character and grows a spine in Throne of Bhaal, still it is obvious whom the writers were trying to please with her...

I would also argue that Wyll is traditionally masculine. He wants to be a hero, he wants to measure up to a hyper masculine standard. He is action-oriented, he has anger issues, and he has a kinda swagger. He is black though (which is for some people a feminizing quality, see how Obama was feminized by the GOP, despite being quite frankly a manly man).

Yeah but as a guy what kind of mind are you supposed to have if not a phallocentric one? I love being phallocentric, and I don't want to change that about myself.
And yeah I do consider Aerie to be a real woman, her shyness, vulnerability and inexperience are not exclusively female qualities, but they evoke my caretaker response.
Contrast her with Viconia, who is callous, cruel and an experienced lover, and you will notice that the only difference between Viconia and Aerie is that Viconia isn't honest about her own vulnerability. Her whole romance plot is about getting under her armor of hatred and violence to touch her real heart.
Aerie maybe shy, but she is courageous, while Viconia isn't shy, but she puts up this elaborate play to keep people at a distance. Both of them are very feminine, because they are both vulnerable and seek your support and strength to fall back on.
Jaheira however is none of that. She is the masculine one of the BG2 bunch. Romancing Jaheira is like dating a guy, but she is not overdone like Laezel, which is nice. If you observe the relationship between Aerie and Jaheira you can't really say that Aerie is a pushover. She literally stands up to everyone around her and goes on the offensive on both Jaheira and Viconia.
Jaheira and Viconia are both nagging shrews, which is what I would describe as a negative feminine quality, while Aerie is kind and nurturing, which I would call a positive feminine quality.
Which is funny, because I consider kindness and nurturing to be a positive masculine quality as well.

However I must disagree on Wyll. He is not traditionally masculine at all. He is practically a parody of classical masculinity, because he just oozes bravado and really wants to show off and prove himself in the eyes of others (which is not masculine, but insecure). Wyll is basically what I would call a representative of playful machismo. Don't get me wrong, I like Wyll, but he is more of a boy then a man.

Last edited by Bruh; 23/12/20 10:29 AM.
Joined: Jun 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
I will start with Wyll.

The heart of traditional (toxic) masculinity is insecurity. Like watch a Zack Snyder movie, it is all about insecurity (his mostly).

Yes, Wyll is a very good example of that, how he tries to measure up to a standard he will never be able to. I would also argue that his bravado is exactly what traditional masculinity is all about, not about strength but about the appearance of impenetrability (if we want to go that deep into it :D).

About femininity and phallocentrism (which is another word for sexist, and no not all men have to have sexist mindsets).

Being vulnerable is not feminine quality. We are human-beings. We are all exposed and vulnerable. And it is funny that you singled out Jaheira as not feminine enough for you, cause yes, she was the least written to crater to a sort of male fantasy as she was the most complex. She was a person bound by duty to her order and scarred by a tragic loss of her love. While Aerie is the submissive kitten and Viconia is the dominatrix with a heart of gold (and these like are the oldest sexist archetypes).

Joined: Mar 2013
S
veteran
Offline
veteran
S
Joined: Mar 2013
>these are not feminine attributes
wrong, they are, but some of them are attributes of a particulary inexpirienced women.

However, positive female traits are not male traits. Forwardness, stubborness, rudeness, beeing taciturn, thick headedness and recklessness are not what i would call positive female attributes.

Id say positive female attributes are: Compassion, Dignity, Demureness, Nurturing good qualities in others, beeing an example in virtue, respectfulness, leadership by high expectations, Offering of Redemption rather than forgiveness, Spirituality, guidance, beeing an examplar for a cause rather than just af ollower

a strong female character TM (i hate that term), shows dignity and is composed, she doesnt lash out under stress, and guides others to be what they need to be.
I understand that people mistake direct stern leadership for a pureley positive concept, as it is associated with power. But a good feminine character leads by holding herself and others to a high standard, a feminine leader makes others want to be better than they are, rather than shouting at them to behave as such.

Showing weakness is not a flaw of a feminine character. It can be a demand.
Both a demand for others to drop their guard and be honest, aswell as one for others to step up and do their part.

>inb4 this is letting other people do the work
leadership is a desireable quality both in men and women and it always requries delegation.


As a contrast ill give you some positive male qualities and leadership abilities:
Stoicism, Bravery in the face of fear opposed to a lack of fear, Self Sacrifice, Comradrie, Loyalty to a cause and allies, Making bad descisions rather than no descisions-> descisiveness, saying only things that need to be said, no plattitues

Male leadership is about: leading by example, show not tell, getting a heterogenous group to work together by bridging the gaps, rousing people with words and deeds to give them a cause, accountability, answering for descisions made while also not undermining the authority when not the leader, integrating the weakest links in the chain rather then bullying them and creating a weakness


Or to put it down bluntly: a masculine leader shows HOW to follow a cause, a feminine leader shows WHY to follow it





Those are just some examples of classic positive male and female traits and leadership skills.
I could go onf or hours. Of course you could say "Duh all of those things are good a human should know all of these"; but this is not true. some of these are diametrically opposed to one another, and both kinds of leadership are required in Humans.


>ON aerie und vici
i pretty much agree with this analysis of both of those characters.
Note that vulnerability always plays a part in relationship building both for men and women, tho typically male positive romantic qualities is beeing someone who you can rely on when you are vulnerable, so typically vulnerability is less pronounced in male characters in romance.

>On Wyll
So all the "male "characteristics you see on him are negative, maybe thats the issue. Maybe thats also why you use the word "Toxic masculinity".
Theres the first red flag, then you start throwing around the word sexist and im thinking maybe youre not the right person to debate these topics, you obviously have some issues to work on yourself.
regardless:
Wyll is not a very Masculine character.
In the sense that Manhood in most Human cultures is, opposed to womanhood, earned rather than given.
You are expected to grow out of the bravado and the bragging, you are expected to restrain your anger and channel it into something producitve.
In that sense, Wyll is not very manly at all.

He is more reminiscent of a late teenager trying his best good boy / bad boy routine. But not a man.
Either that, or he is a man written by someone who has some very bad opinions on men.

Last edited by Sordak; 23/12/20 11:03 AM.
Joined: Jun 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
Yes, I would argue these have nothing to do with gender or sex. Only with gendered expectations.

You very arbitrarily divide the spectrum of human emotion and decide what is okay for women and men to assume. Sorry, but this is exactly what toxic masculinity is about.

I don't want to judge and don't know your background or age group, but for me, this sounds very old-school and harmful for all parties included.

Originally Posted by Sordak
>
So all the "male "characteristics you see on him are negative, maybe thats the issue. Maybe thats also why you use the word "Toxic masculinity".
Theres the first red flag, then you start throwing around the word sexist and im thinking maybe youre not the right person to debate these topics, you obviously have some issues to work on yourself.

No need to get into personal insults, my dude. I didn't say I hate Wyll or he is unappealing to me, I said he is a very good case study of the crisis of masculinity.

Last edited by spacehamster95; 23/12/20 11:03 AM.
Joined: Mar 2013
S
veteran
Offline
veteran
S
Joined: Mar 2013
>nothing to do with gender or sex
Everything to do with gender or sex, if you dont believe me i urge you to read a bit into Evolutionary Psychology and group dynamics.
These are archetypes that humanity has known and perpetuated since before antiquity and they have been well explained by now.

>he is a very good case study of the crisis of masculinity
Exactly. youre right on that.
hes a case study on young men with no father figures that never learn restraint and accountability.
There is indeed a problem with this in the western world due to rising numbers of absantee fathers and single mothers that dont know how to deal with a physically and emotionally powerfull young asshole thats confused and doesnt know what to do with his life.


>this is what toxic masculinity is all about
Toxic masculinity is a Feminist talking point created to deride men and male behaviour.
Nothing more.
What you discribe is the behaviour of a teenager that hasnt learned to be mature yet. This is normal in Humans, but not past a certain age. Attributing it to "men" or "masculinity" is ridiculous.
>Harmfull
To whom?
Everything i have said is positivisitc, if people behaved more like that, they would be more happy.

Joined: May 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2016
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
What are positive feminine qualities?

I am seriously curious what people think, because this is an important subject.

I like this:

One thing to note though is that feminine =/= female and masculine =/= male, males can be feminine and females can be masculine and both can be somwhere in between.

Last edited by Kadajko; 23/12/20 11:25 AM.
Joined: Jun 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by Sordak
>nothing to do with gender or sex
Everything to do with gender or sex, if you dont believe me i urge you to read a bit into Evolutionary Psychology and group dynamics.
These are archetypes that humanity has known and perpetuated since before antiquity and they have been well explained by now.

>this is what toxic masculinity is all about
Toxic masculinity is a Feminist talking point created to deride men and male behaviour.
Nothing more.
What you discribe is the behaviour of a teenager that hasnt learned to be mature yet. This is normal in Humans, but not past a certain age. Attributing it to "men" or "masculinity" is ridiculous.
>Harmfull
To whom?
Everything i have said is positivisitc, if people behaved more like that, they would be more happy.

Let's agree to disagree.

Toxic masculinity is not a feminist "creation". You cannot shoot the messenger cause they bring bad news. I have studied feminist theory (though it is not my field) and they make extremely important points and exciting discoveries.

I am a literary scholar and not a biologist but frankly the term "Evolutionary Psychology" screams pseudo-science to me.

The last statement about how people would be happy if only they would live the way that pleases you, that is let's say troubling.

Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
What are positive feminine qualities?

I am seriously curious what people think, because this is an important subject.

I like this:

One thing to note though is that feminine =/= female and masculine =/= male, males can be feminine and females can be masculine.

Agreed. I found the traditional dichotomy largely unhelpful to fully map out the human psyche.

Last edited by spacehamster95; 23/12/20 11:24 AM.
Joined: May 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2016
Originally Posted by Sordak
Toxic masculinity is a Feminist talking point created to deride men and male behaviour.

It's basically wounded masculine in the picture that I showed, there is also toxic femininity aka wounded feminine.

I don't think there needs to be seperation between what are positive qualities for males or females, there are just a bunch of positive qualities and the more of those you have the better, both masculine and feminine.

Last edited by Kadajko; 23/12/20 11:41 AM.
Joined: Mar 2013
S
veteran
Offline
veteran
S
Joined: Mar 2013
Some of these qualities are diametrically opposed however. And sometimes it just takes two people to tackle a problem.

men and women are literaly made for one another. i dont know how such a wholesome statement could be considered so controversial.
For what its worth, men and women do things differently and thus they get things done.

This might be a bitter pill to swallow but some characteristics are immuteable and some things you cannot escape, unless you count hormone therapy which literaly changes your brain chemistry, but thats too complex a topic to get into right now.

Id like to remind you of that book about a woman who decided to live as a man for a year, only to discover that despite herself seeing herself as a very masculine woman, men saw her as an overly feminine men when disguised.

Im not saying you CANNOT have feminine traits as a man and vice versa.
Im saying that youll eventually be a man with some feminine qualities. These cannot just be swapped around.


And this only takes into account a single Human beeing.
Once you introduce more people (such as in lets say an adventuring party) you start getting group behaviours which are even more influenced by evolutionary biology.
Read up on the American military and how group dynamics change when women and men are in mixed units.
The same behaviour when done by a man and by a woman will have a different effect.

And no, this is not due to some kind of negative tinted "sexism" or anything else nefarious. This is due to men and women beeing different, having different bodies and having different evolutionary pressures.
it is human instinct to save a woman. An instict that both men and women share. This comes from the simple fact that if half your men died, your tribe could recover within one generation, if half your women died the same wasnt true. And such people in combat situations will always gravitate towards securing the womans safetey.
Hence why a woman leading the charge in the same way as a man would, leads to a different leaderhsip effect.

A man charging headlong into the fray will show his commitment to self saccrifice for the cause.
a woman charging headlong into the fray will prompt a protective response from the rest of the team.

Spacehamster:
So you have STUDIED "Feminist theory" but evolutionary biology sounds like pseudoscience to you?
yeah lets agree to disagree because i dont think this is going to get anywhere.

Joined: May 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2016
Originally Posted by Sordak
Some of these qualities are diametrically opposed however. And sometimes it just takes two people to tackle a problem.

Sure, but it doesn't matter which side you are on regardless of your sex.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Men and women are literaly made for one another. i dont know how such a wholesome statement could be considered so controversial.

Sure. I don't think it's controversial, if we are talking about reproduction.

Originally Posted by Sordak
For what its worth, men and women do things differently and thus they get things done.

Individuals do things differently regardless of their sex.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Id like to remind you of that book about a woman who decided to live as a man for a year, only to discover that despite herself seeing herself as a very masculine woman, men saw her as an overly feminine men when disguised.

Haven't read the book, but I guess she had a faulty perception of how masculine she actually was.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Im not saying you CANNOT have feminine traits as a man and vice versa.
Im saying that youll eventually be a man with some feminine qualities. These cannot just be swapped around.

What are you even trying to say here? I am confused. You just said that you can have feminine traits as a man, that means you can be a feminine man.. so what cannot be swapped?


Originally Posted by Sordak
And this only takes into account a single Human beeing.
Once you introduce more people (such as in lets say an adventuring party) you start getting group behaviours which are even more influenced by evolutionary biology.
Read up on the American military and how group dynamics change when women and men are in mixed units.
The same behaviour when done by a man and by a woman will have a different effect.

If you put a bunch of feminine men and a bunch of masculine men into the same unit the dynamic will also be different than if it was a group of all likeminded individuals. Once again, sex is irrelevant, it's the individual.

Originally Posted by Sordak
This is due to men and women beeing different, having different bodies and having different evolutionary pressures.

Individuals also have different biology. I know there are tendencies, but in society we ought to judge everyone on an individual basis. Also one thing you have to understand is that biology is often dumb and it is not in your best interest to blindly follow it, I'll give you an example:

I had an ear canal infection once, which messed up my vestibular system, during that time I had motion sickness and constantly wanted to vommit, because my lizard brain thought that it's because I ate something poisonous, but I knew better because I was diagnosed at the hospital, so fought the urge to vommit constantly to keep down the food and water to get well faster rather than give into the instinct and be sick while hungry and dehydrated.

Last edited by Kadajko; 23/12/20 12:41 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
I'd actually like to throw my hat into the ring on this one: I think that Wyll is actually a decent example of fairly healthy masculinity. The man is relentlessly nice to you. One especially clear example is the Tiefling party where everyone is like "Oh you're sleeping with them? Ok suuuure." but Wyll just congratulates you and moves on. He never claims to be in charge, never criticizes you unless you do something incredibly heinous, and very rarely fits the toxic masculinity talking points on @Kadajko's little chart. He actually firs the "natural masculine" section very well. I also never really saw his journey for heroism to be him trying to live up to an impossible standard, but rather him trying to improve himself. We know that Wyll used to be a *really* bad person. He was a spoiled nobleman, then a thief, then a member of the Fist. He then fell in with Mizora, which is something he is, by the time we meet him, actively trying to rectify. The only possible thing that could be percieved as "toxic masculinity" about him is his anger issues. Other than that, Wyll is a rather masculine man who is healthy, supportive, and nothing but kind to you.


I honestly hope you have a most marvelous day!
Joined: Jun 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by Sordak
Spacehamster:
So you have STUDIED "Feminist theory" but evolutionary biology sounds like pseudoscience to you?
yeah lets agree to disagree because i dont think this is going to get anywhere.

Dude, you are so full of it. You used the phrase "Evolutionary Psychology", not evolutionary biology. Big difference. Also, arguing from a point of essentialism that your argument represents the natural order of things is like a century late.

Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
I'd actually like to throw my hat into the ring on this one: I think that Wyll is actually a decent example of fairly healthy masculinity. The man is relentlessly nice to you. One especially clear example is the Tiefling party where everyone is like "Oh you're sleeping with them? Ok suuuure." but Wyll just congratulates you and moves on. He never claims to be in charge, never criticizes you unless you do something incredibly heinous, and very rarely fits the toxic masculinity talking points on @Kadajko's little chart. He actually firs the "natural masculine" section very well. I also never really saw his journey for heroism to be him trying to live up to an impossible standard, but rather him trying to improve himself. We know that Wyll used to be a *really* bad person. He was a spoiled nobleman, then a thief, then a member of the Fist. He then fell in with Mizora, which is something he is, by the time we meet him, actively trying to rectify. The only possible thing that could be percieved as "toxic masculinity" about him is his anger issues. Other than that, Wyll is a rather masculine man who is healthy, supportive, and nothing but kind to you.

I like Wyll, too. I didn't mean that he was a bad person. I totally imagine my pc being mates with him. I meant that his insecurities about himself, as the so-called Blade of Frontiers, spring from his insecurities about being the Man. On the note that he was only trying to improve himself, well he chose the short cut approach on that front, with the devil's deal, so he had a sort of hybris, a dramatic sin in that regard (which in my mind makes his story even more compelling). The point I was trying to make that he was a masculine guy (reacting to posts claiming that he was too feminine for some reason).

Last edited by spacehamster95; 23/12/20 01:04 PM.
Joined: Dec 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
As a woman, I have to wonder what strange and really old fashioned views some of the male player here have. I really hope, we won't get an Aerie or a Viconia again.

Last edited by fylimar; 23/12/20 01:07 PM.

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Page 18 of 25 1 2 16 17 18 19 20 24 25

Moderated by  Dom_Larian, Freddo, vometia 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5