Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Dealing with this Game Balance Obsession

Larian is not building the game around people doing that, so if you don't like it - just don't use it - and you get your fun back.

If it was garbage it could be refuted in a single sentece, but you can't do it, because you know it's true. Sucks to be on the wrong side of history I guess.

Everything is build arround such cheesy things, just in case you didn't notice

Max, you seem to have gotten quite worked up over the circlet, please just take a few moments to consider this:

Having at +4 in your primary offence stat at level 4 is fairly normal. Still having a +4 in your primary offence stat at level 8 is common and acceptable, but not ideal. Still having a +4 in your primary casting state at 12 or beyond is generally going to be considered a weakness.

In the DMG, this circlet is an uncommon magic item; it is precisely the kind of item you might pull out of low level treasure, and is exactly the kind of thing adventurers in the level 1-4 bracket might find. The circlet in the DMG is actually more powerful than this one - it sets your Int to 19, which is a mostly academic difference except for one edge case that may well be relevant in this particular game (18 Int is not immune to being brain-blasted by an intellect devourer, while 19 Int is).

No-one who uses Int as their main casting state is going to want to tank that stat just to go grab this circlet - because they will want to push their int to 20 as soon as they reasonably can, in most cases. They also probably don't want to have that equipment slot unavailable for the rest of the game. More likely, your wizard on 16 or 17 at the start of the game, will get this and enjoy a +1 benefit until such a point as they up their own Int to equal and then surpass it, before handing the circlet on to someone else.

Intelligence, as an ability score, is actually a very low value ability, compared to others (There is no "set Dex to 18" equivalent item in the DMG because such an item would need to be legendary rarity, in terms of its functional value).

For classes that don't use intelligence, having a 10 or having an 18 in the ability yields only very marginal benefits - you're better with knowledge related checks, which are usually social and exploration tools. A benefit, yes, but not a game-breaking one by any stretch.

The only situations that really gain any good value from this item at all, are the branch casters - 1/3 casters like Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster - coincidentally two of the very few limited subclasses put into the game already. These characters generally still want to favour their primary stat, and may not have very high Intelligence by default (a player planning to class that way is likely to have given it more attention though). A player with foreknowledge could certainly ignore their In and faovur others abilities, planning on getting this item... but they'd be no better off than any other fighter who favours strength, dex and con above all else, or a rogue who favours dex con and charisma above other things. The boost to 18 for their int, when they class to the arcane subclass provides, even then, minimal benefits: The casting abilities favoured by these subclasses are generally the kind that do not rely on attack rolls or saving throws. EKs are fond of shield, for example, and of the martial cantrips (which, admittedly, we do not have in game yet, and it makes the EK struggle as something with two little magic pops, and otherwise a fighter with no perks), both of which do not need your intelligence to work or hit . Tricksters are fond of invisibility, distracting illusions, blinding or sleeping, or other things that debilitate foes and give them easy advantage or crits - all things that don't use your intelligence stat.

Even if you play an EK who is blazing force bolts and fury, for the kicks of it - well, you're going to need all the help you can get to stay contemporary with your allies and feel like you're contributing meaningfully, and getting a free boost to a +4 on your offence casting stat is nice, in the short term. Again - even for an EK; having a +4 in your ofence stat is good for level 1-4, acceptable for level 5-8, and a weakness beyond that... so if you neglected you int because of the circlet, but picked save and attack roll spells, then you've only done yourself a disservice in the long run. You will not be OP - you'll be weaker than your allies before long.

In this EA, where we're capped to level 4, it is at the point where it will feel the strongest, and it can provide a nice perk for specific builds, for now; it's all downhill from here. There is no problem with the circlet. It is not a balance concern in any way.

I can read all that but I still think this item is too powerfull right at the beginning of act 1.

According to me we shouldn't be able to build our lvl 1-4 characters arround such items and an EK should never be as (more) efficient with magic than a regular wizard that is going to invest its lvl 4 additionnal ability points in intelligence to reach 18.

But you're right, this single item is absolutely not a balance concern.

31, £30k, classical violinist,

A good game design (and balance) should encourage fun playstyles. Choices should have consequences. If I decide to mug someone, and get a major gain from it - that’s cool, but what is the consequence of that? If it was a table-top, I imagine that DM would follow this threat - is someone chasing you? Can you spend this money everywhere? If there is no downside, then it’s 1) boring, 2) it’s the optimal way to play. Why wouldn’t I mug that someone? Same with boosting your characters stats so they stop being distinct.

I don’t care, if you break your own game. Want free 10000 to buy all you want? Use a cheat code. Have unlimited skill points to distribute use a cheat code.

When I play a game I expect it to be well crafted and engaging. If I need to make house rules, ban choices the game gives me, because the game is poorly designed and balance - I will just spend my time with something better crafted. I really don’t have patience or time to play a game, figure out what’s broken, and balance it for myself. It’s designer’s job, not mine. Difficulty options are there to set... well, difficulty and cheat codes, or “Berath’s Blessings” from PoE2 are good ways of implementing those progress boosters some might want. Choices, within a game, however, be it class choice or action choice should be balanced within reason - have impact, absolutely, but not make the game unfairly hard, or break underlying mechanics.

I haven't read up on all magic items 5th ed... only really started a 5th ed campaign earlier this year...

But all the spells like bulls str/bears end... all gone as far as the players hand book... seems like they got rid of most, if not all the stat boosting/ability stacking etc... does that make a +10 item better or worse here?...

If the above is true and even a full casting wizard cant in any way get his int above 20(i thought at least ioun stones might still boost stats, might be wrong... definitely less options to do so though) i can see even some deciding to take that -1 DC to their spells for 20+ additional build points to make their castermuch more well rounded...

...and if WotC put it in there, shame on them imho... i doubt it though.

...and thx on the ogre-magi... always thought they looked genie-ish... never encountered one though.

Just as you say: you're not that familiar with 5e. I don't wish to be harsh, but it shows. I'm not saying you should just believe everything I say, but please do consider giving more credence to someone who is intimately familiar with the system and its design philosophy and style. 5e has a substantially different design philosophy driving it than some earlier editions, one major feature of which is their bounding of values and bonus into a narrower bracket, and the design of all other related aspects of the game flows on from this.

To answer your question: no, no wizard who intended to play through to high levels (and be effective there) would seriously consider tanking their Int and covering it with a low grade, attunement-requiring, score-setting item, tying up an equipment position as well as an attunement slot(!) permanently and losing out on save dc and attack bonus, just for the ability to put their stat spread somewhere else... not unless their goal was to deliberately play a gimped character (which they may well wish to, sure - weak or unfitting characters are fun!).

For your benefit, spells like bears endurance and cat's grace are not gone - they are a single spell, called "Enhance Ability" with Cat's grace, Eagle's Splendor, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom, Bull's Strength and Fox's Cunning being your choice of which one you want to cast now, so you only need to prepare that single spell, and can cast whichever of the buffs you want or need to.

No, Ioun stones cannot increase your Intelligence above 20. No, their base ability score bonus does not stack onto an item that sets your score. One way exists in terms of core DMG (and other official books) magic items to increase your Intelligence above 20 - it's a mid-to-late game item and can only realistically be used once.

The circlet is not a +10 item; calling it that is misguided and makes you sound either silly or intellectually dishonest in your speech.


As I already said, it's an uncommon magic item in the core DMG, is slightly stronger there than it is in this game, and it shows up on the lowest grade of treasure pulls, designed to be found by level 1-4 parties. It's a low grade magic item; it's not especially valuable. I'd thank you not to back-handedly call me a liar over something you could very easily fact-check yourself in a matter of seconds.

To Maximus,

You certainly can build your character around that if you want - you'd just need to accept that overall you're going to find yourself losing out to and being less effective than a character that didn't, by the time you're level 8. If you feel that giving your character a permanent crutch that doesn't even make them as good as contemporary characters by level 8 is overpowered, that's up to you... that's what you'd be doing though, and I promise you, it doesn't work out well, except in the extremely short term (such as the 1-4 limitation of this EA).

A character that has a nifty magic item having an edge over a character that does not have a nifty magic item is perfectly normal and acceptable as well... but that EK is not EVER going to be as efficient as a wizard, circlet or not. They have lower levels of spells, fewer spell slots by a mile, and know fewer spells. By the time your EK can cast magic missile twice a day, your wizard has second level spells and more of them per long rest. That circlet doesn't even begin to balance the scale, let alone make the EK more efficient or more effective. It gives them a nice buff at early levels; that's all it does, and that's why it is a low grade magic item designed for early levels in the DMG.

One "+" less than max is "tanking" the stat?... Who is being silly/intellectually dishonest? The "enhance ability" doesnt even give you a "+" to those stats like the spells of old, just some bonuses to checks/saves regarding those stats... in case you missed that and weren't being intellectually dishonest... again... ;D

I didnt check but will also assume that item that is "similar" to the +10 item(effectively just that if a player has a use for the stat and wants it to be... its not silly or anything else... just numbers... that also equate to 20+ build points like i said) doesnt provide near the benefit this one does but you didn't say what that item was... I think i know why...

I previously didnt insult you directly or otherwise... grow some thicker skin or probably get off the internets... ;D

Also, while i can admit i dont know it all, my knowledge of 5ed isnt as bad as you would like to believe, i just haven't had the chance to see a good deal of it in live action and at higher levels yet... i feel i can mostly stand by what i said... even the 2nd level stat boosting spells, as they in fact no longer provide actual pluses to the stats... another pretty in your face indicator this particular item is a Larian computer programmer type brainchild... not WotC imho...

One item... not a game breaker... just one little tid bit during a game that makes you wonder if the DM knows what they are doing... certainly a smaller issue than things like jump/disengage...

Peace... Llev...

5e did take away some of the greatest powers behind a high intelligence score, indeed. You no longer get more skill points from higher INT because they maimed skills with proficiencies and you don't get more spell slots from INT but rather just more spells to choose from.

Ugh, so many responses miss the points about personal bias and qualifications: (and yes, the OP must have known they would get flamed)

Not everyone is educated and unbiased enough to make good (good = net positive impact on the game in a way that can be measured) game design choices. Those same people are more likely to not realize that their choices aren't universal truths.

Newsflash, and I won't be shocked if this is controversial: Not every personal conclusion is equal to the rest. Some opinions are much more informed than others. Some opinions are more narrow minded than others. Some opinions are more influenced by personal preference and bias than others.

The world has come to a place where personal feelings and opinions are respected, but this attitude has bled over into science vs fiction. But facts and science still exist. Knowledge and reason should count more than feelings when it comes to real things, like game design. (Knowledge ABOUT Feelings is still important, as the product is a game and games work with feelings).

Unfortunately this is an internet forum and everyone gets to think their ideas are better than the rest and there is no vetting or review process to filter things out. Thus, you are just as likely to encounter a screwball idea as you are to see a well thought out and reasoned idea.

I once had an argument with a guy about plastic nanoparticles passing through skin cell walls and causing problems. I have a lot of scientific background, enough to understand molecules and the difference between eating with a plastic spoon and burning a plastic spoon while inhaling the vapors before they have time to decay. The other guy had a "feeling" that nanoparticles are fine because plastic is everywhere in our lives and we eat with plastic.

He DEMANDED that his POV be taken with full respect, and that he be allowed to advise other people about his opinion while stating it as a matter of fact.

There are significant arguments about expecting a player to choose to handicap themselves and make decisions that are not in their moment-to-moment interest VS forcing limits on the player.

There is a balance, but when people just say "you don't have to choose to use the easy option" they are not showing much understanding in human psychology with game design.

Go look at the Destiny controversy about weapon sunsetting: people want to use the same gun for 4 years and expect people to just "choose" to not use the best option which happens to be 4 years old and will forever impact game design and balance. The Dark Souls Easy Mode argument has already been made in this thread.

This would only ever matter in a multiplayer game where people compete agianst each other. So not BG3.
Furthermore, as we have already established, INT is a garbage stat. This circlet will only be potentially useful to EK and AT, and only in a limited fashion anyways.
Literally no other person will use it for anything else then maybe for a few skill checks. You can attempt any skill check anyways, so this would just result in fewer reloads statistically. Which is funny because the same guys who argue against this item also argue against savescumming, which this item would reduce.
Curious.
The combat benefits of this item are very limited for only 2 subclasses.
Peopel making a fuss about this are crybabies who need to grow up instead of trying to act like science said they are right so everyone else is wrong and should respect them. Lol , this is a video game, grow up.

I have a relative and this relative is highly educated and smart that did get robbed with identity theft thousands of euro. I do not have my age puplically anywhere including my CV! I often get asked by employers my age in recuiting process though and then I can answer but I do not put publically my age anywhere and if I need to use a "proxy" age I will do it lol. Well of course my goverment and tax office knows my age.

Now I do IT support and I am landlord. People often think it is no fuss being landlord quite the contrary now one of my apartments will need a new renter from 1st Mars 2021 forward and I do not like to meet people on COVID 19 time at all. By the way most of my work I do remotely from home we take COVID 19 seriously in my country.

Now before someone get wild ideas I am millionaire as teaser I will not tell my income, but I am not millionaire (1000 000 million euro as net wealth) and my net wealth is that I would be what I consider Upper Middle Class in net wealth (google Upper Middle Class net wealth).

Little social experiment and you are PRO for rob some noble? I rub it in then. I do not care a shit about leftist movement in real life and quite the opposite political party. Please keep in mind that my country is clearly less capitalistic then USA and I do feel pity for the really poor in USA. We really do not have homeless people in my country though some extreme drug addict might have it harsh.

Now about the game. I believe many players want fixed things like exploits or broken things. The Game is in Normal mode at Early Access. I am sure they will include an Easy difficulty level for you.

As for me no I do not need some Nightmare permadeath difficulty level, but perhaps I would try that. Game is in normal challenge level. I think I want to play at what is closest to Pen and Paper perhaps one difficulty level above Normal.

Well as from what standpoint we are coming from? Well some of use like me are real Pen and Paper roleplay players that have played Dungeons and Dragons (I have played Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons) or have played many computer games including Baldurs Gate 1 and 2.

What I look for is some kind of experience that is close to real Pen and Paper Dungeons Dragons experience. Well and some of us are perhaps GURU at Dungeons Dragons gaming and like challenge. What I look forward is one difficulty level above Normal that does not have permadeath.

To show you how concerned that I am about the Circlet that boosts your intelligence to 18 I''m level 4 and have not gone after it yet. After all, I don't know who in the party would benefit from it more

There's a unique balance for everyone and if you're forced into creating something that by definition will never fit every individual you'll acquiesce to that fact and try for a demographic which you can more easily define. That being said, pretty sure there are going to be multiple difficulties along with design decisions to cater to whatever audience they're targeting which most likely includes you to a good degree. The limitations are, of course, the 'spirit' of D&D which may or may not allow for more flexibility than desired.

Don’t like it - don’t use it ? Sell or send to the camp to be used at a level you feel is appropriate.
The more I play this game & read the forums the more you begin to see that self policing how you play the game for your personal experience is what It’s all about as Larian try to appeal to all players.
I also believe it’s still early days in ea so larian will continue to listen to feedback and change as they believe is in everyone’s best interest

This. Very much this.

In DOS2 the most powerful ability, more powerful than any magic, was pickpocket (thievery). It pretty much destroyed any notion of risk vs reward balance/fairness and incentivized an immoral type of exploitative gameplay that is the antithesis of the heroic persona the great majority of players want.

Moreover, this is part of a materialistic excessively loot-driven design philosophy I take objection to. When the items you possess become character defining, it diminishes other aspects that I value much more.

I understand what you are trying to prove here, in fact, from memory (I would have to go looking to actually find the relevant studies), you would be correct. If I am guessing correctly, your hypothesis is that younger people who make less money but have more time on their hands due to not having as many obligations (children, etc), care far more about balance than older people who have much more limited time to play. I won't indulge your fancy because I value my privacy to some extent, but I will say that for the purposes of your little experiment you should also require people to state the country they live in, because the US and the UK are not the only countries in the world and you need to adjust the income based on the cost of living depending on the country the person lives in. Someone living in Harare will have a lower cost of living than someone living in San Francisco.

I personally take somewhat of a middle road here, I feel that some degree of balance is important, but that an excessive focus on balance can lead to a lower quality product overall. A good example of why balance can be important is a thought experiment with a hypothetical game where 1 class deals on average 1 damage and another class deals on average 100 damage. Now, as a game designer you can either choose to balance combat around the class that does 1 damage or the class that does 100 damage, but without rebalancing the classes themselves, you cannot balance around both of them. If you design encounters around the 1 damage class, the 100 damage class will find them trivial to overcome. Conversely, if you balance around the 100 damage class, then the 1 damage class has to deal with impossible walls of difficulty.

Anyhow, I could write walls of text to support either side, but I think its better to just provide a link to someone who articulates well why balance is important in single player games, someone like Josh Sawyer. Incidentally, Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 (games he was responsible for) are examples of games where I feel like too much emphasis was placed on balance and it was to their overall detriment. I also place a much higher emphasis on verisimilitude than he does and I do believe that trash options have their place, but those are just personal digressions.

I'm not going to play along with the idea of age, job, and income, but I will note a few things

I agree that a few things are cheesy and could be better balanced, but for the most part I ignore them (and it's not like BG I and II weren't full of cheese and imbalance. I recall reading about veritable fountains of fondue being present in those games, ready for people to take advantage of plus the whole buff yourself to godlike levels then wade into battle that can't be done in BG III). For me balance has a specific idea behind it, that I will explain below (and quickly note that if one class only does one damage, while another does 100, game balance has been thrown out the window and trying to balance around that is ignoring the real problem).

My opinion is that, in a class based game, all the classes should have an equally difficult, equally rewarding experience, or at least as close as reasonably possible, without making them play too similarly (I'll focus on single characters for the moment, as that's much easier to come up with solutions for). Let's take three hypothetical players, playing three different classes. Finn the fighter, Mark the mage, and Theo the thief and see how we can balance those three playstyles in a turn based encounter with ten initially unaware enemies (well, balanced to my mind)

Finn has the advantage of being a durable SOB, but has to avoid be overwhelmed. He goes in with a charge, and takes out a foe. Now he has nine angry foes attacking him at various ranges, and needs to figure out how to take them down. Obviously he needs to prioritize the most dangerous foes, and the squishiest. He has several abilities that allow him to close the gap and avoid getting surrounded, but they're semi-situational (IE need to be used at the right time) and can only be used once apiece. Obviously, closer ranged and tougher enemies would do their damnedest to prevent that so he would need to figure out a way around them, and there should be several way to do so (knock them back, find a way to go over or through them, stun them, etc.) but with downsides to make their use a bit more risky and encouraging smart planning, lest he get overwhelmed and unable to kill the real threats. Once they're down he could take on the lesser threats, though with some care needed not to be overwhelmed.

Now Mark would operate differently. He's squishy as heck, but with several powerful spells to turn the tables. He could start by casting a fireball in the room, eliminating one or two and weakening at least some of the rest, but now he has several angry foes out for his guts and he needs to keep them from outright killing him. Remember, he can't wade into the heart of the foe like Finn can. He needs to stay away from them. One option is to kite the melee fighters while taking out the real risk that are the ranged fighters, but it would need to be handled carefully, lest he get himself cornered, which would result in a quick death. Once the ranged fighters, who he couldn't kite as effectively are gone, he could focus on the melee fighters while keeping up the kiting, though still with the risk of making one mistake and finding himself cornered and slaughtered. He could have a few abilities to help deal with the changing situation, but again, they would likely be single-use and have to be used at the right time.

Finally, Theo, whose durability is between Finn and Mark's. He plays rather differently to the other two. His best bet is to pick off individual enemies quietly and without the rest noticing. Of course, if they can notice the corpses (let's say they can), Theo might find himself in a world of trouble if they start investigating. If they do find him, he is indeed in trouble, though not necessarily as much as Mark. He can fight back and survive even if foes get in his face, but only for so long before they slaughter his ass. His best bet is to get back into stealth and get back to picking off the enemies one at a time, though now at a disadvantage, as they're now aware that he's around. He would have a few ways of doing this, though they would rely on breaking line of sight to pull off, which could be challenging now that the enemy knows there's someone here picking them off one by one.

In a well balanced encounter, they would be able to strategize, find a way to take out the biggest threats, and all in all keep themselves alive, no matter if it was Finn, Mark, or Theo. And there would be multiple ways to go about it, some more challenging and dangerous than others, perhaps, but still viable and rewarding. In a poorly balanced encounter, one of the three would be able to walk over the enemy without issue (say Mark's fireball killing everyone) while another would be flat out struggling to get anything done without a very precise strategy and perhaps even luck (Finn, for example, needing to attack foes and use abilities in a specific order and have the random number god smiling on him to succeed).

What it ultimately boils down to is that, unless they're specifically marked as such and designed as such, I don't want specific classes being far easier to play the game with and other far harder to. I want my own stealth and backstab-heavy playstyle (The Theo style described above) to be just as viable and rewarding as a straight-up fighter's in-your-face, engage the enemy directly style and a mage's magic heavy, keep your distance, burn them to the ground style, and both of those styles as viable as each other. I hate the idea of "oh your favorite class sucks, and when you pick it here the game is going to be ridiculously hard for you, whereas if you picked this class that you may not like at all, it would be a walk in the park." That is a sign of bad game design.