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#748732 02/01/21 05:43 PM
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As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

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Won't happen, but what should be reworked is his entire backstory as vampire.
Vampires and Vampire Spawns have several monsterous abilities like claws, resistance to weapons, etc. which make them not suitable as a equal level player character. And Larians solution to this has been very lazy and simply ignore all of it, breaking D&D lore, and say "the tadpole did it" which is just lame.

Last edited by Ixal; 02/01/21 05:54 PM.
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This is nonsense and background is completely separate from class, you can have any class/background combination in 5e. A aristocrat rogue works fine.

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It says most of them and not all of them so Astarion is fine as is a rogue player character with an aristocratic background.

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You are ridicolously reaching smile
Astarion used to sell criminals to a clan of vampires for profits, which is a criminal activity.
Maybe you should rework your ability to be well-informed.

That being said he would make more sense to me as bard then a rogue, but not due to the reasons you mention, those are all non-sense.
The really big problem with Astarion is that he supposedly doesn't have a soul because he can't see his own image in mirrors, however he totally does act like he has a soul.

By and large I'm very happy with Astarion and he is my favorite companion so far.

Last edited by Bruh; 02/01/21 06:02 PM.
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I beg to kindly differ Vero - your opposition is strictly based on the fact that the PHB guiding backstory doesn't mention "criminal". I believe, (and still learning) that when it comes to role play in this game, it's all about imagination .. as long as the DM (larian) allows it.

Can't help it:
Player: "That was never part of our fifth edition."
DM: "I am altering the fifth edition, pray that I do not alter it any further."

Perhaps Astarion "the aristocratic", was so scared of his masters that he ended up developing extra skills that he was able to perfect over the last 100 years of his vampiric life.

-S

Last edited by Starlights; 02/01/21 06:11 PM.

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Originally Posted by Veilburner
It says most of them and not all of them so Astarion is fine as is a rogue player character with an aristocratic background.

They do things that level 1 rogues cannot do - so these are retired thieves and cutthroats, not people who haven't been thieves at all.

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You don't need to be a criminal to be a rogue. Rogues can be anything from a swashbuckler to a scout in the military

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This feels like a not so subtle attack on 5e or something. It's interesting that you didn't quote the rest of the 5e statement on rogues

"A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators...As adventurers, rogues fall on both sides of the law. some are hardened criminals..Some have learned and perfect their skills with the explicit purpose of infiltrating ancient ruins and hidden crypts in search of treasure."

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One of things I like about 5th is that it brought back this first edition feels. There are lots of places in the 5th ed rule books that say story > rules. If the story is good and the DM approves it works -- especially with character background. Archetypes should be flexible. Astarian's master made him a seducer / scavenger: after Astarian brought Cazador the beautiful people to feast on Astarian had to go back to their dwellings and pilfer their jewels . . .

He's had 200 years, plenty of time to pick up some new skills.

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Being a noble rogue is totally fine.

The problem is being a lv1 vampire rogue. So the tadpole make him lose his sunlight sensitivity, but he also loses his regeneration, resistances and the ability to climb on walls.

In PST and MotB we had very unusual companions and the game cared more about the story than balance. So we got a floating skull, a living armor, a soul construct or a bear God, to name a few.

If they do not want to give him vampire powers plus rogue powers, then the alternative is to make him a (not undead) slave of a vampire. So a vampire lord has forced a noble elf rogue to work for him for 200 years and the tadpole only removed the mental control of the vampire over him.


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I never took the classes too literally, more as skillsets with a suggest background. But I also come from skill based RPGs and not classes/level and to me those are horribly constraining and not overly worth to bother once the game starts. Story over class descriptions any day.

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Astarion has not been an noble for 200 years, all this time, he's been looking for victims for himself and his master, so I'm sure it works for him.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Astarion has not been an noble for 200 years, all this time, he's been looking for victims for himself and his master, so I'm sure it works for him.

According to him, he was a puppet, not a skilled rogue in training - nothing he did was decided by himself for 200 years.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

Edit* to add to that or give more of a example:


Last edited by fallenj; 02/01/21 07:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by fallenj
Edit* to add to that or give more of a example:


Can we just replace Astarion with Inigo Montoya

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Originally Posted by fallenj
Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories.

Originally Posted by A Clown
Can we just replace Astarion with Inigo Montoya

Only if we get to make a reply: "I don't even know who the fuck your father is. Who is this man that I supposedly killed?!"

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Originally Posted by fallenj
Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories.

Originally Posted by A Clown
Can we just replace Astarion with Inigo Montoya

Only if we get to make a reply: "I don't even know who the fuck your father is. Who is this man that I supposedly killed?!"

The only thing that comes to mind is the duelist feature you can pickup instead of a feat. This gives you additional ac when wielding only one, one-hand weapon...eeeh this is off the top of my head, I could be wrong in some way.

Last edited by fallenj; 02/01/21 07:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

As someone already pointed out, he does have a criminal background, and the guy literally disaproves when you defend children against adults who would abuse them. I understand you like the character, but don't try to apologize for him or revize what he is, he might be charismatic. Doesn't change the fact he's an ass.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Originally Posted by fallenj
Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories.

There is in Xanathar's Guide to Everything http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/rogue:swashbuckler

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