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Currently, after completing the Act 1 on both sides, one thing felt particulary lacking. The lack of creative interactions with cerain npcs who are important for quests, just beyond slaughtering them; also the possiblity of solving the quests in other ways. Especially since we have the knockout mechanic, we have the npc resurrecting mechanic, we have the prisoner cage at our camp, so why not use those for improving the gameplay and roleplay options?

1) Minthara leads her attack on the grove and we side with tieflings. As for now, game forces the "murderhobo solution" during the ensuring fight...
a) During the battle, we target the drow and she is brought to low health. Judging by her character she should start to flee, which should cause a debuff to all remaining attackers. After the battle we are given the choice of pursing her, resulting in us capturing the drow lady as a prisoner/letting her run/chasing her and finishing her off.
b) We wipe the attackers out and Minthara is the only one alive -> she starts to flee, if no enemies are close, with same options as above
c) During the fight, we knock her out -> when fight ends, we hold Minthara as a prisoner in our camp (as for now, in game journal only updates the quest properly if she is dead and knocking her out makes tieflings finish her off)
d) FIght is ending, with Minthara having enemies close to her and she is brought to low health. She is asking for mercy and surrenders to us.
e) She dies, but we use resurrection scroll on her -> ends up being captured (can't be done currently on enemy characters)
f) Very important IMO, killing enough of the invaders should cause the rest to flee, with their leader calling them cowards and either b) or d) happening.
g) Minthara dies and fight becomes easier, since the bad guys have no leader now

Her current behaviour not only completely defies her character (she considers her life to be valuable and she is pretty cowardly, with her willing to fight only if she can easily win) but also it doesn't make sense for attackers to fight as efficiently if their leader is dead/fleeing/unconscious. It was even said by Minthara that they need a strong hand to lead them, or else they will disperse.

Now, as for what interactions should be when we capture her:
- Interrogating for information, about Moonrise towers, Absolute, her role, who is she, her past, etc.
During the dialogues we should be able to treath her nicely, neutrally or badly, with each type of treatment affecting how she respond to us (like if we treat her well, she willingly reveals to us the information about Moonrise towers + Absolute and offers to join us)
- Trying to convince her to join us (after all, she doesn't want to get punished for failing by her superiors, she needs protection from her previous "allies", only possible with good treatment, logical beginning for redemption arc, which given her character is something that is pretty possible, with later option for romance if player wishes so)
- Finish her off
- Letting her go, possibly meeting her somewhere again


2) If we choose to side with "bad guys", if fight happens between us and Minthara after the celebration party, again, it doesn't make any sense for her to fight until the last breath, neither it makes sense for knockout to not work (currently it puts her to 1 hp, renders her unconscious, but as soon as we end the day again she is willing to fight again with 1 hp, what the hell?). As an example, after we knock her out, simliar interactions could be possible as above, with addition of (if player wishes to do so) spending the rest of night bandaging her, etc to improve the relation.


3) Now, interactions with tieflings
a) If we ask Zevlor to move the tieflings out of the grove, he attacks us. After this happens (and he dies/surrenders/is knocked out), we should have the possibility of our party convincing tieflings to leave, with only druids remaining in the grove.
b) With hard persuasion check, it should be possible that we can convince Minthara to only focus on druids, with her forces still looting the camp, but letting the tielfings go to spread the word about the Absolute or just by telling her that they might be useful later in future
c) We let tieflings hide or escape during/before the siege through the tunnels
d) Make it possible for us to somehow undermine Zevlor's authority among tieflings, so that they do not listen to him anymore, supporting the option a)
e) Attack the druids together with tieflings, with some of the druids siding with us (since they aren't happy about how Kagha rules the Grove)
f) After we return from Minthara, we can tell tiefling defenders what did she order us to do, with our allies putting the traps inside, close to the gate, making barricades there, etc. Basically during siege, we open the gate, attackers rush inside, gate gets closed, which creates a trap for them
g) We agree to trick Minthara into attacking from tunnels, where she gets trapped and captured/killed during the fight


4) And time for Halsin, our favourite druid.
- When he does attack us in the camp, when we do side with "evil" drow lady, he gets bugged like her, if we knock him out (1 hp -_- and still wants to fight). There should be an option to hold him as a prisoner and in general act towards him in simliar ways to described above, although due to his character being different than Minthara, he should behave differenly, that is harder to persuade, etc.
An example of persuasion could be, that we sided with "bad guys" because:
a) We failed to find the Halsin
b) Druids didn't act too nicely towards us (looking at you, Kagha and Nettie)
c) We regret helping the goblins
d) This should be only possible if the tieflings don't die
e) We return the idol of Silvanus to him, which we found after defeating the druids
f) We show him the proof that Kagha worked with
Shadow druids, so we thought that most of druids are evil then

- During our infiltration of the goblin camp, his death causes journal to update. Homever we can resurrect him, sadly game still thinks that he is dead, when it comes to quests and other characters. Same bug applies to Zevlor as well.

5) Goblin camp inflitration, attack and overall interaction, including siding with evil side:
a) Capturing Minthara, the Dror Ragzlin or Priestess Gut
b) Possibility of causing an interal war between the leaders, supporting one of them
c) Ability to become the leader of goblins yourself (after killing/capturing/"convincing" the rest)
e) Destroying the bridge leading outside, delaying the attack enough for tieflings to move out, for example by asking our ogre mercs to do it, or by using black powder barrel
f) Tricking the drow warlord into attacking false spot, again giving tieflings time to prepare
g) Causing an internal war in Druid Grove, like described above (Tieflings vs Druids), to weaken the grove
h) Tell defenders fake information about how the goblins will attack, to make defense harder and make it impossible for them to prepare.
i) Arrange the transport of "oil barrels" , with actually goblins hiding inside the barrels and helping us during the siege, when given the signal.
j) Make it possible for us to send some of attackers through tunnel to grove, if we discover it first.
k) Destroy/poison the food supplies of either Grove or Goblin Camp, forcing an early attack with weakened enemies or making defenders weaker, possibly even forcing them to move.
l) Be able to gather additional allies for attack or defense (like flaming fist/mercenaries) or for example improve the weapons on your troops, by engaging in attack on merchant wagons travelling nearby.

6) Fight when we first arrive at druid grove
- possibility of joining the goblins, who while get repelled during the attack, lead us back to goblin camp and we get treated there well, instead of the usual mocking.
- not taking either side

Currently many players do not do evil path, because there aren't enough interactions, compared to the good side, but also because of how badly goblins treat us unless we are drows. Solution above would fix the problem completely. Also, we should be given better explaination why we join the goblins, like for possiblity of controlling tadpole or learning how it works so that we can remove it later. (Since if their top leaders probably know how to create those tadpoles, they also know how to remove them)

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I was affraid that this will be just another "evil bad" topic ...
But you have some great ideas ... personaly i would dare to presume that some of them are allready planed, since if you choose Bounty Hunter specialisation for your Ranger, there is specificly told that enemies restrained by this character will have it harder to escape ... yet there is no restraining option in game so far.

But there is a few things i like to coment, if you dont mind.
(Actualy i will coment them even if you do, but i would like to talk about it. :P )

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
d) FIght is ending, with Minthara having enemies close to her and she is brought to low health. She is asking for mercy and surrenders to us.
I cant imagine Minthara beging for mercy ...
If you think about it, she is Drow, Lolthsworn Drow, that was probably growing in Menzoberranzan ... that, and all the threatments prisoners get in goblin camp ... should be motivation enough to rather commit suicide, than risk falling into captivity. :-/ So more than that i can imagine her swalowing some poison.

Ofcourse we should be able to ressurect her and capture her anyway, it would be hilarious as hell. laugh

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
g) Minthara dies and fight becomes easier, since the bad guys have no leader now
Goblins certainy should start runing, or surendering at this point ...
Maybe im wrong here, but they seem to me like fear of Minthara was the only thing that was driving them on. :-/

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
During the dialogues we should be able to treath her nicely, neutrally or badly, with each type of treatment affecting how she respond to us (like if we treat her well, she willingly reveals to us the information about Moonrise towers + Absolute and offers to join us)
I dont like this to be honest.
Yes we should completely be able to treath her nicely i agree ... but she should not willigly reveal us the informations, nor offer to join us, just bcs we are nice to her. :-/ That seem out of character.
If anything, we should be able to torture our answers out of her, and even in that case she should not give them easily.

But i just cant shake the feeling that Minthara is that type that will mock you for being soft, weak, patetic, and despicable if you treath her nicely.
I can imagine that this could work, but it would require a much longer work on her ... like treath her nicely since capturing, through moonrise towers where we show her what she actualy signed to, shaken her believes, and then help her deal with that ... and even that seem a little too fast for us to gain her thrust, after all we just broke her whole world. laugh
But concidering it as long therm, it could work.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
- Trying to convince her to join us (after all, she doesn't want to get punished for failing by her superiors, she needs protection from her previous "allies", only possible with good treatment, logical beginning for redemption arc, which given her character is something that is pretty possible, with later option for romance if player wishes so)
Same comentary as abowe ... yes, i can see this as possibility, and even fiting the character ... just not so fast.
After all, even David Hasselhoff wasnt able to save everyone. wink

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
a) If we ask Zevlor to move the tieflings out of the grove, he attacks us. After this happens (and he dies/surrenders/is knocked out), we should have the possibility of our party convincing tieflings to leave, with only druids remaining in the grove.
And here is the problem ... to leave where exactly?
I could imagine convincing them (with extremely hard persuation check) to repair boat and try their luck on water ... but that seem like the only option. :-/
The willage just across the first bridge is swarming with goblins and if you go the other way, you just reach the beach and its over. Also Tieflings are draging all their property with them, wagons with food, clothing and stuff ... not to mention civilians and childern. There is litteraly no way they could sneak around that goblin village.
Also note that bridge that is conecting Blighted Village to northern part of map is broken, so they even cant cross it with all their posessions.

The only another way i could imagine is persuating leader of Flaming Fist to provide them escort, once you help them save that elf from burning house.
I imagine that would also require some persuation check, since they have allready urgent business to do ... but its only fair to ask for favor, after you save her life.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
b) With hard persuasion check, it should be possible that we can convince Minthara to only focus on druids, with her forces still looting the camp, but letting the tielfings go to spread the word about the Absolute or just by telling her that they might be useful later in future
Im not quite sure if that is even possible.
All we get so far is that goblins are searching some "weapon" in the groove ... no idea who, or what it should be.

But i presumed that Minthara was hunting for Tieflings at first, and finding druids is simply sideffect of her hunt.
So if that is the case, i cant imagine any way that she would let go her prey ...

On the other hand, in some other topics at this theme, i allready mentioned that i would like to see "some" Tieflings not being killed during attack.
Personaly i would like to see groove wiped out, and every armed Tiefling dead ... then civilians with kids being driven into a corner ... either in prison, or "dragon cave", or in Zevlor's cave, w/e it dont matter so much in the end ... and then Minthara let us decide their faith:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark ... with conciderable cut for us, ofcourse.
- Sacrifice them for the absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers ...
- Give them to goblins, to kill/torture/eat.
- Execute them all at once personaly.
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
c) We let tieflings hide or escape during/before the siege through the tunnels
Simmilar problem as abowe (in persuating them to leave), they dont have anywhere to go as long as roads are swarming with goblins.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
An example of persuasion could be, that we sided with "bad guys" because:
...
d) This should be only possible if the tieflings don't die
I dont see any conection between Halsin and Tieflings ...
So why this condition? O_o

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
b) Possibility of causing an interal war between the leaders, supporting one of them
This seem odd ...
Im not saing impossible, but certainly odd ... they all have their own parts of goblin army to comand, and they dont influence others at all ... their minds are even conected when close to each other. :-/
I cant see any way to make this work, that dont seem odd.

But there certainy should be more options of interacting with goblin leaders ...
Personaly i find quite anoying that you arent able to convince any other leader to join your attack on the Groove, at least with Ragzlin it should be quite easy.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
c) Ability to become the leader of goblins yourself (after killing/capturing/"convincing" the rest)
I litteraly dont like this idea.
I agree it may sound awesome, but also cant shake the feeling that if would bring more problems than benefits.

How would you like to continue any story as goblin leader? :-/

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
f) Tricking the drow warlord into attacking false spot, again giving tieflings time to prepare
This again, would cause more harm than good ... if you study your map carefully, you find out that in this zone is actualy just a few places ...
And concidering that goblins allready raided most of it, the only place where you still can send them is possibly Githyanki chreche, Toll house, Hag's swamp, and Druid groove ... whole rest of the map they allready control.
(Its kinda funny that Minthara is unable to pinpoint goove location just concidering this, there isnt so much other options. But i gues that antagonist just need to be kinda stupid. :D)

In last patch there was added deception check roll to tell minthara false spot of druid groove location, and if you sucess she only tells you that you fall for prisoners lies, since they allready raided that place.
And personaly i find it perfectly fiting whole story.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
g) Causing an internal war in Druid Grove, like described above (Tieflings vs Druids), to weaken the grove
You allready can, there is even several options for that.
- when you decide to side with Zevlor, and kill Kagha you need to kill all druids, wich makes sence since even if not all druids agree with Kaghas methods and leadership ... they probably wont just look aside when some strainger attact one of them. laugh
- when you decide to side with Kagha, and fore Zevlor out (wich leads to killing him), after next long rest druids simply finish their ritual and seal the groove (and yes that means killing every single Tiefling).
- you can also find proof that Kagha is betraying druids, and confront her ... wich can also leads to two outcomes, where on one hand is Kagha and shadow druids dead ... and on the other one only shadow druids dead and Kagha sory for all her misstakes canceling the ritual and providing tieflings all the help they may need.

This options seem quite suficient to me, what would you like to add? O_o

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
h) Tell defenders fake information about how the goblins will attack, to make defense harder and make it impossible for them to prepare.
Well, that would require complete rework of how it works now.
And i quite like that Tieflings are preparing to attack in your absence, it makes them more alive then when would they just sit on their asses hoping that their hero will deal with everything alone.
I would not change this, since curent situation is fine. :P

But you certainly should be able to tell Minthara about secret passage, to prepare another ambush.
It would be even better if you can convince Minthara to send army to gate, where they are suppose to distract and occupy defenders ... and join you and your group within the secret passage ... and from there you either could amsbush defenders from inside, or prepare there another ambush to capture Minthara as they say "with her pants down".
And to make it absolutely brilliant, in finish you should be able to show her restrained and captured to goblins so they surender (or run).

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
i) Arrange the transport of "oil barrels" , with actually goblins hiding inside the barrels and helping us during the siege, when given the signal.
Since using secret passage will have same result, and since you are no "suply manager" of the groove, but simply traveler, who just happened to arive there ...
I cant quite imagine how exactly you like to justify such action. O_o

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
k) Destroy/poison the food supplies of either Grove or Goblin Camp, forcing an early attack with weakened enemies or making defenders weaker, possibly even forcing them to move.
There certainly is a way to poison beer in goblin camp ...
Personaly i find it quite sad that only thing you can use it actual poison ... personaly i wanted to use sleep potion with mine pacificst gameplay. frown

Also im not quite sure what food suply you have in druid groove.
The only thing i can think about is that boiling pot, where that old tiefling is boiling some unspecific brown possibly meaty goo. laugh
But yeah, why not ...

I would also like to add posibility to add there some benefitial potion to on the contrary make attackers / defenders stronger. :P

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
l) Be able to gather additional allies for attack or defense (like flaming fist/mercenaries) or for example improve the weapons on your troops, by engaging in attack on merchant wagons travelling nearby.
Whole Flaming Fist group is retrurning to Baldur's Gate "as fast as possible" once you help them with their problem ...
Maybe if there would be some absurdly hard persuation ... but even after it sounds a bit odd. :-/

I would stick with them agreeing to escort tieflings, if they manage to join them imediatly, since that way they at least have common goal (reach Baldur's Gate as soon as possible).

Not sure what wagons you are talking about ...

I can imagine trying to convince those so called paladins of Tyr to help defend tieflings ... not quite sure how that would work, concidering they are just hunting one of them. laugh

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
6) Fight when we first arrive at druid grove
- possibility of joining the goblins, who while get repelled during the attack, lead us back to goblin camp and we get treated there well, instead of the usual mocking.
+1
This is certainly needed ...
Since right now, even if you manage to kill all defenders (Zevlor and Wyll included), they welcome you as their saviour. :-/

But lets be honest, it would require a lot of work ...
On the other hand, it could also quite improve game experience for Drows if there will be some story even for those who are not allowed to enter groove.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
- not taking either side
Well ... i presume you should be able to stay hidden during whole fight and not parcipiate in it at all ... yet since i allready tryed to kill defenders and i was still welcomed inside, i presume you would still be welcomed inside as "precious helper in such hard situation" right now. -_-
So definietly +1

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
how badly goblins treat us unless we are drows.
That is something that should be kept as it is ... since that have its reason and its a good one. :P

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
we should be given better explaination why we join the goblins, like for possiblity of controlling tadpole or learning how it works so that we can remove it later.
As i allready said countless times in countless topics ...
Those things are present, they just arent specificly "told" ... wich i personaly find even better, since those are options for perceptive characters (or maybe players).

The only way i could find this to be implemented so it fits to curent situation that i honestly love ... its simple introspective comentary from narator ...
Something like when you talk to last of Goblin leaders, you sucess percetion check and narator tells you something like: "Sudently you realize that she have the same tadpole as you do, they all do. That means that they must know some way to avoid transformation ... is their Goddess powers protecting them prehaps?"
It still seem stupid, but much better that way, than if some character tells you the same. -_-

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 03/01/21 01:44 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
if you choose Bounty Hunter specialisation for your Ranger, there is specificly told that enemies restrained by this character will have it harder to escape ... yet there is no restraining option in game so far.

Off topic, but somebody should check if this refers to the DC for the entangling shot or whatever the spell is called and compare a Bounty Hunter Ranger to any of the other ones or something.

Not me though. I'm lazy.


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Quote
cant imagine Minthara beging for mercy ...
If you think about it, she is Drow, Lolthsworn Drow, that was probably growing in Menzoberranzan ... that, and all the threatments prisoners get in goblin camp ... should be motivation enough to rather commit suicide, than risk falling into captivity. :-/ So more than that i can imagine her swalowing some poison.

Ofcourse we should be able to ressurect her and capture her anyway, it would be hilarious as hell. laugh

In lore as far as I know, drows can and do end up getting captured. I feel like I have used the wrong word to describe it; it should look somewheat like this:
Her henchmen are dead/fleeing and she is at low health, (let's say below 35% of maximum), with enemies surrounding her. A cutscene triggers, during which she falls on her knees, visibly wounded and exhausted. You are given an option to approach her, with several options possible:
a)Finish her off
b)Give her to tieflings
c)Take her as your prisoner
Here we should be able to choose, what to tell her, for example when roleplaying lawful good -> "There will be no harm done towards you from our side", lawful evil - "Show that you are useful and you might still live"
So I just meant that she surrenders due to her inability to fight or do anything basically, not straight begging for mercy.
Minthara is shown to both value her life very highly and to be cowardly, so there is a reason why she would surrender.
As for resurrecting, certainly that should be a + in relation if player is willing to try to redeem her. If we end up killing her, I know that in Forgotten Realms characters have to agree to resurrection; so this could be tricked by forcing someone else, like a goblin mage/priest/warlock to read the scroll. After which a big suprise moment happens for Minthara.

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Goblins certainy should start runing, or surendering at this point ...
Maybe im wrong here, but they seem to me like fear of Minthara was the only thing that was driving them on. :-/
If you get along with her well, by choosing her side, she does say that they need a "strong hand", or else they will disperse, so you are right indeed.

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I dont like this to be honest.
Yes we should completely be able to treath her nicely i agree ... but she should not willigly reveal us the informations, nor offer to join us, just bcs we are nice to her. :-/ That seem out of character.
If anything, we should be able to torture our answers out of her, and even in that case she should not give them easily.

But i just cant shake the feeling that Minthara is that type that will mock you for being soft, weak, patetic, and despicable if you treath her nicely.
I can imagine that this could work, but it would require a much longer work on her ... like treath her nicely since capturing, through moonrise towers where we show her what she actualy signed to, shaken her believes, and then help her deal with that ... and even that seem a little too fast for us to gain her thrust, after all we just broke her whole world. laugh
But concidering it as long therm, it could work.

I based this on indication, that she is not exactly 100% loyal to the Absolute, which is given during dialogue with her in a Camp. Since Minthara can't really return back and she has enemies everywhere now, the drow might decide to do anything to improve her dire situation. It could be done in a different way, like she reveals to you only basic and unimportant information, since there is little trust towards but it improves as time goes, if you continue to act well towards her.
Just like the rest of Absolute leaders, she doesn't show an awarness of being infected by the Tadpole too, so your point with Moonrise towers is great and could give her a good reason to reconsider what is she doing and let her for example join us as a companion in act 2.

Yes, mocking our character definitely fits her, although it's shouldn't be to the point of it being ridiculous since she is not stupid and her situation isn't exactly the best. And if you continue to treat her humanely for long enough (by for example giving her normal food and drink instead of just bread and water, letting her sleep on bedroll instead of sleeping on the ground, letting her keep the equipment (except the weapon and shield obviously, bandaging her after the fight, bringing her a health potion), she should behave better.

First time, when you ask her when she is your prisoner, how is she feeling? You get a insulting response in a style of "go away and see if you aren't somewhere close to that rock nearby"
But when enough time passes and you don't stop treating her well, she will respond first neutrally, then nicely. At one point she will say, that if you let her join your squad, she will be a much more useful than just sitting here in the prisoner cage doing nothing.


Quote
Same comentary as abowe ... yes, i can see this as possibility, and even fiting the character ... just not so fast.
After all, even David Hasselhoff wasnt able to save everyone. wink
It is shown if you side with her, that she is definitely someone with a huge logical possibility of redemption arc, with it starting to get going after we reach Moonrise Towers in act 1 and with act 2 letting us recruit her as a companion.

Quote
And here is the problem ... to leave where exactly?
I could imagine convincing them (with extremely hard persuation check) to repair boat and try their luck on water ... but that seem like the only option. :-/
The willage just across the first bridge is swarming with goblins and if you go the other way, you just reach the beach and its over. Also Tieflings are draging all their property with them, wagons with food, clothing and stuff ... not to mention civilians and childern. There is litteraly no way they could sneak around that goblin village.
Also note that bridge that is conecting Blighted Village to northern part of map is broken, so they even cant cross it with all their posessions.

The only another way i could imagine is persuating leader of Flaming Fist to provide them escort, once you help them save that elf from burning house.
I imagine that would also require some persuation check, since they have allready urgent business to do ... but its only fair to ask for favor, after you save her life.

Good point, I agree.


Quote
Im not quite sure if that is even possible.
All we get so far is that goblins are searching some "weapon" in the groove ... no idea who, or what it should be.

But i presumed that Minthara was hunting for Tieflings at first, and finding druids is simply sideffect of her hunt.
So if that is the case, i cant imagine any way that she would let go her prey ...

On the other hand, in some other topics at this theme, i allready mentioned that i would like to see "some" Tieflings not being killed during attack.
Personaly i would like to see groove wiped out, and every armed Tiefling dead ... then civilians with kids being driven into a corner ... either in prison, or "dragon cave", or in Zevlor's cave, w/e it dont matter so much in the end ... and then Minthara let us decide their faith:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark ... with conciderable cut for us, ofcourse.
- Sacrifice them for the absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers ...
- Give them to goblins, to kill/torture/eat.
- Execute them all at once personaly.
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.


Plenty of good interactions for roleplaying evil characters written by you; I based my thoughts before on the fact that Minthara says that she wants to get rid of worshippers of false god, and the druid grove is sanctuary of Silvanus.


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I dont see any conection between Halsin and Tieflings ...
So why this condition? O_o
Because he seems to be a good person caring for the rest and unlike Kagha he does show a soft side for Tieflings by letting them stay in the Grove.


Quote
But you certainly should be able to tell Minthara about secret passage, to prepare another ambush.
It would be even better if you can convince Minthara to send army to gate, where they are suppose to distract and occupy defenders ... and join you and your group within the secret passage ... and from there you either could amsbush defenders from inside, or prepare there another ambush to capture Minthara as they say "with her pants down".
And to make it absolutely brilliant, in finish you should be able to show her restrained and captured to goblins so they surender (or run).

A good dialogue could result with her getting captured there, with our hero either threatening her to cooperate with us, or simply saying that if she is going to willingly cooperate, she won't be harmed.
Either way, fully agreed.


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Since using secret passage will have same result, and since you are no "suply manager" of the groove, but simply traveler, who just happened to arive there ...
I cant quite imagine how exactly you like to justify such action. O_o
Zevlor mentions using oil barrels as a part of defense plan and tieflings trust you in 100% when you side with them during the first attack on grove.


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As i allready said countless times in countless topics ...
Those things are present, they just arent specificly "told" ... wich i personaly find even better, since those are options for perceptive characters (or maybe players).

The only way i could find this to be implemented so it fits to curent situation that i honestly love ... its simple introspective comentary from narator ...
Something like when you talk to last of Goblin leaders, you sucess percetion check and narator tells you something like: "Sudently you realize that she have the same tadpole as you do, they all do. That means that they must know some way to avoid transformation ... is their Goddess powers protecting them prehaps?"
It still seem stupid, but much better that way, than if some character tells you the same. -_-

I remember seeing survey on reddit, with players being asked what could make them play the evil side. Suprisingly.... it was "better story reason"
The fact that me or you could see that there is a reason of siding with goblins, doesn't mean that the rest of players will see it. That's why I would like it to be better explained, it doesn't have to be said by any of the bad guys. Your way of narrator doing it is perfectly fine.

IMO both Halsin and Minthara are well written characters and just forcing us to kill them if we choose the opposite side is pretty lame.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
if you choose Bounty Hunter specialisation for your Ranger, there is specificly told that enemies restrained by this character will have it harder to escape ... yet there is no restraining option in game so far.

Off topic, but somebody should check if this refers to the DC for the entangling shot or whatever the spell is called and compare a Bounty Hunter Ranger to any of the other ones or something.

Not me though. I'm lazy.
I have checked it, there no difference so far for any kind of ranger spells or abilities, all attack chances are the same, damage is unchanged as well. There isn't even increased duration for pinned down, so I think, that it's unimplemented mechanic related to a new ability or a throwable weapon, like a net. I'm not sure if gameplay value would be improved if this would in any way interact let's say with taking prisoners, because a single failed dice roll could block us from a variety of interesting actions.

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Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
In lore as far as I know, drows can and do end up getting captured.
Yup ... and they strugle to their last breath, since they know better than anyone what is happening to prisoners, or slaves.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I feel like I have used the wrong word to describe it; it should look somewheat like this:
Her henchmen are dead/fleeing and she is at low health, (let's say below 35% of maximum), with enemies surrounding her. A cutscene triggers, during which she falls on her knees, visibly wounded and exhausted. You are given an option to approach her, with several options possible:
a)Finish her off
b)Give her to tieflings
c)Take her as your prisoner
I see no need for this cutscene ... we either finish her off in regular combat, or knock her out ...
And if we knock her out, then Zevlor (and possibly Halsin) asks us after battle, what will we do with her ... then we can decide to either give her to tieflings, or druids, or keep her for oureself.

I simply dont like the idea her showing us her weakness. laugh

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Here we should be able to choose, what to tell her, for example when roleplaying lawful good -> "There will be no harm done towards you from our side", lawful evil - "Show that you are useful and you might still live"
So I just meant that she surrenders due to her inability to fight or do anything basically, not straight begging for mercy.
Minthara is shown to both value her life very highly and to be cowardly, so there is a reason why she would surrender.
As for resurrecting, certainly that should be a + in relation if player is willing to try to redeem her. If we end up killing her, I know that in Forgotten Realms characters have to agree to resurrection; so this could be tricked by forcing someone else, like a goblin mage/priest/warlock to read the scroll. After which a big suprise moment happens for Minthara.
This whole conversation can be just the same happening in your camp, when she is in that cage ...
After all, she have informations we could want.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I based this on indication, that she is not exactly 100% loyal to the Absolute, which is given during dialogue with her in a Camp. Since Minthara can't really return back and she has enemies everywhere now, the drow might decide to do anything to improve her dire situation. It could be done in a different way, like she reveals to you only basic and unimportant information, since there is little trust towards but it improves as time goes, if you continue to act well towards her.
Just like the rest of Absolute leaders, she doesn't show an awarness of being infected by the Tadpole too, so your point with Moonrise towers is great and could give her a good reason to reconsider what is she doing and let her for example join us as a companion in act 2.
And that is exactly why i would pass every relation mading decision to post-moonrise towers ...

First of all, seeing on her own eyes what is happening there could shaken her believes.
And also (as much i presume) in the end of Moonrise Towers story your character will probably be known either as blessed by the Absolute ... or destroyer of the Absolute ... so, that sounds to me like good reason for Minthara to concider you either valuable aly, or threat big enough to want to stay on your good side.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Yes, mocking our character definitely fits her, although it's shouldn't be to the point of it being ridiculous since she is not stupid and her situation isn't exactly the best. And if you continue to treat her humanely for long enough (by for example giving her normal food and drink instead of just bread and water, letting her sleep on bedroll instead of sleeping on the ground, letting her keep the equipment (except the weapon and shield obviously, bandaging her after the fight, bringing her a health potion), she should behave better.
I imagine it as mocking and laughting at us for the first time ... and in time change that to lecturing us about how people need to be strong, and how our good will and hope makes us weak ... then there could be some persuation dices to show her that even in our "weakened" status we were able to defeat her ... etc. etc.
Basicly i believe that Minthara in cage is perfect opourtunity for our protagonist to lead filosofic debates abour selflessness vs. selfishness, pros and cons, etc. smile

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
First time, when you ask her when she is your prisoner, how is she feeling? You get a insulting response in a style of "go away and see if you aren't somewhere close to that rock nearby"
But when enough time passes and you don't stop treating her well, she will respond first neutrally, then nicely. At one point she will say, that if you let her join your squad, she will be a much more useful than just sitting here in the prisoner cage doing nothing.
Same reaction as abowe, and even more abowe. laugh

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
It is shown if you side with her, that she is definitely someone with a huge logical possibility of redemption arc, with it starting to get going after we reach Moonrise Towers in act 1 and with act 2 letting us recruit her as a companion.
Honestly, i hope not.
Yes, there certainly is possibility for redemption arc, and i think that would be shame (or misstake if that would be the only way) ... not everyone in world need to be redempted, no everyone want to be redempted, and since some protagonist simply are evil, they also need someone to follow them.

Anyway why so many people loves redemtion story, and we get so few coruption story? laugh
It could be fun if in every single conversation between Minthara and Protagonist we have options to either try to redempt her, or being corupted by her ... and see where it goes. :3

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
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I dont see any conection between Halsin and Tieflings ...
So why this condition? O_o
Because he seems to be a good person caring for the rest and unlike Kagha he does show a soft side for Tieflings by letting them stay in the Grove.
Maybe ...
I know that in mine first gameplay i decided to help tieflings, and killed Kagha ... and every single other druid with her ... and truth is that Halsin forgived me, with words "you did what you had to do" ...

But anyway this condition still seem odd ...
We should be able to tell, and show "captured Halsin" all things we can no matter if we killed Tieflings or not. :-/
Even if we wipe whole groove ... we can regred that decision afterwards, especialy if we then also fail to persuate Minthara to not attack us, since in that case, we are litteraly alone.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
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Since using secret passage will have same result, and since you are no "suply manager" of the groove, but simply traveler, who just happened to arive there ...
I cant quite imagine how exactly you like to justify such action. O_o
Zevlor mentions using oil barrels as a part of defense plan and tieflings trust you in 100% when you side with them during the first attack on grove.
Yeah, they were diging holes and filling them with oil barels since you left (unless you decide to return, before you tell Minthara where they are) ...

It just still seem odd ... like:
"Heya Zevlor, things just happened and i have found this 20 barrels of certainly 100% oil, dont open it even if they weight barely half of those you have ben diging all around whole afternoon ... wanna use them aswell?"

Sorry, but i cant see it right, especialy if using secret passage gets the same result without need of your "simple traveler" become bigest oil merchant in sword coast. :-/

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I remember seeing survey on reddit, with players being asked what could make them play the evil side. Suprisingly.... it was "better story reason"
I have not seen any survey, but i have participated in many discusions on this theme with other people here on forum ...
All i can say for sure is that some will never be satisfied. And not even Larian can please everyone. :-/


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Yup ... and they strugle to their last breath, since they know better than anyone what is happening to prisoners, or slaves.

I see no need for this cutscene ... we either finish her off in regular combat, or knock her out ...
And if we knock her out, then Zevlor (and possibly Halsin) asks us after battle, what will we do with her ... then we can decide to either give her to tieflings, or druids, or keep her for oureself.

I simply dont like the idea her showing us her weakness.

Actually it's a very good idea if you indeed manage to knock her out, fully agreed on that one. The whole chase part of the idea, could be also added there, like if we kill enough attackers and she starts to flee, after battle Zevlor approaches us and tells us basically same thing. It's even better for devs since it's 99% same dialogue with just one part differing, with first sentence differing that she wasn't captured unconscious during the battle, instead the tieflings sent after her have done that. (after all Minthara is a big fish in goblin camp, so it's a huge tactical victory to hold her as a prisoner)

As for the cutscene, I'm not sure what weakness would she be showing, when she is literally unable to fight anymore. All that she could do at this point, is to look at our character either miserably or with disgust (or even both). And at least for me, it adds a decent roleplaying moment to see the results differ, based on what we have done during the siege. After all the battle would hugely differ in result, right? If we want to be chaotic evil, well, it's obvious what we will do. At same moment, if someone wants to roleplay a lawful or just a good character (even neutral evil actually), it adds a bit of flavor to have a different options, regarding the now captured prisoner, including the first option, which would happen still in the grove, right as they capture the drow.

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This whole conversation can be just the same happening in your camp, when she is in that cage ...
After all, she have informations we could want.

Same as above IMO, adds a little bit of roleplaying aspect and could affect her initial behaviour in camp (if she is disgusted with us or scared)


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And that is exactly why i would pass every relation mading decision to post-moonrise towers ...

First of all, seeing on her own eyes what is happening there could shaken her believes.
And also (as much i presume) in the end of Moonrise Towers story your character will probably be known either as blessed by the Absolute ... or destroyer of the Absolute ... so, that sounds to me like good reason for Minthara to concider you either valuable aly, or threat big enough to want to stay on your good side.

It is going to be a decisive point, that's for sure. Depending on how do you want to act:
- You could either make her attached to you because like I have said before, she has noone else as an ally, she can't return due to likely punishment and it's too dangerous for her to be alone
- You have shown her that the so called Absolute lied to her (as apparently the cult followers do not know about the Tadpole)
- You have destroyed the Absolute at Moonrise Towers, earning her respect or fear, depending on your interactions
- A decision by PC was made, leading to increased control over the tadpole. Again, she might be loyal out of respect or fear
Obviously how do you treat her should be a huge factor here, if she is afraid, respects/likes you, if PC tries to romance her (only possible with good attitiude and after some time) etc.


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[I imagine it as mocking and laughting at us for the first time ... and in time change that to lecturing us about how people need to be strong, and how our good will and hope makes us weak ... then there could be some persuation dices to show her that even in our "weakened" status we were able to defeat her ... etc. etc.
Basicly i believe that Minthara in cage is perfect opourtunity for our protagonist to lead filosofic debates abour selflessness vs. selfishness, pros and cons, etc. smile

Same reaction as abowe, and even more abowe.
Well said!

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Honestly, i hope not.
Yes, there certainly is possibility for redemption arc, and i think that would be shame (or misstake if that would be the only way) ... not everyone in world need to be redempted, no everyone want to be redempted, and since some protagonist simply are evil, they also need someone to follow them.

Anyway why so many people loves redemtion story, and we get so few coruption story? laugh
It could be fun if in every single conversation between Minthara and Protagonist we have options to either try to redempt her, or being corupted by her ... and see where it goes. :3
I must say, that it makes sense for her to be redeemed, but only if player does lead her there. I agree that there should be possbility of leading her towards the darker path, after all we might for example want to do a evil-style campaign, right? The more options the better! (as long as they follow logic, obviously)
As for redemption stories being popular, it's because they are pretty emotional and usually easier to do than someone being corrupted into being evil in a way that makes sense.
Seeing simliar style of interaction for companions (slowly changing their worldview), who are full of doubt or could have their worldview easily shaken (like Lae'zel, Gale, Shadowheart) would be beyond amazing.


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Maybe ...
I know that in mine first gameplay i decided to help tieflings, and killed Kagha ... and every single other druid with her ... and truth is that Halsin forgived me, with words "you did what you had to do" ...

But anyway this condition still seem odd ...
We should be able to tell, and show "captured Halsin" all things we can no matter if we killed Tieflings or not. :-/
Even if we wipe whole groove ... we can regred that decision afterwards, especialy if we then also fail to persuate Minthara to not attack us, since in that case, we are litteraly alone.

Yes, I can't disagree with Halsin still letting us recieve help from him. Especially if there is a genuine regret coming from our character, which he as a powerful, wise druid could easily sense. Forcing us to kill him is just lame.
As for the Minthara part, the only way to fight her at camp is to basically treat her badly, so that you are forced to do an intimidation check (as persuasion option always works, same goes for tadpole power) or to choose to fight her anyways. There should be an option to still manage the situation with less than lethal result (knockout/resurrection/whatever) so that we are given more control over how it goes. It could be an interesting roleplay option for evil characters to punish her, but still let her live and work for you. (lawful/neutral evil comes to mind). Or be nice (and evil character could still do this if player chooses it, as a manipulation tactic, feigning forgiveness). It should be much more flexible.


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Yeah, they were diging holes and filling them with oil barels since you left (unless you decide to return, before you tell Minthara where they are) ...

It just still seem odd ... like:
"Heya Zevlor, things just happened and i have found this 20 barrels of certainly 100% oil, dont open it even if they weight barely half of those you have ben diging all around whole afternoon ... wanna use them aswell?"

Sorry, but i cant see it right, especialy if using secret passage gets the same result without need of your "simple traveler" become bigest oil merchant in sword coast. :-/

Fair point, after a little bit of thinking indeed the secret passage seems like a perfect solution, avoiding the problem described above. It would be probably less annoying to code and implement into game too and would give the secret passage location a little more of gameplay time.

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I have not seen any survey, but i have participated in many discusions on this theme with other people here on forum ...
All i can say for sure is that some will never be satisfied. And not even Larian can please everyone. :-/

Hmm, that is why I prefer to have more (than less) options in games for as long, as they make sense. Not only does it improve replayability and roleplaying, but also it makes more people satisfied, since we can fit a lot of playstyles. Looking at reddit and forums, many people were dis-satisfied because of lack of choice.
For example the grove siege forces a "murderhobo solution" as soon as it begins, meanwhile a smart evil character would either bait their leader into an ambush through tunnels, use the gate trick with opening it just to catch some of attackers into a trap or focus the leader. Everyone fighting to death doesn't make any sense either and it would make the battle less of a chore (AI processing times for so many characters) for them to flee if we meet the criteria.


Currently fighting inside the actual camp/grove is not so well done and serves little purpose, seeing 20 goblins take 5 min in total to do their turns, all of them approaching to those 3 tieflings who are spread apart like 30 m from each other; just to critically miss whenever possible.
And because of this simliar style of rework should be done if you attack the grove, with like mentioned before, showing the secret passage (but without it being a trap, this time).
Zevlor dying/being knocked out/etc. should impact Tieflings negatively, the battle should take place mostly on the walls, when defenders are still relatively organised, then at druid grove and optionally in the chamber ( let us choose to still spare tieflings, good reasons even for evil characters for it were given in previous posts).

It wouldn't be hard to code a morale system, with let's say that Zevlor dying takes 3 points away, one of defenders dying takes 1 points. With 12 defenders there to begin with, including the Zevlor, it would make it 14 points initially; if it falls down below 6 defenders panic and run away, if it drops below 9 they lose 1 attack and AC point; the death of their leader should have simliar effect, with both fo them stacking. Simliar approach could be done for the defending part, with Goblins and Minthara having this solution applied to them as well, with difference that capturing Minthara duing the secret tunnel Ambush could cause enough of a mayhem among the Cultists, that they flee instantly when they lose only a few of their troops.

If a certain solution is not possible, there should be a reason for this; like Wyll won't cooperate with Goblins due to his past, no matter what. Or it just doesn't make sense, like Gale can't just become a lvl 20 wizard over a single night.

"Murderhobo solution" isn't bad as an option, it's bad that we can't do anything else while attacking/defending the grove. Playing chaotic evil barbarian would make sense for it, to be like it is now, with some changes like the morale/capture etc. mechanics, but why would 1000 IQ lawful evil wizard not try to maximise his advantage? The barbarian might just mererly enjoy fighting and killing enemies, while the wizard would want winning as easily as possible. And being able to play as anyone you want, while choosing evil side would make it more appealing for players to be picked. Even the chaotic evil playstyle would benefit greatly, with another options of causing mess everywhere or following their ever changing whims.

What I personally love in Larian games is the emphasis on tactics and well thought actions with NPCs. Let us do that, especially since actions which could make it possible are already in the game. (the cage for prisoners, knocking out, resurrecting npcs, the secret passage, even in game characters tell us how important leaders for goblins and tieflings are)

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We are getting a little out od hand. laugh
I have my serious doubts that Larian can spend so much time with every single character. laugh

Just add some permutations and possibility to capture enemies instead of killing them would be fine. smile
That and allowing our characters to admit existence of secret passage. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Well I just want to see more interaction with Kagha and the dark druids. In the game at the moment, the reasons for her actions are not explained at all and we are not allowed to stand on her side, except for the moment with the murder of a child.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
and we are not allowed to stand on her side, except for the moment with the murder of a child.
I was able to even join her... didnt try tho. laugh


But when i investigate her connection with shadow druids, and then i confronted her ...
- i was able to either attack her and shadowdruids ...
- i was able to talk her out of this "madness" (that is what i choosed) and attack shadowdruids ..
- and finaly i was able to tell other druids, that things will be changing from now on (presuming its supporting the shadowdruids)

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We are getting a little out od hand. laugh
I have my serious doubts that Larian can spend so much time with every single character. laugh

Just add some permutations and possibility to capture enemies instead of killing them would be fine. smile
That and allowing our characters to admit existence of secret passage. laugh

Hmm, If you think about it. If people complain about not having enough options, about the siege (least of choice is present there) being too simple, all of this can be solved just with a literally few changes, which would work for both sides and would definitely reuse code, making it easier for devs to implement.
Like the situation with passage, where you can take 2 sides, but the arrival cutscene would be same no matter who you choose, simliar to how the beginning of gate attack is handled. Then, you get to decide with who to stick with.

Morale having impact during the siege would work for both ways as well, depending on who you want to support, saving time for coding while improving the gameplay and at same making sense still. Also it would relieve the players of having to fight 20000 enemies who take so much of a turn turn time currently. (so overall let's say that you need to kill 2/3 of attackers instead of all of them)
You could still choose to fight it the old way, focus the leader during the gate fight or target weaker enemies with AoE attacks so that their total numbers drop down.
Killing Zevlor/Kagha before the siege should have an effect too, besides just them not being there. The tieflings/druids wouldn't fight so well and organise themselves properly without someone guiding them.

Capturing prisoners works for no matter who you choose. Although understandably, this should be restricted to be only for more complex NPCS who have a big impact on storyline, like Kagha, Zevlor, Minthara, Halsin (with Minthara/Halsin having the biggest amount of content simply due to having big potential for storyline in next acts) Expecting to have possibility of complex interactions with literally anyone is not real. And another benefit of this system would be the possibility of what a lot of players did ask for, that is not killing Halsin when siding with Minthara and vice versa, enabling the possiblity of taking mixed choices.

Deciding what to do with tieflings also should impact the appropriate side. Kagha being dead or convinced to give up with her plan or just having no power anymore should make the defenders fight a little better, due to them seeing the hope. Or just having to deal with mostly/only druids if you want to attack and you will manage to save them in one of ways mentioned before.

I don't think that few extra cutscenes depicting for example the situations during the grove defense would harm the game in any way, or be that hard or time consuming to do, quite the opposite rather.
Like I said before, a few lines with a choice of lines (what to do, what to say to the prisoner if they are conscious, if they aren't knocked out). It would prevent forcing the player to jump down the wall if they want to not kill, but rather capture the drow leader.
Imagine, that for example you choose to focus the cleric warlord, bringing her to 1 hp (100% chance, even if she is at 5 hp and you hit for 20 damage, she still goes down to 1 hp), with animation of her being downed in a simliar way to players happens. There is not cutscene needed for it even. Then if you target her again, she dies. Obviously no npc should targer her anymore and she should not recieve any damage, unless it comes from player controller character. Whatever you do, you still see the negative effects of being de facto leaderless on attackers. (and you hear defenders cheering) If you win the grove battle because you wipe enough of the invaders out, a cutscene plays, if Minthara did survive, with Zevlor saying to you, the usual "thank you", with then asking what to do with now unable to fight or even move cleric of Absolute.
I believe that you did mention same idea, that you then choose to give her to tieflings, druids, execute, or take her as your prisoner.
If you choose the capture option, a cutscene plays with your character approaching the Minthara with his companions, with her looking at you with anger. You get the option to "mention" what kind of treatment she is likely get from you, with appropriate reaction being shown, like disgust or fear. Next, if you come back to the camp, you see her in prisoner cage with all the options mentioned before. She would take the Volo's role of stiting in the prisoner cage during the party.
The attack from the secret passage ending in capture should also get somewheat simliar cutscene. With even bigger effect on attackers, because not only they have no leader now but also their mega smart and secret plan has failed. With PC being able to have a persuasion or intimidation roll to make the "cooperation" easier. (obviously, in style of "you walk to walls or we just carry you there" and "work with us and you won't be punished").
Attackers fleeing and Minthara still being alive should still give you possibility to capture or kill her still, with defenders still catching up with her.


Resurrecting NPC's besides providing obvious additional roleplay options would help if for example they somehow die because of not our fault. When I wanted to save Halsin in the goblin camp, during the fight goblins got critical hits several times in a row on him, while he and my companions missed quite a lot despite having decent chances to hit (thanks to flanking, high attack etc.)
Halsin did not die, but having about 1/3 th of health does indicate that he can die. If you check steam forums especially, the issue isn't that rare even.
While the problem is not super common, it's still exists and it's not unreal for it to happen, since after all dice rolls define the fights. If you happen to get really unlucky, not only will you miss lots of attacks while the opposite happens for the enemies, who get lucky hits with lots of damage. This would prevent any kind of glitches causing the death of important characters having any impact as well.
Oh, I would forget how famous Wyll is being for jumping down during the first attack and dying there. Game not always handles what happens with him later properly, if you still do bring him back to life. Like, he decides to just sit in the same spot, where he died and refuses to talk.

The whole conflict is presented as a kind of a main quest, so there is no reason for it to be presented in such simple way. You could escape from Fort Joy in Divinity 2 in 29139293 ways. Think of the siege of the grove in a simliar way, a big part of a main quest, with lots of ways to overcome the problem, not just "kill all enemies who attack" or "kill every defender".

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Nyloth,

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Well I just want to see more interaction with Kagha and the dark druids. In the game at the moment, the reasons for her actions are not explained at all and we are not allowed to stand on her side, except for the moment with the murder of a child.

Yes, I feel honestly quite simliar to you. While there is a reason given for why she works with the Shadow Druids, you can't do much if you want to support her side.
There is not enough of impact on the story, whatever happens,
besides sealing the grove which definitely does make the bad guys angry. I believe, though I would like someone to check this, that you have to kill Zevlor for it to happen


RagnarokCzD,

Quote
But when i investigate her connection with shadow druids, and then i confronted her ...
- i was able to either attack her and shadowdruids ...
- i was able to talk her out of this "madness" (that is what i choosed) and attack shadowdruids ..
- and finaly i was able to tell other druids, that things will be changing from now on (presuming its supporting the shadowdruids)

We should be able to see the effects of those choices, like I have mentioned before. Especially in relation to the whole conflict storyline.

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Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I don't think that few extra cutscenes depicting for example the situations during the grove defense would harm the game in any way, or be that hard or time consuming to do,
Its not ... but its just a start ...
You add few options to Minthara, few options to Halsin, few options to Kagha, few options to Zevlor, few options to Ragzlin, few options to Gut, few options to Volo ... and before you knowing it, you are adding hunderts of new lines. laugh

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
We should be able to see the effects of those choices, like I have mentioned before. Especially in relation to the whole conflict storyline.
Yeah, i dont know the outcome since patch come in my way and i didnt play it to the end ... and didnt re-play it after, since i honestly hate new casting system. frown
Also as far as i know, there should be another "big patch" "behind the corner" so i probably wait for that before start testing over again.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Now, with AI and a completely simulated dialogue and all that you might get more options - but there is a shitload of work put into what there is now and it really shows with each person having something unique to say - BG3 is well above and beyond other games in that manner. It isn't as fluid as with a DM there, but you just cannot get it without an intelligence designing it as you go - so for something like this you need a huge jump in AI that can speak its own words and design its own animations - and there is no indication that we are close, as a species, to making that possible in the near future.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Now, with AI and a completely simulated dialogue and all that you might get more options - but there is a shitload of work put into what there is now and it really shows with each person having something unique to say - BG3 is well above and beyond other games in that manner. It isn't as fluid as with a DM there, but you just cannot get it without an intelligence designing it as you go - so for something like this you need a huge jump in AI that can speak its own words and design its own animations - and there is no indication that we are close, as a species, to making that possible in the near future.

Hmm, I didn't honestly mean an AI simulated dialogue even - most of things mentioned above could be done with simple scripts and conditions, like the siege situation, for defense:
- Is the leader of goblins incapitated or dead? Apply the debuff to bad guys and decrease the morale value.
- Is morale low enough? Make the attackers (including the leader, if able to) flee.
- Is the battle over? Minthara is dead? Standard celebrtion cutscene.
- Battle is won and the drow is still alive, but incapable of further fight or movement - the cutscene with capturing scenario is played.
- The tieflings are victorius and the leader of goblins escaped, slightly altered (1-2 lines diff lines) cutscene plays with Zevlor, with player having same choices as with scenario before.

There is no need for very complex code or big brain AI style for this. The ideas work both ways, since very well you could apply the same thing to tieflings, with them panicking if enough of them die and Zevlor's death would have quite big impact. The potential secret tunnel attack also would be done in a simliar way to how does the attack begin now - shared beginning, shared cutscene, but ability to pick the side and + a little bit of talk after, then differing final cutscene.

Gonna repeat this again too, we have the prisoner cage in camp, ability to knock out and resurrect npcs. It would not be hard to put this to use, with the effort going mostly into dialogues and conditions, as for how do we treat our prisoners. Like I said before, this option for obvious reasons should be only possible for major npcs, not for some random goblin (because mo-cap, voice acting and making good dialogue is not free).

As for the Kagha, I was talking about more storyline implications and potential rewards, making it a plausible choice for players to decide to side with her.
It's all about basically adding more conditions with new results and some cutscenes here and there.

I agree that BG3 is way above most of the games when it comes to dialogues, reactions and choices, but few parts were noticeably lacking and judging by the reactions from the past, most of people would like to have them improved. Would this be done, (including things from the previous posts) noone could say anymore that the evil side is boring/one sided/"murderhobo"/chaotic evil only. Also, many currently problematic parts, like mega long siege because 20 goblins have to take a turn until all of them are dead would stop being a such a problem, with you needing to kill let's say 3/4 of enemies, instead of all of them. While at same time, providing you with choice of tactics other than "nuke every single enemy", this applying to both sides.

Do not forget, that Larian does care a lot about their games too, adding often hidden things, that players spot rarerly, like what happens with Kniles in Divinity 2 if you teleport him in to cage; or the whole Gareth storyline, having actually plenty of possible results. Solving the major quest in only basically 3 ways - kill goblin leaders, defend the grove/attack the grove (both are "murderhobo" only) is also quite unsual. Again, take look at what you could do in Fort Joy. There is a reason why if people hear Larian, they associate it with high quality games.

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Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Currently, after completing the Act 1 on both sides, one thing felt particulary lacking. The lack of creative interactions with cerain npcs who are important for quests, just beyond slaughtering them; also the possiblity of solving the quests in other ways. Especially since we have the knockout mechanic, we have the npc resurrecting mechanic, we have the prisoner cage at our camp, so why not use those for improving the gameplay and roleplay options?

1) Minthara leads her attack on the grove and we side with tieflings. As for now, game forces the "murderhobo solution" during the ensuring fight...
a) During the battle, we target the drow and she is brought to low health. Judging by her character she should start to flee, which should cause a debuff to all remaining attackers. After the battle we are given the choice of pursing her, resulting in us capturing the drow lady as a prisoner/letting her run/chasing her and finishing her off.
b) We wipe the attackers out and Minthara is the only one alive -> she starts to flee, if no enemies are close, with same options as above
c) During the fight, we knock her out -> when fight ends, we hold Minthara as a prisoner in our camp (as for now, in game journal only updates the quest properly if she is dead and knocking her out makes tieflings finish her off)
d) FIght is ending, with Minthara having enemies close to her and she is brought to low health. She is asking for mercy and surrenders to us.
e) She dies, but we use resurrection scroll on her -> ends up being captured (can't be done currently on enemy characters)
f) Very important IMO, killing enough of the invaders should cause the rest to flee, with their leader calling them cowards and either b) or d) happening.
g) Minthara dies and fight becomes easier, since the bad guys have no leader now

Her current behaviour not only completely defies her character (she considers her life to be valuable and she is pretty cowardly, with her willing to fight only if she can easily win) but also it doesn't make sense for attackers to fight as efficiently if their leader is dead/fleeing/unconscious. It was even said by Minthara that they need a strong hand to lead them, or else they will disperse.

Now, as for what interactions should be when we capture her:
- Interrogating for information, about Moonrise towers, Absolute, her role, who is she, her past, etc.
During the dialogues we should be able to treath her nicely, neutrally or badly, with each type of treatment affecting how she respond to us (like if we treat her well, she willingly reveals to us the information about Moonrise towers + Absolute and offers to join us)
- Trying to convince her to join us (after all, she doesn't want to get punished for failing by her superiors, she needs protection from her previous "allies", only possible with good treatment, logical beginning for redemption arc, which given her character is something that is pretty possible, with later option for romance if player wishes so)
- Finish her off
- Letting her go, possibly meeting her somewhere again


2) If we choose to side with "bad guys", if fight happens between us and Minthara after the celebration party, again, it doesn't make any sense for her to fight until the last breath, neither it makes sense for knockout to not work (currently it puts her to 1 hp, renders her unconscious, but as soon as we end the day again she is willing to fight again with 1 hp, what the hell?). As an example, after we knock her out, simliar interactions could be possible as above, with addition of (if player wishes to do so) spending the rest of night bandaging her, etc to improve the relation.


3) Now, interactions with tieflings
a) If we ask Zevlor to move the tieflings out of the grove, he attacks us. After this happens (and he dies/surrenders/is knocked out), we should have the possibility of our party convincing tieflings to leave, with only druids remaining in the grove.
b) With hard persuasion check, it should be possible that we can convince Minthara to only focus on druids, with her forces still looting the camp, but letting the tielfings go to spread the word about the Absolute or just by telling her that they might be useful later in future
c) We let tieflings hide or escape during/before the siege through the tunnels
d) Make it possible for us to somehow undermine Zevlor's authority among tieflings, so that they do not listen to him anymore, supporting the option a)
e) Attack the druids together with tieflings, with some of the druids siding with us (since they aren't happy about how Kagha rules the Grove)
f) After we return from Minthara, we can tell tiefling defenders what did she order us to do, with our allies putting the traps inside, close to the gate, making barricades there, etc. Basically during siege, we open the gate, attackers rush inside, gate gets closed, which creates a trap for them
g) We agree to trick Minthara into attacking from tunnels, where she gets trapped and captured/killed during the fight


4) And time for Halsin, our favourite druid.
- When he does attack us in the camp, when we do side with "evil" drow lady, he gets bugged like her, if we knock him out (1 hp -_- and still wants to fight). There should be an option to hold him as a prisoner and in general act towards him in simliar ways to described above, although due to his character being different than Minthara, he should behave differenly, that is harder to persuade, etc.
An example of persuasion could be, that we sided with "bad guys" because:
a) We failed to find the Halsin
b) Druids didn't act too nicely towards us (looking at you, Kagha and Nettie)
c) We regret helping the goblins
d) This should be only possible if the tieflings don't die
e) We return the idol of Silvanus to him, which we found after defeating the druids
f) We show him the proof that Kagha worked with
Shadow druids, so we thought that most of druids are evil then

- During our infiltration of the goblin camp, his death causes journal to update. Homever we can resurrect him, sadly game still thinks that he is dead, when it comes to quests and other characters. Same bug applies to Zevlor as well.

5) Goblin camp inflitration, attack and overall interaction, including siding with evil side:
a) Capturing Minthara, the Dror Ragzlin or Priestess Gut
b) Possibility of causing an interal war between the leaders, supporting one of them
c) Ability to become the leader of goblins yourself (after killing/capturing/"convincing" the rest)
e) Destroying the bridge leading outside, delaying the attack enough for tieflings to move out, for example by asking our ogre mercs to do it, or by using black powder barrel
f) Tricking the drow warlord into attacking false spot, again giving tieflings time to prepare
g) Causing an internal war in Druid Grove, like described above (Tieflings vs Druids), to weaken the grove
h) Tell defenders fake information about how the goblins will attack, to make defense harder and make it impossible for them to prepare.
i) Arrange the transport of "oil barrels" , with actually goblins hiding inside the barrels and helping us during the siege, when given the signal.
j) Make it possible for us to send some of attackers through tunnel to grove, if we discover it first.
k) Destroy/poison the food supplies of either Grove or Goblin Camp, forcing an early attack with weakened enemies or making defenders weaker, possibly even forcing them to move.
l) Be able to gather additional allies for attack or defense (like flaming fist/mercenaries) or for example improve the weapons on your troops, by engaging in attack on merchant wagons travelling nearby.

6) Fight when we first arrive at druid grove
- possibility of joining the goblins, who while get repelled during the attack, lead us back to goblin camp and we get treated there well, instead of the usual mocking.
- not taking either side

Currently many players do not do evil path, because there aren't enough interactions, compared to the good side, but also because of how badly goblins treat us unless we are drows. Solution above would fix the problem completely. Also, we should be given better explaination why we join the goblins, like for possiblity of controlling tadpole or learning how it works so that we can remove it later. (Since if their top leaders probably know how to create those tadpoles, they also know how to remove them)


The analisys with criticisim that I love.

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This is well thought out and I agree. Actually, oddly, I wouldn't mind being able to capture other characters who are known to have a brain parasite or resurrect them to capture them, a makeshift jail being set up in camp. I would love playing out the consequences for knocking out and capturing that gnoll who has one for example, maybe even recruiting him or suffering cause we should have just left him dead. They seem to follow the absolute, but many of them also seem to value their lives or have valuable information. But maybe I am being hopeful and I am a proponent for unique companions like Us the Intellect Devourer, and loving filling out a camp, even with prisoners...

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I would also like to destroy others tadpoles aswell ...
You know what i mean right? When you search Edwins corpse, there is tadpole crawling out of his eye.

Then you need to sucess few rolls, to finaly crush it ... funny enough you even could (not sure if that wasnt changed in curent patch) loss some approval of others, if you simply fail your diceroll and therefore tadpole escapes ... wich was ridiculous, since you have no control over that ...
But later you meet tadpoled gnoll, tadpoled tiefling, tadpoled drow, tadpoled goblin, tadpoled hopgoblin ... and if you kill them, nobody cares that their tadpoles could survive. Isnt that odd?

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 07/01/21 09:24 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I agree with what you wrote! Sparing Minthar in a good playthrough is a great idea.

But I would like the option for Minthara to cooperate with the Kagha so that only the tieflings are killed. If there are shadow druids in the game, they should also have their own storyline, I want to help Minthara but Kagha looks cute too, there should be an option to make them cooperate

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TheOnlyRealTav
> See? I told you that was only start.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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