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There is literally a rogue subclass in 5e called "Swashbuckler." If you are going to come to this forum and continuously bash the system this game is based on, could you at least do your homework first?

"To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories."

So you're saying that 5e has apparently simplified everything, so people can't make interesting characters, yet you're the one telling Larian they have to change their character because it doesn't fit your skewed version of the rogue class. That's some mental gymnastics right there.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.
Two thoughts about this
1- Doesn't Astarion classify as an Assassin? I'm almost certain he kills people as ordered by Cazador, or at least lead them to their death
2- Just because a game is based on something, it doesn't mean the writers can't have the "creative license" to go beyond it. Things aren't and shouldn't be set in stone, specially for narrative purposes. Besides, this isn't some game breaking issue.

Last edited by A_va; 02/01/21 09:00 PM.
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I had to laugh at the idea that aristos can't be criminals, it reminded me of this:

"Vimes reached behind the desk and picked up a faded copy of Twurp’s Peerage or, as he personally thought of it, the guide to the criminal classes. You wouldn’t find slum dwellers in these pages, but you would find their landlords. And, while it was regarded as pretty good evidence of criminality to be living in a slum, for some reason owning a whole street of them merely got you invited to the very best social occasions." - Prachett.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

Who cares. Seriously, maybe the writers took their freedoms. Astarion is good as a rogue, he's heartless, his callousness is obvious, he deceives and lies, he craves and flourish in senseless carnage and violence, furthermore he is in the run from his master, what better background and character for a rogue?

Moreover if Larian had to follow by the letter the manuals it would mean to loose what makes them Larian. Also what about a minimun of flexibility?

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I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

Agree, my guess is that the writer is stuck in some twilight sexfantasy. Vampires are not low level creatures.

Vampires eat human = bad romance

It makes no sense to have a vampire in this story.


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Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

Agree, my guess is that the writer is stuck in some twilight sexfantasy. Vampires are not low level creatures.

Vampires eat human = bad romance

It makes no sense to have a vampire in this story.

It makes sense in a DOS game smile

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They had to come with the tadpole excuse for him, because there is no Day/night cycle.

Also he is too much comical for a dark character.

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Astarian is fine, overall......despite the fact that in the vast majority of my SOLO playthroughs, I kill him, but then again, I kill most of the NPC we can party, cause yeah, I am play SOLO, don't need them. But yeah, Astarian is fine, in no need of being re-worked.

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Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

Agree, my guess is that the writer is stuck in some twilight sexfantasy. Vampires are not low level creatures.

Vampires eat human = bad romance

It makes no sense to have a vampire in this story.

But he's not a vampire, he's a vampire spawn. Which is still different. And that makes him a conditional vampire+slave. Also, vampires are evil characters, so it all goes well. I beg you he is one of the most popular characters, because Larian combined the best in him. He's an noble, a vampire, and an asshole. Perfect.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
But he's not a vampire, he's a vampire spawn.

Not as much of a difference as you pretend. He is still a vampire with many vampire powers.

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Nah, Astarion is fine. No rework needed.

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As written before, they should change him from being a vampire spawn to being a slave of a vampire. He can keep his personality, he still has reasons to kill or escape his former master and we remove all the problems with the vampire powers he does not have.

A vampire spawn is quite powerful, they regenerate every turn unless hit by radient damage, can climb on walls and ceilings and they are resistant to necrotic damage. Being damaged by running water can be avoided most of the time. Only sunlight sensitivity is bad in a timeless game where it never gets dark except while resting.


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They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.


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This thread is completely nonsensical. No, OP, rogues do not have to be criminals. Those are examples of where you could find rogues. Not examples of what a rogue have to be.


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Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.


Due to the background, something a lot of posters tend to ignore in their arguments, and the set Larian created the presence of Astarion as a Vampire breed, he is a minion in the run far from be a full fledged powerful vampire, the party crashed in a place that immediatly let us now they're in a middle of a conspiracy that involves high level players (like Raphael).

The 10yo reference I'd apply more to how players are criticizing the game ignoring all the backgrounds and all the setting and to how a lot of complains are about the fact that the game dares to ask for something more than the usual "build you characater as a powerhouse" and don't even try to even marginaly remember that role playing means to rely in background stories, setting, flexibility.

Maybe is because the tabletop I played was Vampires The Masquerade in wich to create a powerhouse was quite difficult and the backgrounds had to be solid to be able to merge with the setting, to me the flaws in a lot of arguments are crystal clear. And I wanted to play a Vampire because to play one has a lot of narrative and role playing potential, a vampire is a cursed soul forced in a dead body, someone who can not see the dawn or the sunset, who can not see themselves in a mirror, a being whose humanity and morality are continuosly eroded by the feral insticts. But ehy to want to play a vampire means to be a ten years old [again not so much of arguments here]

There is this post about Astarion not elegible to be a rogue, there are those with the idea that level one characters should be newbies just out of wizardry school or fighting academy or temple or whatever place they used to train, the post about the rangers favoured enemy and how bad was for powerhouse building the fact that the acquired abilities didn't rely on the prefered stats of the class, all have a common trait: in the arguments the personal opinion is clear and open just like the lack of analysis about the backgrounds of the characters, that clearly and solidly and coherently justify the fact that the companions are at level one [a trope that is widely used in rpg, if someone has the chance I suggest to see the campaign, in their youtube chanel, of the group Vive la dirt League], or the set that justify socialites like the companions being involved instead of newbies [seriously: the area surrounding the crash sites has darkdruids plotting, Drows, Bugbears, Trolls, Goblins cohoperating, and entire race moving not in their usual clan way but as a, even if fragile, unified ensemble, and lets not forget that the Drows and Goblins abbandoned their faith to follow a new deity.

Still a lot of comments states that for such a party (a cleric, with erased memories, in a suicide mission on a nautiloid vessel, a fallen and broken wizard, a warlock that regrets his pact with his patron and whose patron has been kidnapped, a vampire minion on the run, a lower rank gith) the crash area is plain and not at their level.

And when the background comes aroun in the arguments there are not critics on incoherences, narratibe weakness, but just plain and flat remarks about them being "contrited" or whatever diminishing adjective is used.

Maybe I'm weird, and, despite being an adult from archeological ages, a ten years old alike, but I do think that the vampire part of Astarion makes him interesting: he is both an arrogant aristocrat high elf with all of due entitlement and a weakling in the run from someone who is really powerful and embraced (sorry Vampires the masquerade slang, I don't know ho the act of creating a new vampire is called in DnD) him to dimish and, maybe, punish him for his twisted and corrupted ways, the fact that he is able to walk in daylight adds layers to the complexity of the conspiration that is evolving in Faerun because is another hint, that sums up with the fact that an Archdruid a powerful Hag an heretic Mindflyer are unable to remove it and to the fact that a powerful demon offers his help, that the culprits are very skilled in netherese magic and probably of very high level.

But that doesn't matter, a conclusion I came because, let me said again, no one has ever really analized the backgrounds and the story.

I wonder how the writers, who are profesionals and not fan fiction writers of archiveofourown, feel when the critics to their work are summed up in affirmations like "why don't put nameofapowerfulbeingoffaerun as companion" [Even when the companios as supposedly powerful they were before the start of this campaign were still far from the peak of the real powerful beings of Faerun]? Or "this is like 10yo, not even written in letters, play rpg" or in posts that don't even try to point out where is the perceived weakness or the fallaciousness of the narrative or the backgrounds.


or how the programmers feel when the critics, a lot of them i dare to say the majority of them, are not about real problems and issues but about feelings of betrayal because the videogame doesn't follow to the lettter this or that edition of rules manual, or because role playing is now more about how you build a powerhouse instead of how to roleplay [the only complains about the dialogues were those that brought down the uniqueness of Shadowheart, because a woman must be gentle and cute because if she is blunt and arsh she is a b*tch, and those, that I fully support, about how blunt are the sexual approaches of the companions].

This game has a big margin of improvement from the narrative point of view (there are incoherences like that of the inability to unmask Kagha after the Goblins/Thiefling questline is resolved, or the line that the main toon says when the mindflier in the crash sites dies, a line good for neutral or evil ones but not for good ones, but there is plenty of these incoherences) but to do that the writers and programmers need real criticism and arguments not just complains based on very personal feelings and that lack of a backbone.

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yeah se thats the problem everything thats happening is big stuff something you expect to se in a high level campaign not when you start at level one yeah sure it playable but still makes no sense. An vampire spawn in DnD are much more powerful then an plain human so i cant se why they thought it would be a good ide.

Its nothing wrong about playing powerful or epic campaings but then you ussually start at higher level or atleast everyone is a special class/race or having powerful artifacts.
Here they just gave him a Vampire template cause its cool.
Then for no reason takes away most vampire powers so he doesnt outpower the rest thats what im having problem with thats why the 10yo remark.
so far we know that sunlight and eter home is gone and apperentliy spider climb and regen. Running water dmg is reduced.

Regeneration: The Vampire regains 10 Hit Points at the start of its turn if it has at least 1 hit point and isn't in sunlight or running water. If the Vampire takes radiant damage or damage from Holy Water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn.

Spider Climb: The Vampire can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.

Vampire Weaknesses: The Vampire has the following flaws:
Forbiddance. The Vampire can't enter a Residence without an invitation from one of the occupants.
Harmed by Running Water. The Vampire takes 20 acid damage when it ends its turn in running water.
Stake to the Heart. The Vampire is destroyed if a piercing weapon made of wood is driven into its heart while it is Incapacitated in its Resting place.
Sunlight Hypersensitivity. The Vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on Attack Rolls and Ability Checks.


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Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.
Man to each their own. Role playing is about being whatever you want... Don't be nasty just because people play differently than you.

About Astarion as a vampire spawn - honestly I was kind of disappointed... People here claim he is super strong and shit but in game he has an extra special attack which is not that powerful and he dies when he touches water. Oh my how OP


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"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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People are saying that Vampire Spawn should be powerful, not that Astarion is.


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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.
Man to each their own. Role playing is about being whatever you want... Don't be nasty just because people play differently than you.

About Astarion as a vampire spawn - honestly I was kind of disappointed... People here claim he is super strong and shit but in game he has an extra special attack which is not that powerful and he dies when he touches water. Oh my how OP

First of we have a predefined world with rules.
Vampire spawns are NOT level 1 creatures.
Sure you can homebrew it in your own campaigns but this isnt your own.
This is Baldur's Gate 3
Same world
We had Vampires in BG2 try fighting on as a lvl1 char.
Vampire spawns regerate 10HP /round
Removed cause someone has a fantasy about vampires.
This is lore breaking and rule breaking its ok in your own campaign but once again this isnt.
Think they should stick as close to rulebooks as possible,

In bg1 i got killed but gibberlings in first area. The bear was a freaking monster. Here im wrestling with a vampire spawn.
SAME WORLD! supposly same campaing just 100years later.
if you dont see the problem with that im so happy for you.
for me it feels incredible stupid.
I wanted to play Baldur's Gate no twilight


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