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Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.
Agreed. It's also rather heavily implied that all of our companions got nerfed by the Tadpoles in a banter between Wyll and Gale.


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Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

+1 Well said.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?


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Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?

And you know what? That’s perfectly fine at your table. The problem is, even though the game is meant for each person, all the lore and companions affect everyone’s individual stories. Because we are all influenced by the story, it should try to stick with existing lore.

Each change that Larian makes doesn’t just affect one person. It affects everyone.

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Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.
Agreed. It's also rather heavily implied that all of our companions got nerfed by the Tadpoles in a banter between Wyll and Gale.

It is, but that is terrible plot contrivance.



Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?

I wouldn't, because my experience with roleplaying tells me that the very first thing this person would do is try to use the vampire spawn abilities we agreed they wouldn't get and throw a shit fit when I don't let them :P


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Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?

Wow really? id be more like
NO! not only is it stupid for you to be a vampire in this noobie campaigne im running and also if i let you be a vampire i have to let kyle be a werwolf and kenny can have is baby dragon. This is why we running a LOW LEVEL campaigne so we dont have the cool stuff from start. So sttop finding excuses and learn how to noob.

why do ppl wanna have a high level stuff from the start? cant we be allowed to grow?


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Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

Well, elf would explain why he was a vampire thrall ( not vampire spawn ) for centuries.
I do not think an evil master would use magic to make his minions live longer, especially if we talk about a lv1 rogue.


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Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

You make a valid point. Him being an elf is truly just cosmetic, and it would in fact make way more sense for him to be a human if he really wants to stay alive so much. Humans live short lives, it would truly make more sense for one of them to be obsessed with survival.

However is you make him human you have to keep him a vampire-spawn. Thralls age and die, and Astarion served Cazzy for 200 years. Thralls are not actually undead and they must receive blood from the master vampire every week or they lose all their powers. Astarion is going to hang out with us for far longer than that.

So if you make him human he must stay a spawn.

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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

You make a valid point. Him being an elf is truly just cosmetic, and it would in fact make way more sense for him to be a human if he really wants to stay alive so much. Humans live short lives, it would truly make more sense for one of them to be obsessed with survival.

However is you make him human you have to keep him a vampire-spawn. Thralls age and die, and Astarion served Cazzy for 200 years. Thralls are not actually undead and they must receive blood from the master vampire every week or they lose all their powers. Astarion is going to hang out with us for far longer than that.

So if you make him human he must stay a spawn.

Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.

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Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

What i'm saying is, having a longer lifespan does not make one not fear mortality. Many old people don't fear death, many young people do. Elves are prone to the same fears and worries any other race is, they are all different and you can't paint one with the same brush and say he shouldn't fear death because he lives 700+ years.

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Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

What i'm saying is, having a longer lifespan does not make one not fear mortality. Many old people don't fear death, many young people do. Elves are prone to the same fears and worries any other race is, they are all different and you can't paint one with the same brush and say he shouldn't fear death because he lives 700+ years.

While I see your point, I think that if us humans can find comfort and forget about death with only 30-40 years ahead of us, and elf can probably be very relaxed about it with 500 years ahead of them.

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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

What i'm saying is, having a longer lifespan does not make one not fear mortality. Many old people don't fear death, many young people do. Elves are prone to the same fears and worries any other race is, they are all different and you can't paint one with the same brush and say he shouldn't fear death because he lives 700+ years.

While I see your point, I think that if us humans can find comfort and forget about death with only 30-40 years ahead of us, and elf can probably be very relaxed about it with 500 years ahead of them.

Natural causes is not the only way to die, elves can still be killed as easily as a human

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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

You make a valid point. Him being an elf is truly just cosmetic, and it would in fact make way more sense for him to be a human if he really wants to stay alive so much. Humans live short lives, it would truly make more sense for one of them to be obsessed with survival.

However is you make him human you have to keep him a vampire-spawn. Thralls age and die, and Astarion served Cazzy for 200 years. Thralls are not actually undead and they must receive blood from the master vampire every week or they lose all their powers. Astarion is going to hang out with us for far longer than that.

So if you make him human he must stay a spawn.

Fair enough. My original objection and reflection was that you could make him human (with no change to his vamp status) and not have to change a single line of dialogue. This is the easiest adjustment you could make.

To make him an Elf-thrall you would have to tweak the dialogue slightly to make it explicit that he was just a servant and not a vamp himself. It would be also a plus if his “elf-hood” was a factor.

To make him a human-thrall, you need to tweak the story so that he has been in servitude for a couple decades vs centuries.

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You're certainly discussing about Astarion and his vampirism, but I'm interested... What about Cas? I mean his master ALSO ELF (or a half-elf???). And have bread btw idk why...

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These topics are exactly the ones showing how people just love to complain.
C'mon now, you can't be a roleplayer and be incapable of imagining a character outside of the general background description of its class. Besides, the Player's Handbook specifies that most of the rogues are low-life criminals, not all of them.

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Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.

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