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I believe that we should have an option during the start of a new campaign, if we want to have limited arrows, with a possibility of recovering them from defeated enemies. Same goes for long resting. This way, both sides are happy - hardcore rpg fans and a bit more chill casual gamers.

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A melee character needs only a weapon to do damage - period. The amount of damage is defined by the weapon.

A ranger character would, by your desire, need a weapon - which again defines the damage - and then on top of that normal ammunition, which adds exactly nothing to damage, therefor placing limitations on ranger weapons that do not exist for melee.

Larian has placed limitations on all ammo that causes ADDITIONAL damage, over and beyond that defined by the weapon - thus placing it on an equal level with melee type weapons.

Personally, I find this to be balanced, fair, and appropriate.

If you want to place limitations on ranged - must have a fresh, normal arrow for each use, then how about similar limitations on melee - must re-oil and clean your melee weapon between every swing - requiring a fresh oily rag for each cleaning. I'm betting you aren't in favor of that one.

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Originally Posted by Anfindel
If you want to place limitations on ranged - must have a fresh, normal arrow for each use, then how about similar limitations on melee - must re-oil and clean your melee weapon between every swing - requiring a fresh oily rag for each cleaning. I'm betting you aren't in favor of that one.
I find this rather ridiculous. No one would do this with a melee weapon, you would die. During a fight you would not go and retrieve your arrows, you would die, you might be able to use some of the arrows the enemy shot at you though. After the fight has ended you would clean your weapons, retrieve usable arrows, etc.

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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I totally agree. Management is something I like in RPG and ammo management is something else to think about when you prepare your next journey.

But this is an unpopular opinion.
Players like having so powerfull magical bows/crossbows at the beginning of the game.

Originally Posted by Eugerome
Limiting ammo is tedious in PnP and in video games. BG3 is not a survival game, so why bother.

BG1/2, Solasta, Wasteland, XCOM,... aren't survival games...

BG1&2 had weapons with the unlimited ammo property
It was so convenient that eveyrone went for those weapons as a default because dealing with ammo sucks.

Speak for yourself wink

BG1/2 had A FEW interresting items with unlimited ammo (1 or maybe 2)... not every single one.

That's exactly why they were interresting.
Powerfull >< Convenient

Last edited by Maximuuus; 04/01/21 06:22 AM.
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nah - in pen and paper campaigns and solasta both (and even in a few action rpgs, but that's besides the point) arrows have been limited - if im a rogue or ranger and i haven't been paying attention, or just ran out of arrows, I loot someone for a couple quickly or go melee. As a ranger or rogue should have both weapon sets, otherwise what's the point of more than one weapon set? Also, normally if i have that limitation, so do the enemies - they can't just shoot arrows forever either. And c'mon - having to make sure you buy arrows and quiver limits is not the same as saying that you can't use a sword because its not oiled. Just trying to steer this to "more d&D" and less "arcade" or Divinity (which i like for what it is, but i don't want a d&d like divinity)

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In general I believe it is not a good idea to make normal, unspecial Arrows or Bolts a limited affair.
This will turn off a lot of players who want to play a Ranger, or generally a physical ranged build.
Not the type of dude to say something like this but

" We are playing Baldurs Gate 3. Not 'Archer Simulator'. "

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Realism of tedium does not a better fantasy RPG make.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Speak for yourself wink
Take your own advice.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
BG1/2 had A FEW interresting items with unlimited ammo (1 or maybe 2)... not every single one.
BG2 alone has 5 ranged weapons with unlmiited ammo property.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
That's exactly why they were interresting.
Speak for yourself wink They were more convenient then interesting, given how you needed +5 weapons to damage high level enemies.

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I think unlimited normal ammo is fine.

- BG3 is not a survival game or a realistic combat simulation.
- Unlike BG1+2 you do not have limited inventory slots and arrows have little weight and arrows were cheap in BG1+2 ( one coin for a stack of regular ammo). Players would just load their inventory with tons of arrows.
- BG2 had so many weapons with infinite ammo that after some time every char would have such a weapon. They were a high priority for me because ammo management is boring.
- Crafting tons of arrows and farming materials for them is just boring.
- casters have infinite cantrips, melee chars can swing their weapon infinitely and only ranged chars have a limited basic action ???
Normal attacks or cantrips would be the default option, especially if we assume that you could not rest after every encounter.

PS: There was one game I quit because of ammo management, MotB.
I created an archer for the OC and I found a bow with infinite ammo, everything is fine.
I imported this char to MotB and there you lose all equipment. The cheapest arrows you could get were +3.
My char used huge amounts of ammo every fight ( 4 base attacks + rapid shot + multi shot + haste ) which made me spend huge amounts of money.
I quit because filling my whole inventory with ammo and spending all my money for ammo, refilling ammo slots after every fight and going back to shop after a few fights was not fun.
I finished this great game with several other chars.


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Hey - you don't like the proposal? fine. but your response could go to anything:

if someone says:

rests shouldn't be unlimited! this is 5e!
We are playing Baldurs Gate 3 not rest simulator

low level goblins shouldn't all have throwables!
We are playing Baldurs Gate 3 not goblin simulator

and that could go on and on - you don't like it? Thats great. You'd like a more arcade style of play. I want as close to pen & paper and 5e as i can get. Thanks for your input

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I'm not saying that you would need to craft arrows, they could be easily bought from shopkeepers or whatever, but like in pen and paper, its something you have to manage if you use a ranged character, just like if you have a strength based character who carries a javelin to throw at range. If he throws it, he's got to switch to his melee gear until he can pick it up, whether that's mid fight or end of fight.

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Yeah but I doN't want to deal with ammo at all. It's just an extra annoyance to deal with like invertory space or weight limit on how much I can carry.

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I'm pretty happy about the unlimited arrows, personally.
Combat in this game is tricky enough without having to worry about running out of arrows.

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so this is kind of off - topic, but it sounds like you don't like weight limits per character either?

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Im for limitation as well - even if it means adding to weight or having to spend cash on purchasing more - it brings a little more realism to the game (yes I know its a fantasy game ....) if everything else impacts weight arrows & quarrels should too.

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If i remember well, Kingmaker has a toggle now to turn off weight limitation, they kept the weight rule but added this toggle to satisfy both camps of people. usually things like weight, ammo and durability divides people - so does the somewhat related crafting. if these are implemented, they have to be careful these can be skipped by people who doesnt care about them or get frustrated by them even. I personally like these because with a 100+ hours game i like if the game gives me more complex systems to learn and master outside of combat (i think RPGs are not just combat simulators) also these can provide ground to some interesting utility spells and actions to repair, create resources (and i think Larian could shine with this with their engine), but i understand thats not everybody's cake.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
I've played in PnP games where we track ammo and games where we don't. I understand the rationale behind it, but unless you're playing a wilderness survival game where resources are scarce, it mostly just feels tedious.

People don't tend to bother with things like sharpening and oiling swords or repairing armor in the game - we just assume that characters know how to maintain their gear and abstract away the boring part. I feel like ensuring that you have enough ammo for ranged weapons falls into that category unless there is something about getting enough ammo that is supposed to be a challenge.

From what we've seen of BG3 (especially with the portals), it doesn't seem like getting your hands on ammo would be even remotely difficult.


That is unless you are playing one of the Witcher series of games where you have to sharpen your weapons or repair your armor. Which I'll have to admit that I didn't mind at all.

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That was my favourite part of the witcher games. planning ahead, sharpening swords, making sure i have enough resources on me (like bombs), repairing armor and even alchemy was more meaningful in witcher 2 i think (3 has a mod made by one of the devs where these elements are even more meaningful).
Larians motto is basically that we give you multiple systems to overcome obstacles, i would like to see more of these alternative systems added in their games (even if these are skippable for normal difficulty runs). people are to have different ways to beat challenges so they can roleplay by their actions as well

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Originally Posted by Mat22
That was my favourite part of the witcher games. planning ahead, sharpening swords, making sure i have enough resources on me (like bombs), repairing armor and even alchemy was more meaningful in witcher 2 i think (3 has a mod made by one of the devs where these elements are even more meaningful).
Larians motto is basically that we give you multiple systems to overcome obstacles, i would like to see more of these alternative systems added in their games (even if these are skippable for normal difficulty runs). people are to have different ways to beat challenges so they can roleplay by their actions as well


I fully agree with the Witcher series it made you think and plan ahead do I have enough sharpening stones, armor repair kits, etc which made the games fun and interesting as well. And as for the various potions for which you could make that were beneficial.

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I found armor/weapon maintenance in the Witcher games pretty annoying. There were kits everywhere, so they weren't hard to get ahold of; there was no challenge to equipment maintenance that might have made it interesting. Using them is trivial, so that's not interesting. The worst thing that happens is a sword might go red and be a little less useful in the middle of a fight, that's barely interesting. But you had to lug the kits around, so they took up a little space in your inventory. That's also not interesting. It's all just extra work for no payoff. It doesn't create interesting decisions. It'd be a touch different if neglecting your gear meant you were at risk of it irreparably breaking (and there weren't 100 other swords out there to replace the broken one).

In a D&D game, my main reason for playing (and I totally recognize that different people gravitate towards it for different reasons; that's totally valid - this little rant is about what I'm looking for) is to engage with an interesting story and make decisions about my role in that story. Combat can be a part of that story, but it's a small part. For me, any systems in the game should serve engagement with the story or be removed.

In BG3, almost everything related to the inventory is superfluous - it's extra work for minimal payoff. Looting a thousand containers and bodies is boring. Carrying a thousand little bits of rope and silverware and bones and candles and other junk back to any merchant in the game to sell them is boring (not to mention, why would any of these merchants buy this junk from you?!). Looting every single weapon from every enemy you defeat is boring (and extremely unreasonable). Keeping track of basic consumables when there is no scarcity of those items is boring. Crafting systems where you're just collecting ingredients and following a recipe and there's no creativity involved is boring (I don't see this ever working well in a video game, but it's great on tabletop).

The combat part of a D&D game is primarily interesting because of how powerful and skilled your character is - it's not about all the junk you find along the way. I say we dramatically downsize the inventory: say you have whatever you're wearing/wielding and then you can carry 5 things. Might be a spare weapon. Might be a couple of potions. That weird puzzle box or some spooky tome that you found. That one +1 arrow that you found sitting on a shelf in a shop. Abstract away all of the mundane stuff and just focus on a few really precious things that you might find out in the world. That leaves a lot more room for your character to be awesome.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
I found armor/weapon maintenance in the Witcher games pretty annoying. There were kits everywhere, so they weren't hard to get ahold of; there was no challenge to equipment maintenance that might have made it interesting. Using them is trivial, so that's not interesting. The worst thing that happens is a sword might go red and be a little less useful in the middle of a fight, that's barely interesting. But you had to lug the kits around, so they took up a little space in your inventory. That's also not interesting. It's all just extra work for no payoff. It doesn't create interesting decisions. It'd be a touch different if neglecting your gear meant you were at risk of it irreparably breaking (and there weren't 100 other swords out there to replace the broken one).

In a D&D game, my main reason for playing (and I totally recognize that different people gravitate towards it for different reasons; that's totally valid - this little rant is about what I'm looking for) is to engage with an interesting story and make decisions about my role in that story. Combat can be a part of that story, but it's a small part. For me, any systems in the game should serve engagement with the story or be removed.

In BG3, almost everything related to the inventory is superfluous - it's extra work for minimal payoff. Looting a thousand containers and bodies is boring. Carrying a thousand little bits of rope and silverware and bones and candles and other junk back to any merchant in the game to sell them is boring (not to mention, why would any of these merchants buy this junk from you?!). Looting every single weapon from every enemy you defeat is boring (and extremely unreasonable). Keeping track of basic consumables when there is no scarcity of those items is boring. Crafting systems where you're just collecting ingredients and following a recipe and there's no creativity involved is boring (I don't see this ever working well in a video game, but it's great on tabletop).

The combat part of a D&D game is primarily interesting because of how powerful and skilled your character is - it's not about all the junk you find along the way. I say we dramatically downsize the inventory: say you have whatever you're wearing/wielding and then you can carry 5 things. Might be a spare weapon. Might be a couple of potions. That weird puzzle box or some spooky tome that you found. That one +1 arrow that you found sitting on a shelf in a shop. Abstract away all of the mundane stuff and just focus on a few really precious things that you might find out in the world. That leaves a lot more room for your character to be awesome.

I agree.
I play games ( mostly RPGs ) for story, exploration and combat.
Game mechanics should be there to support the story and create interesting decissions, not to add annoying and boring stuff because it is realistic.
Regarding ammo, things would be different in a setting where ranged weapons and magic are rare and powerful. To give an example with todays technology, when the streets are full with gangsters armed with knives it makes sense to spend lots of efford to get a gun and a few bullits.

I do not play survival games, so my best example is system shock 2. Limited inventory, few resources, degrading weapons and respawning enemies made the player feel vulnerable and paranoid which adds a lot to the atmoshere, unlike many other RPG or action games where the player is supposed to feel powerful.


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