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This discussion of armor keeps getting back to realism, but our heroes' equipment, and its aesthetic, is more a story-telling convention. This is a narrative fantasy adventure, not a medieval historical combat sim.

Last edited by Sozz; 13/01/21 09:41 PM.
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I would like to add it my absolute love for the idea of just being able to do the entire campaign in civilian clothing smile (Bilbo baggins inspired outfit)
I kinda hope we arent limited to just armour.

As much as I love how they have already designed the armours in the current game I cant wait to see more
The designs are so incredible so far laugh

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Amazingly, science proved many, many years ago that physical differences between men and woman are actual facts--not myths. The science of genetics, for instance, proves it indisputably. Differences in apparel for men and women merely reflect the proven scientific realities of the genetic differences between the sexes. Do not expect to see maternity gowns for men any time soon, etc...;) However, gowns for big, fat, slobs may look like maternity gowns when worn by men, but I can assure you this is not the case...;)

Last edited by Waltc; 13/01/21 10:43 PM.

I'm never wrong about anything, and so if you see an error in any of my posts you will know immediately that I did not write it...;)
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Originally Posted by Waltc
Amazingly, science proved many, many years ago that physical differences between men and woman are actual facts--not myths. The science of genetics, for instance, proves it indisputably. Differences in apparel for men and women merely reflect the proven scientific realities of the genetic differences between the sexes. Do not expect to see maternity gowns for men any time soon, etc...;) However, gowns for big, fat, slobs may look like maternity gowns when worn by men, but I can assure you this is not the case...;)

I don't think anyone at any point in this thread ever mentioned having problems with attire taking a form that follows biological needs of sexes. If you want to prove that every difference mentioned in this thread serves an important function from a bioloical point of view however, I am all ears. lul

Last edited by Kadajko; 13/01/21 11:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
And of course Boudica. While there are reasons for a sexual division of labor in hunter gather societies -- pregnancy, lactation -- these are societies that have flipped the sexual divisions and cultures where the divisions are fairly close to horizontal with men taking care of children while women hunt.

And there is a chicken - egg issue with European history. So much that history is about the imperial rule and the aftermath of empire. Which is why fantasy settings always have a Nethril / Myth Drannor like setting. Why did the Romans invest so much energy and resources into crushing Boudica? was She was an ally, she was tithing . . . and the answer was the Roman were fighting for patriarchy. Boudica and her daughters were a threat to Roman law itself and the notion that property is controlled by the father and that all authority comes from the father.

What we don't know is how many other matriarchies and gender horizontal cultures were eliminated by the various empires.

Very interesting, I didn't know that.
Originally Posted by Sordak
again, exceptions to the rule.
also the latter was a leader, wether or not she participated from the front, who knows. also "Charioteer" isnt a DnD class.
Joan of arc was basically a glorified figurehead

>Romans were fighting for patriarchy

listen to yourself. You realy think the mightiest empire in europe for most of its history bothered that some barbarians were ruled by a woman?
Romans foguht for conquest. For political and economic advantages.
Do you understand how different barbarian law was to roman law? And how many non female led barbarian tribes were subjugated by the romans? Despite them beeing "allies" before?
Pretty much all the gauls suffered this fate.

Its also not like the Romans fell over themselves to invade scythia to get rid of the *actual* women warriors, rather than boudicca who was a family of women in a male dominated culture (the celtic one)

>Matriarchies were eliminated by various empires
well, i have a different conclusions as to why that is.
History is brutal and only the strong cultures survive.

Its a bit sad that in our era, some folk still believe man to be superior to woman. I know girl that could break you like a twig, and other that do martial art that could floor you in five seconds, even though they probably weight 40 less pounds than you. But whatever, keep being delusional.


Originally Posted by Waltc
Amazingly, science proved many, many years ago that physical differences between men and woman are actual facts--not myths. The science of genetics, for instance, proves it indisputably. Differences in apparel for men and women merely reflect the proven scientific realities of the genetic differences between the sexes. Do not expect to see maternity gowns for men any time soon, etc...;) However, gowns for big, fat, slobs may look like maternity gowns when worn by men, but I can assure you this is not the case...;)

You should be more specific. What are you talking about?

Everyone knows that man and woman have a few differences . Women have breast and men don't, wow, what a surprise !! I needed genetic to show me that !

Doesn't mean woman can't fight or take care of themselves. We also know that man have , on usual, more muscle fiber than women. But how does it matter? Black skinned people are proven to have more muscular fiber than white men, on average. Should we call white man unable to fight because of that? because that's the same kind of comparison. Minor difference that don't really show or mean anything.

Last edited by Hachina; 13/01/21 11:19 PM.

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Armour should be the exact same on both, just over different bodies. Unless the armour is seriously magically with the enchantment that makes it change style mentioned in the description, aint no excuse for the dramatic changes.
Armour changing so it fits, sure, armour handwaving so its a completely different style for no reason? immersion breaking and prevents your squad from having a uniform style.

Just a sidenote, can we please limit discussions to the game not personally held views about the place of women or presuming science. Thank you.
the 'science' about strength muscle differences are all things so minor it only comes up in bodybuilders and comparing adventurers, class would really be the bigger issue i.e. fighter v wizard. As for the rest, some men do have X and some women Y. Just, can we stop with discussions that will clearly go no where and only serve to make this forum unwelcome, hostile to women and prevent discussion of the actual issue. I.e. armour that looks cool on Wyll looks lame on SH

From a purely gameplay discussion, its annoying when you find some sweet armour put it on your PC and it looks completely different on you, also sucks? when you get four copies of cool armour and go hey, uniform time but oh it's different cut, colour and materials.. boring. Having it look the same for everyone avoids that. No need to bring sexism into it.

Last edited by Starshine; 13/01/21 11:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak
They didnt just fight unarmored, they foguht butt naked, they believed it gave them the blessing of their gods, who would view them as courages.
Which is not to say that Mainland celts lacked armor equipment, compared to their germanic neighbours, they didnt lack Iron (Noricum was pretty much where rome would get all its iron from later on) or the techniques to forge proper armor (Roman helmets for example were a Gaulish design)

They chose to do so
And it terrified the Romans


TL;DR: READ

And here how fighting naked turned out
Quote
Very terrifying too were the appearance and the gestures of the naked warriors in front, 8 all in the prime of life, and finely built men, and all in the leading companies richly adorned with gold torques and armlets. 9 The sight of them indeed dismayed the Romans, but at the same time the prospect of winning such spoils made them twice as keen for the fight. 30 1 But when the javelineers advanced, as is their usage, from the ranks of the Roman legions and began to hurl their javelins in well-aimed volleys, the Celts in the rear ranks indeed were well protected by their trousers and cloaks, 2 but it fell out far otherwise than they had expected with the naked men in front, and they found themselves in a very difficult and helpless predicament. 3 For the Gaulish shield does not cover the whole body; so that their nakedness was a disadvantage, and the bigger they were5 the better chance had the missiles of going home. 4 At length, unable to drive off the javelineers owing to the distance and the hail of javelins, and reduced to the utmost distress and perplexity, some of them, in their impotent rage, rushed wildly on the enemy and sacrificed their lives, while others, retreating step by step on the ranks of their comrades, threw them into disorder by their display of faint-heartedness. 5 Thus was the spirit of the Gaesatae broken down by the javelineers;
TL;DR, they were easily killed.

But Rome fighting for patriarchy? Thats utter nonsense.

Last edited by Ixal; 13/01/21 11:28 PM.
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@Hachina

They just don't understand that people can be different. In their mind ''Men and women tend to'' = ''Men and women are''. People that behave differently as individuals are called exceptions.

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@Kadajko

You're right... it's a bit sad IMHO .

Also, I believe its a cultural thing. I may be wrong on that, but I think women weren't fighting as much as men during past centuries because it was contrary to tradition . Now we see more and more soldier women and they perform just as well as men.


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Forgotten realms is explicitly a world with even ratios of military service and adventurers anyway so it makes sense the standard military gear/armour would be made to the same standard for everyone, no weird differences for women but same concerns, cover important parts protect from sword, going into both

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Holy Christ....

This is a fantasy game. The REALITIES of human biology between Men and Women are 100% irrelevant in the game world. The REALITIES in the difference between Fast and Slow Twitch muscles are also, irrelevant.

This is a fantasy game, where monsters need slaying, people need saving, and spells need casting.

Why are there different appearance between the same gear?

Same reason we had it in WoW. Same reason we see it in Japanese RPG. Same reason we see it in Fantasy art going back decades to the formative era for what became 'fantasy art'.

Petition for options? Ask for a way to modify? ABSOLUTELY.

But I can tell there are some intelligent people here dancing around the reality of the WHY when it's not particularly relevant.

And no, the historical accuracy of women fighting during the Roman Empire era, is not relevant to the creation of Bikini Chain Mail, or Conan fighting in a Banana Hammock.

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Originally Posted by Scribe
Same reason we had it in WoW.

Since you mentioned WoW, not going to lie, that is one of the reasons I couldn't get into the game, the demorphism there is just uncanny.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Scribe
Same reason we had it in WoW.

Since you mentioned WoW, not going to lie, that is one of the reasons I couldn't get into the game, the demorphism there is just uncanny.

Oh its some of the worst you'll see, and that one actually swings both ways. Certain robes for my Undead Male Warlock? Big sad compared to Female versions lol.

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I read in some posts here, that women warrior are unrealistic. Did someone throw in the "viking" card yet ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden
Quote
There are few historical attestations that Viking Age women took part in warfare. The Byzantine historian John Skylitzes records that women fought in battle when Sviatoslav I of Kiev attacked the Byzantines in Bulgaria in 971

But just to go back on the game - BG3 and this thread.

When taking a step back and look at this 13 14 pages long thread - we have these 3 categories:

1. Female are just fine to have armor with legs open and buttcheek, and I want to see more skin - Male are badass and it's ok that they are covered for protection the matching the D&D fantasy theme;
2. Female are just fine to have armor with legs open and buttcheek - Male should match the female style - make them the same (I'm this category);
3. Cover both from head to toe.

It nails down to that.

The historic conversations around armors, in this thread, are a justification for the 2nd category to make it ok for men to have something like 2000 years ago Roman and bla .. or 5k ago Spartanand bla .. and we end up side tracking on that.

If this forum platform had the ability to spin a poll, I would probably add the "I don't care" as 4th category and let it run a few days until it stabilize and observe the results. The only glitch is how you make it so people only vote once. But this subject could be close reasonably fast. And that would be it - the feedback.

I will have quite a laugh if in patch 4 we all lose our pants smile (and then add em back with a hot fix - I dare you Larian smile )

Last edited by Starlights; 14/01/21 01:10 AM.

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lol your signature Starlights PERFECTLY reflects this thread.

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Originally Posted by Scribe
lol your signature Starlights PERFECTLY reflects this thread.
yes, but since you mentioning it, who's who ? wink


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No judgment here. You dont get to 14 pages without it being present though. laugh

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Personally, if the males are just as objectified, I don't mind. It's more jarring whenever you see females get exposed skin but males are covered from head to toes. It doesn't mean stripper looking, it's just making it look fashionable. It's a fantasy game at the end of the day.

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See, I dont think its jarring, especially with the images of the armour I've seen here, at all.

Because I grew up playing Fantasy Games, reading Fantasy Books, and seeing Fantasy art.

I dont see a single thing, even the one called 'trashy' on the first page that is at all shocking, surprising, or jarring, because...I grew up with stuff like this.

[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

Right, Wrong, Indifferent, I do not care, but to be surprised? That's just the format.

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Originally Posted by Scribe
even the one called 'trashy' on the first page

I explained on page 8 why the armor on the first page is more trashy than your example.

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