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To catch up with some lore and the past, is it worth it to start BG1/BG2 while BG3 progress with patches and content ?

Last edited by Starlights; 15/01/21 12:32 AM.

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If you havent played them and dont mind the very different graphics? Absolutely. The 'full experience' is long, but BG 2 especially is simply a fantastic experience and story.

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Originally Posted by Starlights
To catch up with some lore and the past, is it worth it to start BG1/BG2 while BG3 progress with patches and content ?
No, and yes.
There's no immediately obvious connection to them and Baldur's Gate III beyond the overall theme of 'how much are you willing to sacrifice for power'. There are references to 'gorians ward' and minature giant space hamsters in some books, but nothing else is mentioned and the description of the protagonist from BG1 is very deliberately nothing beyond "They existed".


There's going to be a bit of 'culture shock' with the rules however (2nd edition that they run off has a 'low is good, high is bad' system, so your armour class drops when you put on plate mail!). I'm also not blind to how western rpgs have moved on; inter party dialogue is basically non existent, and while the sprites and maps have a charm, they and the interface definitely show their age.

I think it's worth it because I enjoy the characters and the story is genuinely interesting, the characters are memorable, and the gameplay itself still holds up. It doesn't seem necessary however, and unlike Bethesda with Fallout 3 vs fallout 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate III isn't going for a fundemental shift of game types. If you're interested in games from a design point of view, I would absolutely reccomend you try it, for a game on it's own, a classic, I'd also reccomend it, but there's no obvious connection to Baldur's Gate III, so I'd skip it if you're only thinking of it for that.

If you do pull the trigger, I reccomend you try and avoid Beamdog's version-while some of the things they did were great, my understanding is they also added entirely new bugs.

Last edited by Some_Twerp753; 15/01/21 12:55 AM.
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Disagree on the advice to avoid Beamdog. It's difficult to go back to vanilla after playing the EEs. There is one annoying bug with pathfinding where you will get stuck in a one place for time but otherwise, yes, bg2 is the best RPG made.

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I would play through it in Neverwinter Nights 2 engine if I were you, Baldur's Gates engine imo did not pass the test of time.

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It's gonna be tough for new players to get into the old Baldur's Gate games, some of my friends couldn't get into due to graphics, combat, or the story structure. I would say that you should play the game with an open mind. In term of story, a quick wiki for anything you miss is enough, but Baldur's Gate 3 is very self contained. They intentionally set the game in a distant future to reduce the burden of older games have on the story.

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Not a huge fan of BG1, but BG2 is simply stellar.

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BG1 and BG2 are both great. If you forced me to choose, I'd say BG2 is better (mostly on the strength of the villain) but both have very good stories. My recommendation would be to start with BG1 and play straight through.

EE is fine. "Seige of Dragonspear" is an "add-in" that Beamdog created fairly recently, and is not part of the original Bhalspawn trilogy (which was BG1, BG2, and BG2: Throne of Bhaal). I don't have an opinion on it because I haven't played it, but the time skip between 1 and 2 is part of the original Baldur's Gate experience.

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Get alot of mods. There are plenty lists out on google, but the banter packs and fixes are a must and then, companions and quests as you like.
BG1/2 is great, but the mods make them genius


Minthara is the best character and she NEEDS to be recruitable if you side with the grove!
Also- I support the important thread in the suggestions: Let everyone in the Party Speak
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Not unless you're a fan of older games in general. Someone who grew up with 3-D gaming consoles and is used to RPGs with more refined gameplay probably won't end up enjoying them very much. We're talking about a span of 20 years after all.

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My suggestion is looking up how the gameplay is (i.e. a retrospective or Let's Play) and see if it is for you. Playing through the entire series is quite the investment in time, and I'm not sure if the game (aged as it is), is for everybody.

I have very fond memories of the series, but there are so many fantastic games out there I always have to consider the opportunity cost.

If the gameplay doesn't look appealing to you, I'm not sure if the story/lore is worth it to play through, given the length. I'm sure there's some YouTube video out there that sums up the plot/lore in case you're curious.

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That there is even some equivocating going on is distressing, Shadows of Amn is often ranked one of the best computer games of all time, it certainly comes in at No. 1 for me. Go play it, they'll probably be giving it away for a song in the run up to BG:3, go play.

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Originally Posted by Starshine
Get alot of mods. There are plenty lists out on google, but the banter packs and fixes are a must and then, companions and quests as you like.
BG1/2 is great, but the mods make them genius
The restored content mods maybe not at first, but certainly the fixes/tweaks mods.

One of the reasons I can come back to BG:2 is because there was only so much content you could really get in one go, this also makes the modding community's contributions fit in easily, though the writing is sometimes a little amateurish.

Last edited by Sozz; 15/01/21 07:56 AM.
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I'd say yes. Both games are fairly good. I used the companion banter packs for BG1, because there, companions have not a lot (if any) banter. And the tweak and fix mods are fairly good. Other than that, I wouldn't use a lot of mods on the first playthrough. Later maybe Unfinished Business, which restores some quests.

You find some elittle nods to those games in BG3 - so far I found mentions of some companions (Dynaheir, Faldorn, Minsc for example) and events.


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BG1 is very much an old school game in that it is very unstructured and you're supposed to "go find yourself something to do" without it being a sandbox in the way modern games are. This might feel like you have no idea what to do when you start playing it.

BG2 is structured much more like modern games and quests make themselves known to a much higher degree. It is likely to be much more approachable and I would start there instead of with BG1. It's the higher quality production of the two anyway.


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I find personally that once you've committed yourself to playing an hour or so of it, you don't mind the graphics, and instead become immersed in the story and setting of the game. I would also say, that BGII is a far greater game since it has more focused story, and in my opinion, more memorable and unique main quests, subquests and characters, and it also has a more serious tone than the previous game. Though BGI is a good game, I do really dislike the amount of goofy "Monty Python-esque" NPCs you encounter in BGI, since I find it really it detracts you from the setting of Forgotten Realms, but BGI was BioWare's first venture into the FR setting.

I can also say, that I personally started with BG2 and completed it without ever having completed BG1 (though I've played a sizeable chunk of it), and I had a great time, and I didn't find myself lost at all with references regarding what happened in the first game, since everything of significance is pretty much explained by the NPCs. Also BG2 has a different antagonist and is set in a different part of the Realms, so it is really accommodating to anyone who hasn't played the first game.

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I started with BG1, but at the time I was so young that I didn't know any English and was also too frightened by the vast black unknown area on the map that I basically never left the Candlekeep Inn. BG2 was the first of the two I actually played a lot of when it released a few years later. I ended up going back to BG1 some additional years after though.


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I tried, but honestly you'll need a lot of love for outdated gameplay mechanics. I drop it up because the mechanics, interfaces, and other things like this just annoyed me.


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The graphics themselves are a bit outdated by modern standards, the games use sprites rather than models. The aesthetics however hold up and are top tier still. Story, music, atmosphere etc is all worth it in my opinion.
The game mechanics are a bit aged but... I think it is closer to 5e than 3rd edition is to 5e. The mechanics do hold up still, I think. Sure, it is not as good as what we have now but once you get used to it, it does work for a CRPG.

The first game is based around story buildup and exploration, small side quests and more humour (almost the sort of thing you can expect in Divinity: Original Sin games) and there are fun little easter eggs. BG2 becomes more storyfocussed, and somewhat more linear, though with plenty of sidequests still (Some short and sweet, others involving longer stories and their own seperate areas with dungeons).

I would say check out some videos with gameplay really. If you can get past the graphics themselves, and the 2d style with sprites, the story, aesthetics, adventure-experience etc makes all up for that and I would definatly recommend.

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thanks guys for all the advises, it's great and will give it a shot. I will finally understand who's this guy "minsc" that you've been talking about.

Originally Posted by Kadajko
I would play through it in Neverwinter Nights 2 engine if I were you, Baldur's Gates engine imo did not pass the test of time.
ah ! Just when I thought - ok I got this - I see that curve ball coming. I did some digging and NWN2 can run baldurs gate 1 & 2 with a mod name "reloaded". Is it what you are referring to ?


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I don't have any experience with running Baldur's Gate in the Neverwinter Nights 2 engine (maybe its fantastic, maybe its not) but I really do not think that it is necessary. Baldur's Gate certainly has a dated UI and dated graphics, but Neverwinter Nights 2 is hardly recent... and Baldur's Gate is very playable even if you skip the Enhanced Edition.

In any case, you will need to purchase Baldur's Gate (I assume) even if you play it in NWN 2, so why not fire it up in vanilla first to see how it goes?

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You know the song from Queen "I want it all" ? smile

I thought you will get the good story from BG1/2 and the better graphics (it seems) from NWN2, with price of complexity. Anyway, I might end up following your advise - "vanilla". thanks


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BG1/2 are the best RPGs ever made.

Of course they're old. Of course it's not the same beauty as standard modern games. Of course some mechanics are tedious.

But those games are the most legendary cRPG ever created. So yes, launch them and play.

BG3 probably won't have anything to do with them but as a gamer, it's always interresting to discover the best and to try to understand what makes those games so special.

Then you could explain to Larian because I guess they didn't understand grin

Last edited by Maximuuus; 15/01/21 05:45 PM.

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I would 100% play them if you have not before, they remain the benchmark for RPGs, top down or otherwise. I would go against what a previous posts said and deffo play the EEs (enhanced editions) if only because as a BG1-2 noob the graphical changes, UI and zoom in and out function, and ease of installation just make them a much more pleasant experience if you are used to modern games, and the standardization of the BG2 rules into BG1 without needing to faff around with mods is good for a beginner. Sure go ahead and play the original after, if you want to see how the game has changed so much but if you've never played before I would always say go EE - there are some bugs, but the original is full of bugs too, just different ones.

I would also start out with Baldurs Gate 1:
firstly, if you are not familiar with the system, starting out with BG2 at level 7 can be daunting if you want to play a caster class while starting out at lvl 1 in BG1 allows you to learn as you go, and going through from level 1 to level 40 through the whole saga is the ultimate noob to god story - nothing has ever really come close.

secondly, the story is best experienced all the way through, and BG1 often gets a bad rap when actually it is my favorite of the two with some of the best dungeons ever designed and a really tight plot while still allowing a huge amount of exploration and dungeon crawling.

thirdly, its just a great game, different to BG2 but not any worse imo.

In regard to mods, I 100% would play without mods - you get a lot more appreciation for both the game and the mods if you are familiar with the game without mods before you start installing a bunch of stuff you don't really understand about. If you only ever play with mods you will never know what is added by a mod and what is not. banter packs and the like are an aquired taste and vary in quality and imo you want to know what is "game" and what is "mod"


I also would not discount Siege of Dragonspear offhand, because:
1. it shows how the infinity engine can really be pushed on modern hardware
2. it looks beautiful, with these really stunning environments
3. it allows you to use all those toys you picked up in BG1 to fight some huge battles.
4. It has some pretty good AI, far better than BG1 or BG2 - the developers took some notes from a popular strategy-AI-difficulty mod (sword coast stratagems) to make some enjoyably challenging battles.
5. It has some of the very best dungeons in an IE game.

It's not that it doesn't have its issues but the good parts of it are really good imo. You don't ever have to play it again if you don't like it, but I don't think opinions on the internet should deprive you of the stuff it does at god tier (see above)


imo, just pick up the EEs and give them a go as is. Play the originals and/or install mods if you find that you like them.

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As an addition if you like the dungeons and combat in SoD (As well as the more interesting creatures, and the better visuals) I would suggest picking up IWD (EE). SoD basically borrows a lot from that game and while it is more combat focussed, it does this -really- well and has even better dungeons in my opinion (And the best out of all infinity engine games)

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To me, complaining about the graphics is like saying you can't get into older Final Fantasy or Mario games because of the pixel art, things don't start really looking dated to me until they started making things 3D. Like Popeye-Cloud Strife

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Originally Posted by Sozz
To me, complaining about the graphics is like saying you can't get into older Final Fantasy or Mario games because of the pixel art, things don't start really looking dated to me until they started making things 3D. Like Popeye-Cloud Strife

Some old games are playable with old graphics, some are not (with a heavy dose of IMO of course). I still enjoy Might and Magic 4 through 7 even with the mid-90's graphics, but I find Daggerfall (which was "new" compared to MM7) to be basically unplayable now. Baldur's Gate is definitely on the playable end of that spectrum.

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I’m not particularly beholden to nostalgia, lots of games I used to love are completely unplayable to me, but I find that BG, like many pixel games, has aged quite well. The Neverwinter Nights games have not. NWN2 has the unfortunate problem of having 3 different camera options which are all equally terrible. There might be some mods that fix it, but I would say for that alone these games can be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
NWN2 has the unfortunate problem of having 3 different camera options which are all equally terrible.
for all the issues with BG3, at least it doesn't have NWN2s sadistic camera

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What some people are reportedly doing is taking their ancient BG & BG2 CD's and crushing them down into a fine pulp, putting them into a corn-cob pipe, and smoking them using an acetylene torch while waiting on Patch #4 for the BG3 EA!

I must strenuously advise against doing this, however--I mean, only if you are up for a lung transplant should you do this!

Instead...read a book, or watch a movie, or get a job and earn some dough while you're waiting! Beats a lung transplant any day, imo.


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just make sure to not get the beamdog version

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Originally Posted by Waltc
What some people are reportedly doing is taking their ancient BG & BG2 CD's and crushing them down into a fine pulp, putting them into a corn-cob pipe, and smoking them using an acetylene torch while waiting on Patch #4 for the BG3 EA!

I must strenuously advise against doing this, however--I mean, only if you are up for a lung transplant should you do this!

Instead...read a book, or watch a movie, or get a job and earn some dough while you're waiting! Beats a lung transplant any day, imo.
aahhh, I had quite a laugh reading you - thanks for that.


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Originally Posted by Sordak
just make sure to not get the beamdog version

The Beamdog version is probably simpler to install and use. They do add a bit (a few new NPC's and a few new quests to go with those NPC's) but the basic experience is mostly the same. The only real sin is that they changed the opening movie in BG1. That's not really forgivable, but it is at least forgettable.

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Don't watch Metropolis, it doesn't even have sound. Star Wars? Made in the 70s lol.

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Originally Posted by dwig
Originally Posted by Sordak
just make sure to not get the beamdog version

The Beamdog version is probably simpler to install and use. They do add a bit (a few new NPC's and a few new quests to go with those NPC's) but the basic experience is mostly the same. The only real sin is that they changed the opening movie in BG1. That's not really forgivable, but it is at least forgettable.

Not just the opening movie, they replace all of the original movies. This wouldn’t be so bad except that they replace them with poorly rendered static images that somehow look even worse than 90s CG.

This mod restores the originals.

https://www.moddb.com/games/baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition/addons/bgee-classic-movies

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Originally Posted by Sozz
To me, complaining about the graphics is like saying you can't get into older Final Fantasy or Mario games because of the pixel art, things don't start really looking dated to me until they started making things 3D. Like Popeye-Cloud Strife

It's not just the art, it's also the UI.


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BGEE is a bit like the Star Wars Special Editions of Baldur's Gate games. Instead of just fixing the game so it wouldn't crash, or just running BG1 using BG2's engine with UI/resolution updates with some QoL features, they also substantially changed a lot of the content and the art direction.

Fortunately its mostly additive and its pretty easy to pick out the 'Enhancements', though I agree the enhanced "movies" are pretty terrible and their enhanced portraits all blow. The portraits in particular just seem amateur, even by BG standards, and I can't help but wonder if I'd like the companions they added a bit more, if they'd just hired some better digital painters? Do yourself a favor and hunt down some portraits you like so you can sub them out. Even the original standard portraits of BG2 were rather disappointing, since they all look like Thomas Kinkade paintings with those garrish pink and gold pastels everywhere. But at least they had a consistent art style.

The first thing I did after installing BGEE was to download the old Icewind Dale portraits so I could use those for some of the BG NPCs instead. When the massive black studios peeps and justin sweet did the original icewind dale portraits they basically cribbed many of the 'character' ideas from BG1/2 for those. So there is an alt for pretty much every BG1/2 NPC in the standard IWD portraits. With Icewind Dale and its sequel they made an investment to hire some stronger concept artists to make the portraits there and it really shows.

Thankfully one of the coolest things about BG was that it made custom portraits, sound barks and ai scripts a thing. So there are a lot of them floating around after 2 decades, many much better than what came with the games initially or in the EE

Ps. I also liked Siege of Dragonspear and the Black Pits, but I kind of wish they'd kept their new stuff confined to those, or in seperate area maps for added content instead inserting it into the regular games in the familiar places. I liked Dorn (not so much the portrait, but he did fit a niche that was missing.) In BG2 the original game suffered from not having an Evil thief. I dont think we had any pure class or non kitted thiefs in BG2. Even Yoshimo was a bounty hunter. So I guess they added Hexxat, but she's pretty far from a pure class thief. They basically created a whole new thief kit just for her heheh.

But all in all, even with some enhancements I didnt dig, its still pretty solid and relatively cheap to pick up. A lot more conveniant than the old CDs or setting stuff up with TuTu/weidu. I still think the BG1 NPC project had a better slate of fan created content than BGEE provides. Its worth checking out I'd think if you like older games. I also agree that the 2d sprites of BG1/2 hold up a lot better than most early 3d rpg games hold up. Its a bit like the difference between watching 20th century traditional animation, stop motion, or analogue vfx vs early 21st century cgi. The former tend to hold up better and seem more timeless, whereas the latter tend to look immediately dated by the technology of the times.

Or again, to the initial analogy, like the difference between Return of the Jedi from 1983, vs Return of the Jedi Special Edition from 1997.

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Yeah, that UI they introduced later was a bad move, should have stuck with the original. But it's not horrible.

I don't think the EE changed the content much at all -- you can actually edit the ini to eliminate the EE NPCS. One line for each. Some the like <npc_name exists=0>

There were EE characters I didn't like and I'm just not interested in evil paths but the engine improvements were are substantial. I couldn't imagine going to back to the original pathfinding.

The thing you have to remember is that there was dogpile effect after the game got review bombed for (shock, horror) having a character who changed gender. Somehow that ruined some people's childhoods. So there were review-bombs by people who clearly hadn't played the game and then other jumped on the abuse train. It's just fun to get your kicks in when someone is down . . .

Which is sad because some haters ranting at computer screen ruined people's careers.

Don't get me wrong, I have my critiques of the company -- indeed I've been banned from the EE forums -- but the engine really was improved and the hand painted backgrounds have aged much better than, say, NWN1. (god that game is ugly)

Personally, I really like the Wild Mage NPC but have no use for the vampire, monk or blackguard. The bear is kinda funny.

Get it. I think I saw it for something like 7 dollars a while ago.

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For what it's worth, I still have BG 1 & 2 and their expansions installed, and periodically replay. Like them, Planescape:Torment is also (I think) a super good game, if you can get past the somewhat antiquated graphics.
My two cents worth, YMMV

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Yeah that was lame how peeps piled on them. Beamdog really got the worst of it from people trying to be all hater about minor characterization stuff or like a single merchant in their Dragonspear intermission. I actually like the company and don't have any beef at all over their attempts at greater inclusion in the game. All the EE VO work was pretty decent. I did a playthrough with the new companions and it was fun. I was just irked by how they obviously cheaped out on their portrait art lol

Some of the minor UI stuff I liked, such as the floating loot toggle, so you could pick up treasure from the ground without having to click each pile. Or how they approached BG1 with the NPCs having the "meet me there later" option at party reform. Some other stuff not as much. But the convenience factor of the EE won out for me, even if I still have all the old CDs. The old style installs just take too long to set up, and I like how quickly everything loads in the EEs. The difference in load times between BG2EE and BG3 makes me feel like lightning quicksilver heheh. If only BG3 could load up so quickly

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
The thing you have to remember is that there was dogpile effect after the game got review bombed for (shock, horror) having a character who changed gender. Somehow that ruined some people's childhoods. So there were review-bombs by people who clearly hadn't played the game and then other jumped on the abuse train. It's just fun to get your kicks in when someone is down . . .

Which is sad because some haters ranting at computer screen ruined people's careers.
yeah, a bit depressing since i stand by what I said about SoD being a pretty decent game overall with some standout good parts, so its a shame what happened did - I was never really into the new NPCs (except the goblin one) and some of the story elements are meh, but overall I was pleasantly surprised that it was pretty good: I mean Throne of Bhaal as it was released was a rushed, heavily cut mess, so *shrug*

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By UI, I meant more the size and... I forget what the english word for it is. The up-solution. Have any one of you tried to play BG1 on a modern screen? It's the tiniest shit you ever saw. You need mods to fix that shit. And if you don't want to deal with that, BGEE fixes it for you.


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Resolution

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Yeah SoD was pretty decent, especially since it gave you a way to import and continue playing with some of the Companions that didn't make it into BG2.

I wish instead of inventing a handfull of new NPCs, that they had simply allowed us to recruit the BG1 NPCs that make cameos in BG2. Like allowing us to recruit Xzar or Tiax, Coran, Faldorn etc in BG2 after their cameo archs conclude. I think that would have been received somewhat more favorably than the new EE companions they created. It would have worked for pretty much everyone in BG1 except Khalid and Dynaheir (since they died according to the prologue of BG2). BG2 was a bit uneven in terms of the companion classes available especially for the villains. So recruiting Eldoth or Shar Teel etc in BG2 would have been cool.

I don't really get the big fascination with Misc. He was always the first to get chunked in my BG1 games! Dumber than a bag of hammers lol.

Neera was alright for a Wild Mage to be added for BG1. I just didn't see a huge need for another spunky Mage to be inserted into the BG2 roster though, since that archetype was pretty well covered already by Imoen and Aerie from ch1, and Nalia from chapter 2 on. Nalia was more compelling and had the better Voice acting in my view. I never liked the Monk as a class, so I didn't care one way or the other about Rasaad. The EE companions are a little cringe sometimes but they don't really take anything away from the core game. Their companion quests give some cool combats and loot at least. The banters and interjections in BG2 are pretty frequent though, almost excessive, but you do get a lot more backstory for them especially in BG1.

But yeah I'd have rather seen more of the BG1 companions made recruitable in BG2, since I think they'd have been a lot more popular for fans of the original.

Its funny looking at all the BG1/2 portraits again just now, to see how busted in the face everyone is by BG2 hehe. Just the scars and scrapes (which they all have in BG2). Some of the returning fan favs from BG1 got a pretty serious makeover in BG2 like Viconia and Imoen, but I tend to prefer their BG1 looks in most cases. I really think its Kinkade effect I can't get past in BG2. Way too much yellow and pink and fuzziness across the board in the og BG2 portraits, and the forms are rather flat. BG1 had a more clearly defined palette, usually with a stronger read for the main color of the small portrait, and more interesting backgrounds for the larger portrait. Which just made looking at the savegame preview and portrait bar color sweep more visually appealing to me in BG1 as opposed to what they gave us in BG2.

I also wish they had included more mystery type portraits for Charname. You know, the hooded figure type portrait, where the face is half in shadow and the features are left less defined, so it could service more char types. Or just a few more options for each race/gender across the board. EE did add a few more portraits, but missed some obvious stuff that would have been nice to see, and again the difference in art style/caliber was noticeable. Least for me

These are the original BG1 Portraits...
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Here are the original BG2 Portraits...
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Just for comparison, some of the og Icewind Dale portraits, which still look pretty clean here even at a tiny scale...
I had trouble hunting down the close crops for the small size portrait that actually display in-game, but they were all fairly well executed. In general the handling was looser, more like a concept art wip than a fully dialed portrait. But basically, because Justin Sweet and the gang had the pro chops, these IWD portraits come across as looking a lot more polished to me, even where the brush strokes are less defined and some of the finer details are left up to the imagination. Just a stronger overall presentation, especially with the full figure presentation, and I like the darker ambiance.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I'd have hoped for something more like that for a Baldur's Gate enhanced edition, but I don't even want to post the default EE portraits, cause they're just kind of embarrassing lol. I like some of the larger EE portraits. Just not so much the crops they used for the small size portrait. All the EE portraits are resized/cropped too wide for their default small size, the one that displays on the sidebar and in the gamesave. Its more pronounced with Hexxat and Clara than Dorn or Neera, but they could all use a closer crop to bring them more in line with the face sizes of the BG2 characters. The crops they used make the EE portraits stand out from the default BG2 portraits even more than the BG1 portraits stand out next to them. Better to switch out for Custom portraits I think, of which there are like 1000s floating around these days. If you can get through all the Edwin/Viconia hooded photoshoppers.

Why settle when you could have a Dorn who looks more like this badass by Dave Rapoza...?
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Or if you need your Viconia to strike a sexy pose like its Vogue, why not just go all the way with it, like one of those the killer Drow paintings by Aleksandra Trezvina?
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Whatever you can handled with 10 STR right? lol
At least in BG1/2 there are options for custom portraits hehe

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@alice_ashpool agreed completely.

@black_elk Agreed 99.89 percent. smile Also not a fan of the monk. I liked Neera's personality -- she reminded me of a friend from high school but, yeah, the game didn't need another mage. It needed clerics and thieves.

I missed Minsc completely on my first few runs. When I first met him I asked about the hamster and he attacked so I just thought of his as the guy you don't talk to. Only found him when other started signing his praises. He's a good combination of very useful and comic relief in game that can get pretty dark.

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Minsc was the highest strength NPC before they added Dorn. He also had decent Dex and Con, and a "favored enemy" that was at least somewhat relevant in both games. Also funny (though Edwin was also very funny and very OP, and its hard to have them both).

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I'm just starting a BG EE playthrough and I don't mind the graphics at all. The atmosphere is really fun, the voice acting is good, characters don't seem edgy just to be edgy. the walking speed however...oh lord, it's painful.

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There are resolution mods, it's not perfect but it does wonders for my setup. Not to mention the EE versions.

I couldn't play Planescape for a few years because of what you're talking about, serious eye-strain.

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If we're doing portraits
I like the paintBG mod, makes the portraits into
[Linked Image from images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com]


Minthara is the best character and she NEEDS to be recruitable if you side with the grove!
Also- I support the important thread in the suggestions: Let everyone in the Party Speak
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Seconding Paint BG portraits are stellar!
There are many more including all the main story NPCs , playable npcs, other mods NPCs etc...The art style just fits so well in the game.
I also suggest you check out the following site:
https://www.gibberlings3.net/
Contains incredible MODS and upgrades to the game story, quest, mechanics etc...Everything is still being worked on and supported up to this year.
Notably , BG2 Fixpack (tons of game fixes/improvements), Sword Coast Stratagem (smarter AI, more difficult battles, improved strategy), Tweaks Anthology (very convinient gameplay tweaks), spell revision (revisits all the spells), items revision (changes items attributes), Ascension (incredible storyline additions for the endgame) , Undinished business (adds tons of great extra quests) , wheels of prophecy (more storyline additions to Throne of Bhaal), romantic encounters (more dialogues, banters for ALL NPCS), crossmod banter pack (banters between other modded npscs.
And thats just the tip of the iceberg on whats out there. For more amazing quest lines, check out also the Colors of Infinity series mod.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

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I've already replayed them both between the latest two patches. Seems like there are always new mods to try out, even after all these years.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I've already replayed them both between the latest two patches. Seems like there are always new mods to try out, even after all these years.

Yes, 20 years after the release, the modding community is still active.


French Speaking Youtube Channel with a lot of BG3 videos : https://www.youtube.com/c/maximuuus
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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I'm just starting a BG EE playthrough and I don't mind the graphics at all. The atmosphere is really fun, the voice acting is good, characters don't seem edgy just to be edgy. the walking speed however...oh lord, it's painful.

Did you get it from steam ?

The BG EE from the app store, on a macbook is horrible. It's a beamdog version of the the game. The graphics are way too small. @dexai warned us frown

Last edited by Starlights; 16/01/21 06:52 PM.

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I don't know about the mac version but have you found the zoom function?

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All this talk of the Enhanced Editions, they sure are something of a contentious subject, aren't they?

I'm playing through the Original Saga again and I feel like even after all these years, it holds up pretty well. I'm running the Enhanced edition and it's pretty good so far. I decided to run an evil party this time since I know the EE added two more evil-alignment characters, which finally makes BGII playable with a full evil party without messing around with mods or custom multiplayer characters.

I have only used Baeloth and Dorn so far (and Rasad briefly), but I didn't find either of them too offputting-Dorn is pretty straightforward as far as evil characters go and is pretty upfront about why he's following you. Chaotic Evil but you always know where you stand which is nice. Baeloth is pretty eccentric and toes the line with being OTT. I get that he's a secret character, but IMO a bit of a toned-down version would have been a good addition to the BGII roster, it's a shame that he's BG I +SoD exclusive, because BG II is the game that would benefit the most from additional companions. I imagine he'd be pretty fun in a party with Edwin and Viconia in that game.

Currently I'm debating getting SoD, since I'm nearing the end of BG I. I know that it adds a bunch of new companions and romances, and brings back some of the BG I companions that didn't make the jump to BG II, which is all most welcome. I'm particularly surprised that Beamdog was able to write a new romance for Safana, a preexisting BG I character-something that I had previously thought was off the table for Beamdog. This is tempered by the fact that I know that none of these new characters or romances make the transition to BG II. Starting a romance with Glint or Corwin knowing that you can't continue it in BG II doesn't sound very appealing.

BG I&II are still great games, and I don't feel like the Enhanced Editions take away from any of that, but the former isn't perfect-there are lots of little annoying design features, stuff cut from rushed development etc, and the later does a very imperfect job of patching up those imperfections. EE isn't going to make late-game BGII or TOB any less rushed and crushingly linear, it's not going to let you run with Xan or Shar-Teel in BGII, or restore cut romances or party members like Valygar or Mazzy, (or add new ones to existing characters for that matter-sorry Edwin fans) the EE is very limited in it's scope and is somewhat disappointing in that regard if you were looking for new or revised content to spice things up. I'd say it *is* better than vanilla BG at this stage, but there's a bit of an unfortunate air of untapped potential around it IMO.

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Ultimatly, if you play classic, rather than the EE you have to contend with, without mods, it will look like this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

while the EE will look like this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

of course classic can be made to look much different and much closer to the second screenshot, but it requires not insignificant post installation modding. Its always why I recomend the EE over classic to anyone who has never played before.

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@Leucrotta

Quote
BG I&II are still great games, and I don't feel like the Enhanced Editions take away from any of that, but the former isn't perfect-there are lots of little annoying design features, stuff cut from rushed development etc, and the later does a very imperfect job of patching up those imperfections. EE isn't going to make late-game BGII or TOB any less rushed and crushingly linear, it's not going to let you run with Xan or Shar-Teel in BGII, or restore cut romances or party members like Valygar or Mazzy, (or add new ones to existing characters for that matter-sorry Edwin fans) the EE is very limited in it's scope and is somewhat disappointing in that regard if you were looking for new or revised content to spice things up. I'd say it *is* better than vanilla BG at this stage, but there's a bit of an unfortunate air of untapped potential around it IMO.

Really well said. I agree. Beamdog never said exactly what the instructions from WotC were but mentioned that they were only able to make minor changes to existing content. I wanted -- and still want -- a version of the game that taps into the potential of the game.

This is auld news but just in case some don't know. BG2 was an experiment taken on a time before tech companies settled in on a set of business practices. Bioware decided not to give the BG2 a deadline just: "make the best game you can and we'll release it when it it's done". And so the years and months passed.

Then one day Feargus Urquhart said "where the hell is the game we've been promised?!" and he imposed a deadline on the dev team. So the devs rushed to complete the game and cut lots of quests short and the romances for women (Valygar and Haer Dalis) were never implemented. The "Aerie hardened" features -- new voice pack, dialogues and portrait that appear after the Haer Dalis - Aerie romance never made it into the game.

There are all sorts of weird, half finished things in the code if you root around. Reputation points were some something like a hunger mechanic at some point -- you meet two randos in a pub and nearly anything you say convinces the two star crossed lovers to rekindle their romance. And then they go on a serial murder spree, worshiping CHARNAME as the lord or murder and your reputation falls each time a new victim is found and your name is written in blood near the corpse. Get those reputation points up because they are going down tomorrow . . .

And there were the last second plot changes. Play testers hated plot #1 -- you can't rescue Imoen, she transforms into the Ravager and becomes the final end boss. You kill your best friend and, despite your best efforts, step one step closer to fulfilling the prophecy. As a consequence Imoen hardly has any lines -- she was only intended to stick around for the first dungeon.

I wanted something like a director's cut, an option to play with plot #1 and the like and that didn't happen. But I think responsibility falls on WotC. It sounds like they gave pretty conservative instructions to the devs that prevented them from restoring content that was cut when BG2 was handed a deadline.

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Yeah, something like a director's cut, or something that rebuilt the last part of BG II or ToB so they didn't feel so linear...stuff like adding back in cut romances (think there was at least three), bringing over more of the BG I characters or fleshing out the disparity in content between the class strongholds. I'd have loved that.

What gets me about the restriction I have heard about what they were and weren't allowed to touch in the EEs is what I have read about in SoD... They were allowed to bring back a whole slew of original voice actors to add new content to old characters, including in one case, a new romance! So how much leeway did they have? Was 'you can bring back old characters and write new romances for them, but it has to be in a DLC and can't carry over to BGII' really a stipulation? AFAIK even if you have her as a companion/romance in SoD Safana still dies in BG II. The fact that SoD inserts a completely new storyline in between BG I&II seems like it could have been possible to add new story content to the games, or was everything new storywise on a 'strictly self-contained' stipulation?

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This is why I love mods so much. The Valygar and Haer'Dalis romances are rescued, unfinished quests are finished, and characters can go from one game to appearing in the whole trilogy (my standard LI is Xan, in fact, thanks to Kulyok's excellent mod). I would've liked to see Beamdog do more in that direction, but to be honest, the modders already have most of it covered.

Of course when Beamdog went on to do Neverwinter Nights they decided the whole "adding content" thing was too much trouble, apparently.... though they have made some old modules available again.

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Some of that missing content sounds really cool, but I am 100% behind NOT making Imoen the end boss of the first dungeon.

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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Ultimatly, if you play classic, rather than the EE you have to contend with, without mods, it will look like this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

while the EE will look like this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

of course classic can be made to look much different and much closer to the second screenshot, but it requires not insignificant post installation modding. Its always why I recomend the EE over classic to anyone who has never played before.


I think the EE found a way to monetize what was happening already anyway in the game's afterlife with the modding community, and just made that concept easier to distribute. The problem with mods or house rules or anything like that is always the tension between continuing improving something vs pushing it out to as many people as possible for broad buy in. Or visual art in general is like that I think, knowing when to keep going or call it finished.

Though even if I like portraits, video games are more like theater companies or film crews and their own thing. Ensemble with a big crew. Trying to synchronize and get some big aggregate package of mods out is tough. Plus you had Trent with the connection the franchise there, so sort of an idea that we might get a directors cut of sorts.

The nice thing about BG is that after a couple decades in the works, many of the mods have been merged and made easier to use. And since its one steam and gog and such, makes installing and reinstalling less a chore, or fucking something up accidentally less likely. Baldur's Gate has basically had hella bonus disks and DVD director's cuts, expansions and special edition-ified extras added onto it, more than any other game I can think of. Like if Ridley Scott just never stopped making Blade Runner heheh. Or like Star Wars, as long as there is a simple way to see the original, I like that that exists. There should be a way to launch the thing in "classic mode" just from like an art historical interest standpoint.

But yeah, going back to BG1 resolution to play is an exercise in eyeball implosion lol. There's no going back from BG2EE reso and movement speed and UI bonus features. Before there was a way to play BG1 in the BG2 game engine, it was almost impossible to play BG1 after experiencing BG2. Which I think is why the latter had such a long shelf life, and why BG1 has been a thing of nostalgic fascination. I like that it was remade in NWN2, that project is a fun idea. Or basically like the idea carried over from film of the reboot.

The original game came out at like the peak of ISO 2d sprites before everything transitioned to 3d. Even with the short timelines, it came out at like the fin de siecle of an era in video game art. I think early 3D games don't hold up as well. Like its way harder to hop back in on DOOM or even the best of the best in early 3D cause just hadn't had time to develop. Eventually there will probably be a Baldur's Gate in AR/VR and we'll look back on the end of the 3D era with nostalgic favorites, but I don't think its there yet. Someone still needs to come along and make "the portrait generator" for a 3D model or "sound studio" for voice next level first. To match up with the custom content of the day.

I'd still love to see a BG game that essentially looks and sounds like the old ones, but where the animations and vfx and sound were just totally dialed. Like on a visual front where entering "Sneak/Hide" the character would put on their hood and hunch over and to move all stealthy like. Mages scribing. Warriors using all kinds of badass attacks like battle of the mounds. Or where the areas were larger and had the same basic features but everything was painted out to unreal detail. It would be a fun challenge to see a really well done reboot of BG1 using whatever the final BG3 engine can handle.


Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Seconding Paint BG portraits are stellar!
There are many more including all the main story NPCs , playable npcs, other mods NPCs etc...The art style just fits so well in the game.
I also suggest you check out the following site:
https://www.gibberlings3.net/

That spot is great!

Last edited by Black_Elk; 17/01/21 03:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
The original game came out at like the peak of ISO 2d sprites before everything transitioned to 3d. Even with the short timelines, it came out at like the fin de siecle of an era in video game art. I think early 3D games don't hold up as well. Like its way harder to hop back in on DOOM or even the best of the best in early 3D cause just hadn't had time to develop. Eventually there will probably be a Baldur's Gate in AR/VR and we'll look back on the end of the 3D era with nostalgic favorites, but I don't think its there yet. Someone still needs to come along and make "the portrait generator" for a 3D model or "sound studio" for voice next level first. To match up with the custom content of the day.
yeah, tell me about it, the shift from 2D drawn environments to 3D generated ones was one of the most jarring things i can remember (in respect to bideo games)

icewind dale looking like this now (EE):

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

While nevewinter nights be looking like this now (also EE):

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Even now I look at something like pathfinder:kingmaker and it still doesn't look as good as the IWD:EE, its far more detailed than NWN but its still got that plastic lego feel that seems to come with isometric 3D environments.

As far as the monetisation of mods re: the EEs; yeah, the EEs never would have happened if there hadn't ben a 15 year old modding community for those games, and as far as I recall there was quite a lot of work between modders and beamdog discussed on the forums at the time with beamdog really wanting to work with modders - understandably from both a community and a monetary point of view... i have no idea who got paid and who didn't though. As an example as far as I know "DavidW" transferred all his modding assets for "Icewind Dale in BG2" over to beamdog and i'm pretty sure that formed the backbone of IWD:EE

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NWN1 was ugly when it first came out. NWN2 stands up alittle better. But the 2D backgrounds of BG.ToEE, etc are still prettier. Arcanum was 2D and ugs tho so not a rule tho.


Minthara is the best character and she NEEDS to be recruitable if you side with the grove!
Also- I support the important thread in the suggestions: Let everyone in the Party Speak
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I mean. BG2, Icewind Dale 1&2, even ToEE were very pretty. But much of BG1 looks pretty terrible, only certain set piece areas look good.


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speaking of, lets go for something completley different.

has anyone tried the BG remake for NWN2?
id go for BG replay with friends in 3.5 given i have Tome of Battle, but only if the mod is actually any good and they put in the voice acting and it doenst look like complete ass


also

>IWD vs Kingmaker
gonna disagree, the prerendered backgrounds in IWD are great, but PFK has an amazing artstyle and while IWD has a pretty nice feeling combat with all the screenshake and whatnot, you cant realy win against the splatter in PFK.
Also hand painted 3D models are strictly superor to baked in sprites

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Even if I think nwn did not age as well (Also as it is limited to some old 3d stuff), modding did help it a LOT to make it look better. Either for character models, outfits, creatures and even the toolset/area creation. This is mostly relevant to the online play and custom made models/servers, the base game looked ugly even back then but still!

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I'm always surprised when I remember that Icewind Dale came out before Baldur's Gate II because the art presentation always seemed more refined than In BG:II, but for a forgettable story, it could easily have been the capstone for isometric CRPGs instead of Shadows of Amn.

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EE versions still looks amazing with some of the EE UI mods (the later version EE UI design is horrible!) , Lefreut's enhanced UI is A MUST (pics bellow).
Also nearly all the great original BG2 mods are now compatible with EE.

I personally hate playing max resolution wide screen were everything is tiny or on scaled mode were the UI graphics looks REALLY BAD and out of proportion.

I force my display to 1600x900 before launching the game and make sure I turn scaling off in the game options. The proportions are great for a 32 inch LCD, not too small or too big and the game plays very similar to how it was intended, quite zoomed in.
The BG2 art style is just timeless...still looks great in 2021. The UI is fantastic.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

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Artist for the manga Dungeon Meshi did the Baldur's Gate crew too: [Linked Image from 66.media.tumblr.com]
They also did Baldurs Gate II.

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That Eldoth
the others, eh but, Eldoth. I get it now.


Minthara is the best character and she NEEDS to be recruitable if you side with the grove!
Also- I support the important thread in the suggestions: Let everyone in the Party Speak
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Coran, with a jawline? Heresy


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Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Even if I think nwn did not age as well (Also as it is limited to some old 3d stuff), modding did help it a LOT to make it look better. Either for character models, outfits, creatures and even the toolset/area creation. This is mostly relevant to the online play and custom made models/servers, the base game looked ugly even back then but still!
True, but some real modules had better graphics also. Problem with NWN1 creation it could take really long time to create content example could take even 2 years specially if it was great content.

Originally Posted by Starshine
NWN1 was ugly when it first came out. NWN2 stands up alittle better. But the 2D backgrounds of BG.ToEE, etc are still prettier. Arcanum was 2D and ugs tho so not a rule tho.
You do not know whole truth about NWN1.

The original campaign did not look great true. NWN1 had much more content modding then most people could imagine edit make better graphics and you create persistent player driven worlds little bit like a MMO except they can set you can not load many times or set a heavy exp penalty if you die.

I played as multiplayer (compare to MMO) on a beautiful persistent Online World NWN1 and I also played many single player community made modules (adventures in NWN1). I liked NWN1 more then NWN2.

Anyway on topic:

BG1 and BG2 are both classics excellent! Icewind Dale? Yeah very good though a bit more say less open world feeling then BG more linear perhaps in my opinion.

On top of that BG1 and BG2 supports also multiplayer. We played and you do not need to be adult to play games with my brother BG1 and BG2 on LAN network back in the days.

Well another question I wonder sometimes am I partly eternal as an Elf since I have eaten strong antioxidiants and Carnosine for n years? I will keep my age secret not telling if you ask.
Carnosine oh tell me how young or old am I really? Keep on guessing.

I like this mix version of Baldurs Gate music. Eh for your oldest ones on the forums please excuse me for I do also like modern music, but depends on what music. There existed a thread where people posted how old they though most ignored or joked about OP inquiries.
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance [28] Elfsong Tavern (Remix)

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I've been playing BG 1 since this game (BG3) isnt seeing anything approaching reasonable update or even dev interaction.

Sorcerer, Paladin, or Fighter that will Dual Class to Cleric, all have their own appeals, and honestly the game holds up fine.

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Location: Finland
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Well another question I wonder sometimes am I partly eternal as an Elf since I have eaten strong antioxidiants and Carnosine for n years? I will keep my age secret not telling if you ask.
Carnosine oh tell me how young or old am I really? Keep on guessing.

I like this mix version of Baldurs Gate music. Eh for your oldest ones on the forums please excuse me for I do also like modern music, but depends on what music. There existed a thread where people posted how old they though most ignored or joked about OP inquiries.
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance [28] Elfsong Tavern (Remix)
Right a bit raincheck here. I like more European and say Russian taste then USA in music (I do not mean any USA country music, rock music or electronic older music no meant so called modern 40 on top list songs in USA).

DON'T START NOW DUA LIPA and GODZILLA EMINEM FT JUICE WRLD are released year 2020 was ok/good for me and below are 2 other videos from 2020 tunes that I like
of say USA 40 so called "best" tunes The Official Top 40 biggest songs of 2020 (but that is so in USA). Another tunes some might think I am r..... but I can not connect with the music or singer on any level sorry no.

Difference USA vs Europe/Russia taste?

Ian Carey Red Light was average in USA. It was NUMBER 1 in Russia still during year 2009 despite released in 2008:


Oh and another tune that I like released roughly year 2009:
Paul van Dyk - For An Angel 2009


Paul Van Dyk & Sylver - Forgiven Angel (VNRG MASH UP REMIX)


I really like this nasty song... sounds like a Werewolf and/or MURDERER if you listen to the dark words cool!:
Meg Myers - Desire [Music Video]


Baby, I'll learn to touch you
I wanna breathe into your well
See, I gotta to hunt you
I gotta to bring you to my hell
Baby, I wanna fuck you,
I WANNA FEEL YOU IN MY BONES
Boy, I'm gonna love YOU
I'M GONNA TEAR INTO YOUR SOUL

DESIRE, I'm hungry
I hope you feed me
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?

Honey, I wanna break you
I wanna throw you to the hounds,
I gotta hurt you, I gotta hear from your mouth
Boy, I wanna taste you, I wanna skin you with my tongue
I'm gonna kill you,
I'M GONNA LAY YOU IN THE GROUND

DESIRE, I'm hungry
I hope you feed me
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?

I wanna feel YOU, I want it ALL
I wanna feel YOU, I want it ALL

[Guitar strings]

how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?
how do you want me, how do you want me?

SHOT IN THE DARK [Award Winning]
Award winning video with Within Temptation music:


Oh and if you believe I am 100% Ku Kux Klan racist you are wrong despite I belong to True Finns party I like this tune most of 2020 songs:
The Weeknd - Blinding Lights (Official Audio)

In addition I have on friend from Iran Teheran. This friend of mine consider himself Persian and not Arab. My friend of Iran does NOT like Iran government who he consider hardcore Arabs. My friend is Muslim yes but not hardcore. He has come to Finland not as some fucking refuge that get unemployed. He works full time in Finland and has come to Finland to work and study. He is my friend and he agrees with me on politics.

What I have one friend from Iran do I hate USA? No!!!
Please note I do like USA! If I would decide Finland would be member of NATO, but that remains to government to decide.
I like Russia though in sports and have nothing against Russian tourists or women and I have had Russian girlfriend.

Another tune from year 2020 that I like:
Selena Gomez - Rare (Official Music Video)


Hahaa perhaps I am bit old find many tunes say 2000+ that are good, but year 2020 yawn on USA so called 40 best tunes for most part. It does not mean I hate those songs, but find most of them to be average and nothing special though some exceptions that I find good.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 27/01/21 09:01 PM.
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