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Originally Posted by Kadajko
How old do you guys think Minthara is?

200-300? 300-400?

At the moment i don’t know how much old she can be. I don’t remember speaking with her she gave any hints about events that could help us to guess her age.

Said that I will not say she is very old but she had her fair of experiences and bad relationships.
She has a good load of those Menzoberranzan life style.
Maybe she is 300 years old?

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Do you think we might be able to sway her away from the cult?

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I never got a chance to chat to her - her lackeys attacked me (maybe I made too much noise coming in...can't recall) and she joined in. At that point the whole fort was on alert, so maybe that means you just have less oppurtunity to do anything. Would have been nice to have her in a room with no other characters?

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Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Do you think we might be able to sway her away from the cult?

I think that if she will play a bigger role / be a party member it is a given.

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Originally Posted by booboo
I never got a chance to chat to her - her lackeys attacked me (maybe I made too much noise coming in...can't recall) and she joined in. At that point the whole fort was on alert, so maybe that means you just have less oppurtunity to do anything. Would have been nice to have her in a room with no other characters?

It doesn't matter who is in which room, if the fort it on alert, everyone will attack you once you get close to them, even if those fights will be isolated from one another,

Last edited by Kadajko; 19/01/21 12:14 PM.
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So where do i signup for club membership here?

Anyway. Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon? Yeah sure we just massacred few tiefling and druids, and a few kids. Had sex once. Then all of a sudden the drow, with history of bad relationships, professes to us. Bit abrupt in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
So where do i signup for club membership here?

Anyway. Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon? Yeah sure we just massacred few tiefling and druids, and a few kids. Had sex once. Then all of a sudden the drow, with history of bad relationships, professes to us. Bit abrupt in my opinion.

I think it was. And I’m probably the only one on this forum that doesn’t see what the hype is about regarding Minthara.

She looks like she’s going to fall under the same trope of other drow female characters in BG2 and NWN. Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Now if Minthara stays pure evil (and she should since I don’t see how you can be redeemed after massacring the grove) for role play with evil characters, that’d be interesting.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Necrosian
So where do i signup for club membership here?

Anyway. Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon? Yeah sure we just massacred few tiefling and druids, and a few kids. Had sex once. Then all of a sudden the drow, with history of bad relationships, professes to us. Bit abrupt in my opinion.

I think it was. And I’m probably the only one on this forum that doesn’t see what the hype is about regarding Minthara.

She looks like she’s going to fall under the same trope of other drow female characters in BG2 and NWN. Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Now if Minthara stays pure evil (and she should since I don’t see how you can be redeemed after massacring the grove) for role play with evil characters, that’d be interesting.


I don't get the hype either. I even watched her romance on youtube, since I really don't want to kill the Tieflings and druids. Not my cup of tea, she rubs me the wrong way. But she undoubtedly has her fans. Maybe we will get her on evil route and Halsin on good one. Would make sense, since you have kill one of those to do the other ones quest.

Last edited by fylimar; 20/01/21 08:33 PM.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon?

It's not, since she says she saw enough of you in your mind when you connected, but the plot hole is that it happens regardless of what kind of personality your character has, I think there should be a few flags that she needs to check, based on your background and dicisions, to see if you fit what she likes.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Wat? how is that a damsel in distress? When was Nathyrra a damsel in distress?

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon?

It's not, since she says she saw enough of you in your mind when you connected, but the plot hole is that it happens regardless of what kind of personality your character has, I think there should be a few flags that she needs to check, based on your background and dicisions, to see if you fit what she likes.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Wat? how is that a damsel in distress? When was Nathyrra a damsel in distress?

Evolved. Meaning drow females that are companions are seemingly designed to be redeemed or “saved” in some fashion. In Nathyrra’s case, it was to help her cause ( been a long time so I don’t remember clearly). Of course both Viconia and Nathyrra weren’t damsels in distress literally. But I get the “white knight” vibe with their stories.

If Minthara can be redeemed, I suspect it will play out the same way. I hope she stays pure evil whether she joins the party or not. I would love to see the final narrative story explaining how she took back her house and is now a matron or something like that.

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It's more a matter of whether or not the character is actually evil or simply "misunderstood".

If the character is evil, then a redemption arc is implied as character development. If the character is misunderstood, then the onus would be on the player to go through an arc of better understanding her perspective.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
It's more a matter of whether or not the character is actually evil or simply "misunderstood".

If the character is evil, then a redemption arc is implied as character development. If the character is misunderstood, then the onus would be on the player to go through an arc of better understanding her perspective.

Evil characters do not need to pass the "arch of redemption" for "character development". Please, let's destroy this standard of erasing evil characters and their evil personalities. This is not a mandatory ritual for "character development".

I rly hope that characters like Minthara, Lae and Astarion will remain evil. And that they would rather cut MC throat than be kinder.


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Wait. What do you think "evil" means? What do you think character development is?

Originally Posted by Nyloth
that they would rather cut MC throat than be kinder.
Yeah, um, that would be smart.

Now, I would like to imagine that they're "evil" for reasons above and beyond being evil for the sake of being evil.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
If Minthara can be redeemed, I suspect it will play out the same way. I hope she stays pure evil whether she joins the party or not. I would love to see the final narrative story explaining how she took back her house and is now a matron or something like that.

Well I personally hope not, it would be super weird trying to ''redeem'' someone after you slaughter some kids to get on their good side. I like her as the character she currently is and don't want her to change.

Also evil is in the eyes of the beholder, you can be evil to some while being good to others, I don't want to be on Mintharas good side, but that doesn't mean that she needs some sort of redemption.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
What do you think character development is?

Characters ideals and personality being challenged over time and becoming more solid or going through change.

Last edited by Kadajko; 21/01/21 12:26 AM.
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All of the Romance endings in Throne of Bhaal were obviously written with a good-aligned character in mind. Romance Anomen and you get 'treated' to an epilogue where a bunch of celestial envoys attending the marriage of the new goddess of Murder... eek

Viconia being the only evil romance option and having a redemption arc was sadly pretty predictable. It's a pretty tired and well-worn troupe at this point to redeem evil party members and especially romance options. The reverse is much rarer. I never followed the Nathyrra* romance in HotU, but I do remember that if you went with the evil option for the middle third of the game and sided with the Valsharess you lost both her and Valen side against you no matter what-costing you half of the endgame companions and romance options right then and there. Think that say a bit about common design principles of rpgs when it comes to romance right there. of note, the only romances you lose out on in BGIII by siding with the druids is Minthara herself, whereas you lose three (Wyll, Shadowheart, Gale) if you side with her.

I regards to Minthara and her romance, I think the voice actor did amazing voice work for her-her voice is really saturated with emotion when she confesses her love.**

At the same time I *do* think that her whole 'relationship' (for lack of a better word) feels really.....accelerated. compared to all the other characters you can romance, you barely interact with her-talk to her three times and suddenly wants wants to be with you forever! We are like halfway through the first act and we are getting this emotional confession of love (she basically proposes to you, really) that feels like it should be the sort of thing coming in sometime in the final act after journeying with her for 20 hours. Like I'm not sure where they can go with that relationship from there? I'm kinda concerned that her arc feels so...rushed so far because they don't have particularly long-term plans for her...

Honestly, I think she's likely to get killed off in the Act I finale or something like that. Probably her tadpole triggers and she spontaneously turns into a flayer or some sort of emotional suckerpunch like that. IIRC even when you convince her to not turn on you, she never seems to gets clued in that you aren't a follower of the absolute, and there's still the matter of the one in her head as well. That's a lot of convincing we need to do when we aren't even going to be seeing her again by her words until after moonrise towers, when presumably the poo hits the fan and we need to get the tadpoles out NOW.

*Bit odd trend that Minthara is the third Drow female romance option so far, but I can't think of a single male drow party member, much less romance option in any games. Also, I don't think there's ever been a recruitable follower of Lolth in any game either. Gotta be a Drow Lady, but not too evil, so they have to have turned away from the Spider Queen and need to have a soft and sentimental side. *shrug*

**It does feel really weird that she shows her sentimental and soft side right after having you butcher a bunch of defenseless innocents. A bit tonally off IMO.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Wait. What do you think "evil" means? What do you think character development is?

Originally Posted by Nyloth
that they would rather cut MC throat than be kinder.
Yeah, um, that would be smart.

Now, I would like to imagine that they're "evil" for reasons above and beyond being evil for the sake of being evil.

I don't understand how this article is related to what I said. In your understanding, evil characters should always become pitiful and kind, redeeming, in order to become stronger (develop)? To me, it doesn't, and that doesn't make them stupid.


For changes, the character doesn't have to become kinder or redeem something.. Otherwise, every good character would have to experience the "fall arch", but WOW, for some reason, this does not happen. They remain the same kind and no one says that they do not have growth. Or in your understanding ,the "evil" character is always "stupid" because he is evil? Also strange.

Some of them will always be cruel, cold, too selfish, and so on, maybe this is the basis of their personality. And chaotic characters don't even need a good reason to hurt others. Neutral evil can always pursue its own benefit, it never ends. Why do they have to suddenly reconsider their views? Lifestyle? Idk. Instead, they can develop in this direction. Was a thief? Become the king of thieves! Stronger. More domineering. More merciless. And so on.

I wrote about "throat" because I want the evil characters to have clear views. Just as clear as the good characters who leave your squad because you do too many evil things. You know what I mean? It is better to let them betray MC for the sake of their views than to be another victim of the "arch of redemption".

Last edited by Nyloth; 21/01/21 01:13 AM.

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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
We are like halfway through the first act and we are getting this emotional confession of love (she basically proposes to you, really) that feels like it should be the sort of thing coming in sometime in the final act after journeying with her for 20 hours. Like I'm not sure where they can go with that relationship from there?

How about being in a relationship, instead of spending the whole game getting into one? Starting a relationship should be only the beginning.

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Maybe. Still not much of a start though IMO. As I mentioned, there's like three conversations before she makes her confession of love.

I doesn't look like much of a relationship is planned either. You can't take her with you in your party or camp-she says she'll see you again after you go to Moonrise Tower and meet the Absolute-which means Act II at the earliest we'll even see her again. Compare that with the Origin characters who even if you aren't in a relationship with, you get to hear their banter, their impressions, their side quests. Maybe Larian will develop it into something meatier, but there really isn't much there at all, and there aren't really any hints towards that changing by the end of Act I even.

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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Maybe. Still not much of a start though IMO. As I mentioned, there's like three conversations before she makes her confession of love.

I doesn't look like much of a relationship is planned either. You can't take her with you in your party or camp-she says she'll see you again after you go to Moonrise Tower and meet the Absolute-which means Act II at the earliest we'll even see her again. Compare that with the Origin characters who even if you aren't in a relationship with, you get to hear their banter, their impressions, their side quests. Maybe Larian will develop it into something meatier, but there really isn't much there at all, and there aren't really any hints towards that changing by the end of Act I even.

She does not confess love.

Also the tiefling origin character, for example, wants to meet you later in baldurs gate, and declines joining straight away.

Last edited by Kadajko; 21/01/21 01:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Maybe. Still not much of a start though IMO. As I mentioned, there's like three conversations before she makes her confession of love.

I doesn't look like much of a relationship is planned either. You can't take her with you in your party or camp-she says she'll see you again after you go to Moonrise Tower and meet the Absolute-which means Act II at the earliest we'll even see her again. Compare that with the Origin characters who even if you aren't in a relationship with, you get to hear their banter, their impressions, their side quests. Maybe Larian will develop it into something meatier, but there really isn't much there at all, and there aren't really any hints towards that changing by the end of Act I even.

She does not confess love.

Also the tiefling origin character, for example, wants to meet you later in baldurs gate, and declines joining straight away.
I feel like this is splitting hairs at this point, but I find it hard to take her 'You belong to me and I to you' thing otherwise.

As for the Tiefling character, I think that's just a placeholder dialogue-she doesn't even haver her look finalized yet-still has both horns.

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