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I'm beginning to wonder if the people who like Minthara are also the same people whose first Star Trek was Voyager.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Aside from [Shadowheart], we've also got Lae'zel, a githyanki, and potentially also a tiefling and a halfling. A lot of fetish material if you're into that kind of thing. lol.
Says the guy rhapsodizing about how beautiful the Drow is :p

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
If you had to choose, which game seems more goofy and cartoony? BG2 -- with its focus on alignment or DOS2 which doesn't have an alignment system? My answer is DOS by a mile.

I think DnD lives in some place on a continuum between the cartoony world of DOS1 and the realpolitik of Westeros. I love the Ice and Fire novels but I want to play an RPG in Faerun.

DOS2, but not by a mile, it would be by a mile if there was no alignment in BG2. I enjoyed DOS2, but I would also enjoy it more if it was more serious,I enjoyed BG2 as well even with alignment. But like I said alignment is not tied in my mind to the setting, it doesn't suddenly become westeros without it.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
I think it's just that Minthara is hotter than Shadowheart. She is more conventionally feminine in appearance, at least.

Strange, I feel like the polar opposite, but maybe that's because Shadowhearts personality is much more feminine. And that's actually the reason I like Minthara more, not a fan of effeminate females.

Last edited by Kadajko; 22/01/21 10:52 AM.
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I don't care about evil vs good thing, I just want more drow waifus and husbandos for my drow characters.

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Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
I don't care about evil vs good thing, I just want more drow waifus and husbandos for my drow characters.

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Last edited by Kadajko; 22/01/21 10:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Aside from [Shadowheart], we've also got Lae'zel, a githyanki, and potentially also a tiefling and a halfling. A lot of fetish material if you're into that kind of thing. lol.
Says the guy rhapsodizing about how beautiful the Drow is :p
Eh. I don't know if strange skin colours are that abnormal. They have human faces, pretty much. (I know there have been complaints about that.)

Now the elves from DOS2, that is more of a fetish.
[Linked Image from oyster.ignimgs.com]

When it comes to the tieflings, I'm digging the horns and all, but the fangs still feel like more of an acquired taste. Maybe Karlach will grow on me though.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
I'm just saying that your assumption that:

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
The first line and the interaction with player after the failed attempt to kill us in sleep tell us, in a obvious way, that she clearly does not like betraying others.
It doesn't come as easy thing for her.

Is not necessrily true, because she might just be reluctant only because she likes you. If she didn't, she maybe could've done it without any hesitation, which one of the indicators is she does it without hesitation if you probe her for her negative thoughts, since then she is mad at you and no longer has a high opinion of you.


And that is why I have said before:

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
To be honest, I feel like Minthara features, as a character, a huge potential both to be reedemed or to be drawn into the darkness.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I honestly do not think, that she will be at any point good towards everyone, if redeemed. More like neutral and still uncaring, homever without harming innocents or others without any good reason. And certainly in very good relation towards PC.

I do not disagree with you about possible change happening with her, logically she could indeed become better overall, or just much better towards PC and much more calm towards others (selfishly though). Or much worse.

I think that this is well coorelated to your previous post; in other words, she will become more "tame", less violent, but will still remain selfish and uncaring towards everyone but PC.
We had more or less simliar thought, we've just expressed it differently.

I can see a reason for her to be even in party of good or neutral PC (when we join tieflings ofc, so before that slaughter, which makes her have way less blood on her hands), but this would require the Larian to implement the knockout mechanic and possiblity of capture.

I've said that in one of threads in feedback part of the forum, how could this be implemented. (Act 1 Druids vs Tieflings topic). If you are interested; here is the link:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888#Post748888

Even when being evil and joining tieflings out of selfish reasons, PC could still make use of her, or just let her join you out of genuine sympathy/whatever you roleplay.

Same goes for Halsin still joining those who sided with Minthara. The more options, the better it gets.

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Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I can see a reason for her to be even in party of good or neutral PC (when we join tieflings ofc, so before that slaughter, which makes her have way less blood on her hands), but this would require the Larian to implement the knockout mechanic and possiblity of capture.

There already is a knockout mechanic, it's just not working quite properly yet.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Interestingly, only Astarion and Minthara have lot of fans in Internet.

Gail, Will, Laezel, even Shadow Heart (although she is cute and mysterious) seems to be chosen by many in game, but they do not have enough charisma and charm to have many discussions about them. They are good companions, interesting personalities, the developers did a good job but just ... just not that.

Creative people like bright, charismatic and self-loving maniacs who have a difficult fate and who know how to inspire

I'm on the record saying that Shadowheart is the most interesting companion to me so far, probably the best written too. But the Shar/Selune speculation threads are long fallow now. People enjoy discussing morally compromised characters, and more, how they feel they're being treated by the game.

Indeed they are the most interested in morally grey characters, simply because they have flaws, just like real life humans. They offer huge potential when it comes to roleplay and potential change of character, simply because they feature the traits of 2 sides. It's up to PC, towards which side, they will be moved to. Purerly heroic or evil characters are just cartoonish, unless they are supernatural, but then they might be boring.

I agree that Shadowheart is well written. Out of all companions though, I like Lae'zel and Gale the most, since they seem to be the most loyal and trusted ones. Gale can be convinced by PC to stay even after we have done something that goes against his views (attack on the grove).

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I can see a reason for her to be even in party of good or neutral PC (when we join tieflings ofc, so before that slaughter, which makes her have way less blood on her hands), but this would require the Larian to implement the knockout mechanic and possiblity of capture.

There already is a knockout mechanic, it's just not working quite properly yet.
I have written this badly here, sorry. I meant exactly what you have said; same thing was written by me in other thread, linked above.
Knocked out characters bug the quests, aren't registered in them or just get slaughtered by nearby npcs. There is little interaction with them afterwards.

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Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
There already is a knockout mechanic, it's just not working quite properly yet.
I have written this badly here, sorry. I meant exactly what you have said; same thing was written by me in other thread, linked above.
Knocked out characters bug the quests, aren't registered in them or just get slaughtered by nearby npcs. There is little interaction with them afterwards.

I have a feeling though that Minthara might be the ''hell no, I'm not working with you, kill me or sod off.'' type.

Last edited by Kadajko; 22/01/21 02:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
I have a feeling though that Minthara might be the ''hell no, I'm not working with you, kill me or sod off.'' type.
You remember though, that:
- "I do not intend to lead a suicide charge"
- "Goblins are expendable, I am not"
- She spent her whole life "anticipating knife in the back"
- Via mindreading, we get to know that she is pretty cowardly, we can even call her a coward afterwards.

She clearly values her life to a great degree and isn't the most brave person. Also, if defeaten, but not killed:
- She still needs protection from possible drow assasins, as she is an ex-Lolth believer
- Enemies are everywhere, she has no friends as well
- I do not think that Absolute tolerates failure, returning there isn't an option.

At first, she wouldn't join you out of sympathy, to quote Lae'zel - "Practical choice". That would be the reason. She is said to be very intelligent and her possible knowledge of Absolute could be put to a great use for PC. I'm pretty sure she could realise that.

We get to know too, that she isn't exactly the most honest follower of Absolute, probably she sides with them only for power.

EDIT: Grammar and style

Last edited by TheOnlyRealTav; 22/01/21 02:22 PM.
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@TheOnlyRealTav

Hmm, yeah, you're probably right.

Back to the absolute is exactly where is is going though if she joins us. lol

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I think it's just that Minthara is hotter than Shadowheart. She is more conventionally feminine in appearance, at least.

Strange, I feel like the polar opposite, but maybe that's because Shadowhearts personality is much more feminine. And that's actually the reason I like Minthara more, not a fan of effeminate females.

I think Minthara is feminine, which is great. Femininity is not necessary should be an archetype "Damsel in distress"

She can be sentimental and sweet in certain moments, strong and confident in some moments, cruel sadistic in some, but at the same time remains feminine. Masculinity is Cassandra of the Dragon Age of the Inquisition, a hideous character. Minthara is fine with that.

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As for the knockout mechanics - I think it should be a cast scene in a good playthrough, when there is an opportunity to save her life and take her to the party. Very few players will correctly use the knockout mechanic, I think for IMPORTANT characters Larian need to do cast scenes with an offer to surrender, and knockout only for
not important characters / Easter eggs / enemies with information

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
@TheOnlyRealTav

Hmm, yeah, you're probably right.

Back to the absolute is exactly where is is going though if she joins us. lol

But thing is, she isn't going there alone. Minthara travles there with pretty powerful friends/companions.

I forgot this one too - she, just like the rest of Absolute leaders, doesn't seeem to be aware of having a tadpole. Now that could easily make her hate the Absolute, if she does learn it.

So, she might be going there to sort out some things hahahaha.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
As for the knockout mechanics - I think it should be a cast scene in a good playthrough, when there is an opportunity to save her life and take her to the party. Very few players will correctly use the knockout mechanic, I think for IMPORTANT characters Larian need to do cast scenes with an offer to surrender, and knockout only for
not important characters / Easter eggs / enemies with information
Easy to do, I will repeat what I have said in different thread:


Quote
During the fight, Minthara and Zevlor should be brought down to 1 hp first, instead of being outright killed. Only player should be able to finish them off for good. Scroll of revieve/resurrection should still be able to bring them back though.
Quote
Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.
Quote
Talking to Minthara after the battle, still at the grove and knocking her out glitches the whole final part of the quest. If we return back from the camp, after a long rest, she talks to us as if nothing happened, telling us that she will visit our camp. Homever, returning to camp doesn't start the celebrations. Nothing happens, except for Halsin attacking us.

If we happen to fight the drow lady, after the camp celebration and knock her out, no matter the previous treatment (if we were nice to her, or not) and we return to camp after the long rest, she is initiating the fight with 1 hp. Even if we knock her out again + come back after another long rest. It makes no sense.
We should be able to capture her afterwards or decide to patch her up. (if we treated her well and failed the 5 DC persuasion check)
Both could happen as well at same time.

Taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2

Especially the camp interaction, in current form makes no sense. Even if we fail the ridiculously easy roll; she still fights us and there is no way to forgive her, if player wishes to/capture the drow. She just keeps wanting to fight lol. (Same behavior for Halsin)
I do not think that she would be willing to fight in that situation (that means, knocked out, gets up, is badly wounded - 1 hp). Especially if PC would treat her well before and after the fight.

I was thinking too, that if the persuasion roll fails, and we treated the Minthara well before, then we lose the fight; our entire party is slaughtered, besides the player, who is knocked out and wakes up in next morning. It could be pretty interesting, like she is forced to fight us, cannot resist the Absolute well enough, but still isn't going to kill the PC. With the opportunity to meet later somewhere again.
But that's just a thought, the options provided above are much more fleshed out.

Last edited by TheOnlyRealTav; 22/01/21 05:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I think Minthara is feminine, which is great. Femininity is not necessary should be an archetype "Damsel in distress"

She can be sentimental and sweet in certain moments, strong and confident in some moments, cruel sadistic in some, but at the same time remains feminine. Masculinity is Cassandra of the Dragon Age of the Inquisition, a hideous character. Minthara is fine with that.

No.. Cassandra was actually very feminine, more so than Minthara, atleast from what I've seen so far. Are you just comparing their appearence? Because I am talking about behavior, personality. Dragon age actually didn't have any masculine females. Lae'zel is a good example of a masculine female, and I would consider the romance if she was monogomous, which she is not.

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OM(F)G, this thread fills me with dread. I certainly hope that BG3 will not turn out to be fan service for waifu-worshipping incels. The way romances are currently handled in EA is not great, which adds to the fear.

That being said, Minthara could be made into a fine party member for evil MCs. But there already is a cleric that seems compatible with all kinds of good/neutral/evil playthroughs. Maybe joining the Absolute (if that kind of play-through/choice is possible) will alienate almost all party members (except Astarion, maybe?) and Minthara will replace Shadowheart in that case...

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