Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback The evil playthrough (SPOLIERS)

First: It is so much more expensive, the sheer costs of doing this are absurd. I burned a cubic ton of restorative items, scrolls, barrels, grease bottles, alchemists fires, GOLD, and revive scrolls on just the fights alone.

Beyond that you end up butchering vendors so gold income and also takes a serious hit, on top of that you end up losing Wyll and Gale (if you don't pass a check that is, wyll leaves no matter what).

Second: The payout sucks! After everything I lost taking this especially dire path all I got in the end was the meager possessions of a bunch of refugees along with whatever you feel like prying off the druids sorry carcasses.

OH! There's also a sex scene with Minthara but, that is a very fleeting "reward" indeed as she tries to murder shortly afterwards and tells you not to go back to the goblin camp even if she doesn't whack you, so thats one less vendor to buy and sell with. In short Drow boobs are fleeting, lost companions and vendors are forever. It's just a bad deal on the whole.

Third: It's bloody difficult.

First you gotta pass a lot of checks in order to do the evil rout

then you need to go very out of your way through a lot of dialogue, then you need to NOT take any of the two dozen outs they give you

in case you suddenly don't want to be an ABSOLUTE scumbag then after all that you ultimately get to be utterly wrecked by a swarm of very angry druids who will ABSOLUTEly beat the tar out of you and a handful of goblins.

Tom Tucker: Hey Ollie, hows that evil playthrough?
Ollie: IT'S BAD!


Please note that I am focusing primarily on the grove arc here.
With that out of the way, here we go, playing as a no holds barred antagonist is lame.
REALLY lame.
.
First: It is so much more expensive, the sheer costs of doing this are absurd. I burned a cubic ton of restorative items, scrolls, barrels, grease bottles, alchemists fires, GOLD, and revive scrolls on just the fights alone. Beyond that you end up butchering vendors so gold income and also takes a serious hit, on top of that you end up losing Wyll and Gale (if you don't pass a check that is, wyll leaves no matter what).

Second: The payout sucks! After everything I lost taking this especially dire path all I got in the end was the meager possessions of a bunch of refugees along with whatever you feel like prying off the druids sorry carcasses. OH! There's also a sex scene with Minthara but, that is a very fleeting "reward" indeed as she tries to murder shortly afterwards and tells you not to go back to the goblin camp even if she doesn't whack you, so thats one less vendor to buy and sell with. In short Drow boobs are fleeting, lost companions and vendors are forever. It's just a bad deal on the whole.

Third: It's bloody difficult. First you gotta pass a lot of checks in order to do the evil rout, then you need to go very out of your way through a lot of dialogue, then you need to NOT take any of the two dozen outs they give you in case you suddenly don't want to be an ABSOLUTE scumbag then after all that you ultimately get to be utterly wrecked by a swarm of very angry druids who will ABSOLUTEly beat the tar out of you and a handful of goblins.

Last: Going 100% hardcore and taking every evil possible action that can be taken, is stupid to the point of actively shooting yourself in the foot... repeatedly.

1) The first fight with goblins upon reaching the druid grove.
Problem: As soon as we approach the druid grove, a fight breaks out between goblins and tieflings. We can't wait it out, we can't decide to join the goblins either.
Solution: Allowing the player to choose sides could create a good opportunity for the PC to initiate the "evil path" without requiring multiple dialogues + checks later (or saving Sazza/being drow), when entering the goblin camp. It would also lessen the feeling of players being directed by the game to side with Druids/Tieflings.
When siding with Goblins, during the fight, we should be still able to enter the Grove without a major fight happening. The only people who could recognize us, are Zevlor, Wyll and one of guards at the gate. Persuasion/Intimidation check should let us avoid the fight with those characters.

Problem: Wyll dies when jumping down during the encounter.
Solution: He can't die, instead he is reduced to 1 hp whenever someone deals the "finishing blow". A second hit, when he is unable to fight, only from player, can finish him off.

2)Siege of the grove and camp celebration

BOTH SIDES

Problem: Currently, the siege on both sides isn't the most interesting combat in the game, because:
a) It's long due to big amount of combatants
b) We can't influence it much
c) Little outcomes exist except wiping out the enemies

Solution:
- Possibility of convincing the leader of Goblins to use the secret tunnel, resulting in different scenario of attack. Cutscene should appear at the start, with PC deciding which side to take. The attackers should divide into 2 groups, one coming from the tunnels and one from the side of the gate.
- Leader of the opposing force dying/being knocked out/incapitated should affect their soldiers negatively.
- Killing enough enemies should not only affect the combat effectivness of the particular side, but also if enough combatants die, the rest should flee.
- During the fight, Minthara and Zevlor should be brought down to 1 hp first, instead of being outright killed. Only player should be able to finish them off for good. Scroll of revieve/resurrection should still be able to bring them back though.

SIDE OF THE ABSOLUTE - SIEGE

Problem: Bugs
a) Escorting Sazza to Minthara and letting her die afterwards, can completely block the quest from progressing. None of usual methods of initiating the fight work. (no cutscene at gate triggers, Zevlor says nothing, using the horn doesn't work)
b) Betraying Wyll during the interaction with the drow, results in him fleeing to the druids to warn them. Homever, this causes the attack to be completely bugged:
- TIeflings in hideout are not affected by the fear effect and fight us normally. There is no help from Minthara and goblins either.
- After the battle on the walls and inside the camp is over, Drow warlord is stuck in the camp area, refusing to go anywhere and repeating the same voiceline when talked to.
- Druids hide inside the caves, with the normal entrance being locked. We can still go around and arrive from the library via secret tunnel, but even if all druids die, the questlog fails to update and the leader of Goblins still insists that there is someone left.
- Wyll is missing in the grove and even if you kill all the Tieflings and Druids, quest is still stuck, with the drow still saying that someone is left alive.
This might be caused by Wyll being counted among defenders, but not being there.

Problem:Not enough options are present
Solution:
a)Another quest from Minthara before attacking should be present. The questline ends too quickly compared to the "good" side.
b)There aren't enough possible outcomes for tieflings. Solutions mentioned in this thread include:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark
- Sacrifice them for the Absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers
- Give them to goblins
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.
c)We should be able to weaken the druid grove by playing on the conflict between Druid Kagha and Zevlor. A way to make them fight between each other should exist, like showing the tieflings that Kagha works for Shadow druids, which would result in her + few of druids (not all) fighting against Zevlor, us and tieflings + druids loyal to Halsin.
d)Zevlor, Kagha, Halsin should be possible to capture.
e) Fight in the camp is too long, because of amount of fighters and distances. Some of the combatants cause next to no damage (goblins with barrels) while still pro-longing the turn time.
This could be solved by moving all the tiefling defenders from this area, to the walls and completely skipping this part.

SIDE OF THE ABSOLUTE - CAMP CELEBRATION

Problem:Bugs/Unintended behavior
Talking to Minthara after the battle, still at the grove and knocking her out glitches the whole final part of the quest. If we return back from the camp, after a long rest, she talks to us as if nothing happened, telling us that she will visit our camp. Homever, returning to camp doesn't start the celebrations. Nothing happens, except for Halsin attacking us.

If we happen to fight the drow lady, after the camp celebration and knock her out, no matter the previous treatment (if we were nice to her, or not) and we return to camp after the long rest, she is initiating the fight with 1 hp. Even if we knock her out again + come back after another long rest. It makes no sense.
We should be able to capture her afterwards or decide to patch her up. (if we treated her well and failed the 5 DC persuasion check)
Both could happen as well at same time.

Exact same problem happens with Halsin, when he attacks us. We can cause infinite amount of fights with him being 1 hp at the start.
Could be easily solved by a dialog happening between him and us, with a possibility to not kill him and via persuasion still gain the help (although the degree should be lesser, compared to the "good side"). He should be possible to capture here as well, if fight happens.

SIDE OF THE TIEFLINGS - SIEGE

Problem: Same as above, not enough interactions.
Solution:
a) When Minthara talks to us about the Gate, we could report this to Zevlor, to use it as a trap. When the attack starts, we should "open the gate", although this time to help the defenders. What happens after is that goblins charge inside and then, gate gets closed, cutting them off from the rest of attackers (for some time at least) resulting in tactical advantage.
b) If we happen to capture the Minthara during the battle inside the tunnels, we could bring her as a prisoner straight to the walls to make the Goblins flee.

Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.

3) Kagha and Shadow druids
Possibility to side with her, beyond just sealing the grove should be a thing. Like doing a quest or two. Expanding the questline would be great.

4)Goblin Camp and evil path
Problem: It's very hard to get inside without being a drow or helping Sazza.
Solution:
Siding with goblins during the first grove fight should let us obtain Symbol of the Absolute, carried by all of the cultists, essentially acting as a proof that we are one of them. Same symbol should be possible to loot from one of Goblins, obtained via persuasion/intimidation from the guards at first gate, or we could just force the guards to give it to us via strength, simliar to how we convince the Novice Crusher to listen to us.
This would solve the need for multiple DC due to numerous guards asking for our identity.

Problem: Even though it is expected that the leaders compete for power inside the camp, this isn't clearly shown.
Solution: A possiblity to make a little civil war among the Goblin Leaders.

Problem: The evil questline is too short and we are told too little about it, until the very end.
Solution: Adding a bit of mind-reading checks here and there, adding a few quests in the Goblin Camp area, with some being restricted only to evil path.
This is especially visible when looking at how often we are told, almost straight from the start, how powerful Halsin is, who is he, what abilities he has etc. The lack of simliar narration for the "bad guys" is a little disappointing.

Problem: Game puts a pressure on us, to side with tieflings, or straight tells us "how bad we are now", like what happens with Volo in the camp during the celebration, or the fact that we are handed down the broken lute belonging to Alfira previously. This results in deterring effect towards undecided players.

On top of this, both Priestess Gut and the Dror should be possible to capture, giving us more information about the Absolute.

5) Important characters (Kagha, Zevlor, Halsin, Dror, Priestess Gut, Minthara) should feature additional possibilites, such as:
a) resurrecting, either as an ally (if for example Halsin dies during the escape fight), or just so that we can capture them afterwards
b) capture for interrogation and in case of Minthara and Halsin, convincing them to join our side (not instantly obviously)
Our interactions with prisoners should be varied, in terms of how well we treat them. Especially the 2 most important npcs in act 1, who show a good potential for next acts - Minthara and Halsin.
A good treatment (such as being given a bedroll inside the prison cage, normal food instead of bread and water, etc.) could give an opportunity to recruit them later as a companions (and if player wishes to) even romance. It would be interesting too, seeing how we can either redeem/drag them towards the darkness.

6) Various other improvements
- Knockout and resurrection being properly registered by the game in the journal. Currently game thinks that characters are dead, or doesn't register that they were defeated via knockout.

After introducing the solutions above, a few common player complaints/issues would be solved:
- Evil side is too short/not fleshed out enough/chaotic evil only/"murderhobo"/makes no sense
- There would be no requirement for the Halsin or Minthara to be dead, if siding with the opposing side. Both are very popular and well liked characters and lots of people asked for them to be companions. They can still behave differently in later acts, depending on what side did we take and how did we treat them.
- The replayability would increase by a huge degree. You could roleplay as basically every alignment thanks to those adjustements.
- Siege would be more interesting and also slightly faster.
- NPC dying due to unfortunate consequences wouldn't force a quick-load anymore.
- Being forced to kill tieflings no matter what won't be a thing

Big thanks for everyone who decided to contribute by posting here, especially RagnarokCzD.

Congratulations on easily killing the hells out of the entire grove without any difficulty whatsoever, you must either be either very experienced, well setup, fortunate enough to come across some things I probably missed or have read a guide in advance.

Given how straightforward the goblincide path where all you do is go to positions x, y and z to whack three baddies without much in the way of setup or preamble..

- Never found the Paladins so, I will have to take your word for it.
- The zentarim hideout is locked behind checks, traps and is pretty easy to miss in the first place.
- After the one scene with minthara you are explicitly told not to go back to the camp, so the goblin vendor is out.
- Volo, never freed him from his cage, freeing him didn't seem like the evil thing to do (more on that later as it's pretty relevant to the overall main point here)
- Okay ya got me on the underdark point there as there are two vendors in the colony.

Regarding the payout.

-On the "good" playthrough you get a bunch of sweet weapons, sweet equipment, an absolute trove of stuff to sell off to a very easily and immediately accessible vendor, along with a straight shot into the underdark where even more treasures and such are to be had directly from the goblin camp! On top of all of that a freaking badass druid joins up and hangs out in your camp.

-On the "evil" playthrough you get a few greens (some of which can be acquired on the good run if khaga gets poisoned...) , a lot of grey stuff to loot and sell if you can find a vendor, and a poorly animated sex scene with a woman who immediately tries to murder you! Assuming she doesn't then you get sent through some cursed hellhole (that we don't have access to as far as I know, might be better or worse that the underdark) with a crazy as your guide.

-The fighter pulled a knife on me so I talked her into letting me slit her throat, sure there were options to keep her alive but that's not the evil thing to do now is it?

-The wizard attacked shortly after and was unceremoniously stabbed/clubbed to death.

-The warlock dies in the raid.

because "evil"

Do you know how many folks left/died on the good guy run? NOBODY!!!

Which is just plain counterproductive and stupid on the whole.

In all fairness I should have said "chaotic evil" as that might have given my obviously stupid decisions a bit of context here as most people can probably gather that perma-killing half of your companions just because you can is really bloody stupid.

For the effort that one puts in both ways, the overall gains and losses are not equal.

-(Lawful) Good: Killing the goblins and helping the refugees. You have more companions at your disposal, better loot and more income sources
-(Chaotic) Evil: Helping the goblins and butchering the refugees and druids. You never have to say "I'm sorry" but that's about it.

On the Evil playthrough I shot for chaotic evil (In hindsight lawful evil would have saved me a LOT of trouble and very likely would have had less of a lethality rate but, I digress.) I went out of my way to be as wicked and malicious as possible forsaking common sense and sensibility for maximum cruelty to the point of killing scratch This playstyle is pretty severely punished and borderline nonviable as I ended up perma-killing several companions (scrolls don't work, the skeleton won't fix em up they are dead and gone for good and all with no get out of death cards) and vendors where the only worthwhile thing I really got out of it was never having to say "I'm sorry" not even to Zelvor.

Don't take it wrong but that's not evil plays.

That is nihilistic play.