This is an attempt of constructive thread to talk about specific mechanics. We talked about everything in many threads but I guess it could be very interresting to focus.
This could help devs to understand what players like or not about those mechanics and what suggestions could make it better.
Let's focus on dipping here.
First of all : feedback. What are your PROS/CONS for/against dipping ?
According to me :
+ I like the "concept". Being able to ignite my sword and my arrows/bolt make sense.
+ I like being able to interract with the environment. This is an interresting possibility to do it.
+ Visually, I find burning weapons pretty cool.
- At the moment it's really not immersive at all. A Sword that ignite in the flame of a candle looks really silly to me.
- Still about immersion, I don't like that the entire weapon is burning (thinking about bows and crossbows first). That's totally WTF especially when our weapons are sheathed but still burning.
- It devalue the utility of a magical fire weapon, and I like magical fire swords.
- I'm sad the AI can't use dipping. It gives us a powerfull and easy advantage. It contribute to the easy difficulty of the game.
- I find it too easy at the moment. This is something you can nearly use for free at each combats. This doesn't feel special at all. I think it should be a tactical choice.
According to me it should require a material in your inventory. This would be a great step to more immersion and to a more balanced and interresting mechanic (considering we wouldn't find this items everywhere).
It would still be cool to find a +1D4 fire magical sword and some specific ennemies could be allowed to use dipping to look more Impressive.
About the burning bows, I'm not sure it's possible to only ignite the arrow but that's not very important to me. If weapons stop burning when you store them, it would be fine.
Tell us your pros/cons about dipping. Is that really something you like or not and why ? What could leads to something better according to you ?
I hope it's note too hard to read and understand. I tried to do m'y best^^
Personally I never made use of it. Despite the game being set in a fantasy realm with magic the notion of dipping a sword in a candle flame to create a flaming sword felt a bit...silly and OTT? I’m down with a weapon that is imbued with magical flame though, who wouldn’t be? Something just doesn’t sit right with me about a character with no magical abilities holding their axe over a candle and suddenly it is a flaming weapon.
Creating flaming arrows seems more feasible, provided we were carrying some pitch or something ignitious? As you said, basically something inventory based with which to create them.
A good compromise would be, dipping takes a full action so you can’t use the weapon on the same turn.
No dipping from candles and torches. If there’s a raging fire, campfire or oil on the ground that’s on fire, I can see someone dipping to ignite their weapons.
Dipping, if implemented should be a special resource not a common tactic.
I've said this before, dipping is just another version of poison. You are coating your weapon with a additional substance to get a effect. If they made a oil to coat your weapon so you can dip it probably be more in line with poison even more.
What I would like to see is using oil or something on your weapon to prep it and then you can light it on fire. The oil prep buff could last for some time but once you ignite it it burns up in just a few rounds, same as now. Using oil on your bow could give you like, x number of fire arrows or something.
Then later you could have alchemical fire useables that you can apply to to your weapons for immediate effect.
I don't mind dipping into say burning Mindflayer Purpliquid as much because it may very well be oily and stick well to the weapon or whatever. But dipping into ordinary fire (and even worse candles) without having anything on the weapon to make the flame take to it just feels too gimmicky and gamey for me.
I'm hesitant to criticise the damage output because I have a natural disposition towards thinking things make too much damage, but I do feel 1d4 might be going into the territory of minor magical weapons even if I know it's a pretty small effect.
Also when we get monks will we be able to dip our fists in fire?
I think Dipping should take a full action as coating a weapon in poison in 5e takes a full action. And it should have some kind of duration, even if that duration is 10 rounds. Otherwise I think it is mostly fine, maybe for immersions sake to light a metal weapon on fire it will need some kind of oil or fuel applied to the sword before hand? While arrows it should be relatively free and if you ignite a wooden staff or club that might be a bad idea and so the weapon can be damaged if you don't put out the fire? Might add function to mending if it is ever added.
I have been missing SPECIFIC feedback threads, a lot of good points and suggestions very likely get lost in the static noise and generalizations. Kudos to the OP for this initiative.
DIPPING:
Pros: + Cool for the impatient kiddies I guess?
Negatives: - Unimmersive, lacks internal logic in the setting (esp. the everburning candle). - Gimmicky. Significant early damage boost (esp. for dual-wielders). The practical limitation to use is PATIENCE/BOREDOM (which comes fast). - D&D setting has MANY BETTER things that can give the player flaming weapons while not being gimmicky, unwieldy, unimmersive. Please at least TRY to consider actual D&D before the Larian cheese! Implement Green-Flame Blade/Booming Blade cantrips (not-PHB), Flame Blade, Elemental Weapon, Flame Tongue magical weapons, Alchemist Fire flasks, magical/alchemical fire arrows (similar to BG1&2). Poison, either mundane or magical, works too.
I think Dipping should take a full action as coating a weapon in poison in 5e takes a full action. And it should have some kind of duration, even if that duration is 10 rounds. Otherwise I think it is mostly fine, maybe for immersions sake to light a metal weapon on fire it will need some kind of oil or fuel applied to the sword before hand? While arrows it should be relatively free and if you ignite a wooden staff or club that might be a bad idea and so the weapon can be damaged if you don't put out the fire? Might add function to mending if it is ever added.
The main issue is, there has to be some sort of penalty to offset a combat bonus, whether it be a bonus to hit or extra damage. It’s the same argument we are having with height and backstab.
The penalty usually was forgoing a turn to prepare, a specific class feature, or diminishing resources like spell slots. But dipping has no cost. There’s absolutely no reason (mathematically) not to dip when it offers free extra damage. Tactically you are weakening yourself by not dipping.
I think Dipping should take a full action as coating a weapon in poison in 5e takes a full action. And it should have some kind of duration, even if that duration is 10 rounds. Otherwise I think it is mostly fine, maybe for immersions sake to light a metal weapon on fire it will need some kind of oil or fuel applied to the sword before hand? While arrows it should be relatively free and if you ignite a wooden staff or club that might be a bad idea and so the weapon can be damaged if you don't put out the fire? Might add function to mending if it is ever added.
The main issue is, there has to be some sort of penalty to offset a combat bonus, whether it be a bonus to hit or extra damage. It’s the same argument we are having with height and backstab.
The penalty usually was forgoing a turn to prepare, a specific class feature, or diminishing resources like spell slots. But dipping has no cost. There’s absolutely no reason (mathematically) not to dip when it offers free extra damage. Tactically you are weakening yourself by not dipping.
If they must have dipping in the game then I would like it if they would at least add a toggle in the difficulty options to turn it off.
If they must have dipping in the game then I would like it if they would at least add a toggle in the difficulty options to turn it off.
An option to enable or turn off Larian homebrew cheese: Dipping, throwing boots, throwing enemies like spears, shove etc, would be good. But I hate thinking all the resources wasted on such poor implementations that could have been spent on actual D&D material. That oftentimes can do the same as the cheese without making it a joke.
I think for a good action economy everything must be in line.
Fire Arrows must be tar arrows and ignite them must cost a action. Fire arrows make fire plus normal damage so you make maybe less then 2 normal arrows but fire prevent maybe troll regeneration or ignite other effects which is the big bonus. To make fire arrows alsways the best choice is bad.
The same with maybe a Magic weapon. Magic Weapon which glows but have no combat bonus, Hey dont need a Torch!
Holy Weapon ? Sorry but Poison a holy blade wtf go away., =D
If they must have dipping in the game then I would like it if they would at least add a toggle in the difficulty options to turn it off.
An option to enable or turn off Larian homebrew cheese: Dipping, throwing boots, throwing enemies like spears, shove etc, would be good. But I hate thinking all the resources wasted on such poor implementations that could have been spent on actual D&D material. That oftentimes can do the same as the cheese without making it a joke.
The problem with options is that the game difficulty has to be balanced arround something.
If the game is balanced with "cheese", it will become very hard or frustrating without it. If not, it will be very easy using these mechanics. I'm nearly sure that's exactly what happen at the moment and why the game is very hard to some players and very easy to others.
I think the best solution is to find a compromise instead of thinking about toggle on/off everything.
I'm not sure you can properly balance a game difficulty for 2 completely different systems.
It's just in-engine stuff from DOS1 and DOS2. Even if it wasn't what do you think would have been finished in the time spent writing the dip subroutine?
I generally agree that dip feels kind of weird and stuff like throwing enemies and shove need to be reevaluated. I like the idea of shoving or even throwing stuff, but as it is stealth and shove work too well together. It also works way too well in certain areas with certain monsters, like the Hook Horrors.
The problem with options is that the game difficulty has to be balanced arround something.
If the game is balanced with "cheese", it will become very hard or frustrating without it. If not, it will be very easy using these mechanics. I'm nearly sure that's exactly what happen at the moment and why the game is very hard to some players and very easy to others.
I think the best solution is to find a compromise instead of thinking about toggle on/off everything.
I'm not sure you can properly balance a game difficulty for 2 completely different systems.
Frankly, I consider the Larian cheese more of an I-win-button/easy-mode than something the game is balanced around. Sure, it's harder without using it, but definitely doable. Even solo. Even so, I may refrain from using the cheese, but just knowing it is there makes me feel like I'm engaging in a self-nerf/fighting with a handicap and this actually limits enjoyment a bit (especially when I think of the many better ways the resources should have been used). I would have an easier time of it if instantly winning by pushing the boss off a cliff also, or exploding enemies with barrels, meant some magic item/loot would be lost/broken/burnt. Risk vs reward would be more balanced again. I want to not feel like a fool for not doing this the easy silly way. I want a concrete reason.
I agree an option is the last resort, only marginally better than nothing. Larian's cheese can be fun, but shouldn't be a core mechanic and rather be scaled back to become a situational tactical option. For instance, Shove is implemented in an objectively overpowered, unbalancing (both shove and jump favors strength builds) and immersion breaking way. So unnecessary! The fun can be had using D&D assets or homebrew with internal logic. Magic Hand, Thunderwave and Repelling Blast is already implemented. It could be expanded with a wand or a magic item/weapon that made the user charge and shove at the end, or a tadpole power. This would in my mind solve the unimmersive cheese and retain the fun.
It's just in-engine stuff from DOS1 and DOS2. Even if it wasn't what do you think would have been finished in the time spent writing the dip subroutine?
I generally agree that dip feels kind of weird and stuff like throwing enemies and shove need to be reevaluated. I like the idea of shoving or even throwing stuff, but as it is stealth and shove work too well together. It also works way too well in certain areas with certain monsters, like the Hook Horrors.
Oh, that maybe true for dipping, but the issue with Larian cheese is so much more than just that. I know dipping is the focus, so sorry to digress...but I gotta!
The latest Druid specific animations used solely for climbing ladders in wild shape form for instance. Why this design decision? Likely because Larian are so enamored with their own brand of silly fun they are thinking how to fit D&D into it rather than the other way around. They could have saved lots of resources by making the wild shape automatically turn back to humanoid form while climbing ladders and turn back to beast form when done. Without penalizing the number of wild shapes. Simple, elegant, immersive, quality of life, resources not wasted on something that likely always will be unimmersive - because giant bulls climbing ladders is plain dumb.
I'm okay with Larian exploring adding in more strategic options outside of the core 5e rules for players to use.
The problem with the dipping mechanic is that it does not present the player with a tactical trade off- it basically adds extra steps and time for a benefit that has no cost.
1) It's infinitely accessible due to torches.
2) it realistically does not cost any actions since it can be applied prior to combat.
3) There is no CONs or tradeoff on the applied effect. It's a straight damage bonus and cannot backfire.
Fixing any or all of the above 3 would make it a much more interesting mechanic. I.e. you get bonus damage, but -1 to hit due to how blindingly bright your weapon is. Or make dipping like poison where you get a limited supply, etc.
I'm okay with Larian exploring adding in more strategic options outside of the core 5e rules for players to use.
Except Larian is not really doing that. For instance, both dipping and shove adds nothing new. These options exist already in D&D in multiple forms, even implemented into BG3. This is about making strategic options into core elements no matter what the cost, no matter how clunky, how imbalanced, or how unimmersive.
I'm okay with Larian exploring adding in more strategic options outside of the core 5e rules for players to use.
Except Larian is not really doing that. For instance, both dipping and shove adds nothing new. These options exist already in D&D in multiple forms, even implemented into BG3. This is about making strategic options into core elements no matter what the cost, no matter how clunky, how imbalanced, or how unimmersive.
