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Originally Posted by marajango
Originally Posted by Lastman
Originally Posted by marajango
Originally Posted by Lastman
˄ i asked you to give me one example that is now useless in game due to Height advantage or backstab and you post me all the things that give advantage in DnD pnp... i'm glad we are on the same page...
You do realize that all those abilities that come at a cost, sometimes even another penalty on yourself, in a resource based system are rendered useless when you can get the same thing - advantage (roll two 20-sided dice and take the higher value) - at the cost of zero resources? Do you?
where in your mind is using movement not a resources?
You do realize you need to move in order to be in range to use those other abilities as well, do you?
no you don't yo can stand there like a stone.. if you want... completely valid tactic.

Last edited by Lastman; 22/02/21 09:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lastman
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by Lastman
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess I'll never have any answer.
Your so called question is just a feeling you have, opinion... Ever asked yourself that maybe it's not true and if you never played DnD 5e maybe you wouldn't feel this way.. What exactly is this thing that is now useless do to Height advantage or backstab in your opinion - feeling? One example will do...

When one of if not THE most powerful mechanic in the game, upon which Class balance, Class Features, and spells up to the max level are based, can be abused at level 1, by jumping around the map like an idiot?

Yes, that's a problem.
How is using 3D environment at level 1 abusing it. i mean you can do the same thing without jumping btw. So stop bringing jump in to it. That's a different kind of problem all together and warrants it's own thread.

You are arguing for rending the basis of the 5e system to be irrelevant based on standing higher than a target.

This isn't Sun Tzu levels of brilliance.

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Seriously how the hell could we have a constructive discussion with such ... people...

If I had given one exemple his answer would probably have been something like "it's only one useless spell, that's not so important".....

It's so hopeless.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 22/02/21 09:54 PM.
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Not worth my time xD

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Both height and backstab advantage are overtuned, but I'd say backstab advantage is by far a bigger offender than height advantage.

Height advantage is at least controllable and deniable. It requires:

1) Elevation (relative to the enemy) to work. You are not guaranteed this every encounter. You can gain it with movement, but the enemy can easily deny it with their movement.

2) Not having someone else in threaten range (which is far wider than melee range). For better or for worst, most legit monsters in the EA have space jam level jump.

3) Line of fire to work - minor, but a refined AI or player can take advantage of this to protect themselves from ranged advantage.

On top of this, a specific elevated position can be made far less desirable by a surface grenade (which everyone seems to carry) or a level 1 spell like Fog Cloud.


Contrast that against backstab advantage. It cannot be denied (unless someone parks literally themselves into a corner). It doesn't even require a bonus action jump if you're not surrounded (you can just inch your way around someone to their backs).

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Backstab can also just be modded out.

So far I've found the following can be cleaned up.

Fire/Acid Explosion Arrows.
Height Advantage.
Backstab.
Dodge/Jump (Kinda).
Barrels.
Dipping (lol!)

At this point, unless Larian actively screws us over, we can fix this game...

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Originally Posted by Scribe
Backstab can also just be modded out.

So far I've found the following can be cleaned up.

Fire/Acid Explosion Arrows.
Height Advantage.
Backstab.
Dodge/Jump (Kinda).
Barrels.
Dipping (lol!)

At this point, unless Larian actively screws us over, we can fix this game...

Hmm, hopefully you guys also figure out how to get rid of the 'Target Too Close' malus, and reduce 'Threatened' range to just whether or not you're eligible to take an opportunity attack if you move away. I am not entirely sure modding out height advantage is a good idea without those two being addressed at the same time, or else it's still going to be a race to high ground and needing bonus action shove just for the simple idea of staying a mile away from enemies to avoid the threatened penalty at all times.

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Originally Posted by Scribe
Backstab can also just be modded out.

So far I've found the following can be cleaned up.

Fire/Acid Explosion Arrows.
Height Advantage.
Backstab.
Dodge/Jump (Kinda).
Barrels.
Dipping (lol!)

At this point, unless Larian actively screws us over, we can fix this game...
There you go now your thinking in the right direction...

The vast majority of casual don't even bother with those things - backstab and height advantage. Just look at how Swen is playing...

Larian isn't making a game exclusively for a few forums warriors who think that dnd 5e should be like it is in pnp. If they were we would have all those fixes with patch 1 or 2. But that didn't happen so...
Casual people will play the game have fun make a review with 85+ and move one if it's anything like 5e or not.

In nightmare mode if it's any good you will want those two thing anyway. The only thing that i see as problematic is the jump/disengage i can live with all others. I mean if i can live with berrels!?! We can just mod/ not use those or ignore them. Sadly even jump/disengage is staying the same majority knows it suxs. So good luck with Height advantage, that's barely on the list...
i suggest you stay with one thing and try to get that one important fix. Time is running out, patch 4 and hardly anything is changed.

Last edited by Lastman; 23/02/21 10:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by Scribe
Backstab can also just be modded out.

So far I've found the following can be cleaned up.

Fire/Acid Explosion Arrows.
Height Advantage.
Backstab.
Dodge/Jump (Kinda).
Barrels.
Dipping (lol!)

At this point, unless Larian actively screws us over, we can fix this game...

I don't want Backstab removed I want it reworked into a more balanced function, and more engaging facing mechanics.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
I don't want Backstab removed I want it reworked into a more balanced function, and more engaging facing mechanics.

The more balanced mechanics is called flanking.

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BG3 for RPG 101 and telltale fans.
For fun and deep gameplay mechanics we have Solasta and the upcoming Pathfinder 2 for now...until modders fix BG3. Sure does look like Larian isnt drastically changing anything mechanics/UI related.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 23/02/21 01:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Dexai
I don't want Backstab removed I want it reworked into a more balanced function, and more engaging facing mechanics.

The more balanced mechanics is called flanking.

Not necessarily. Flanking as per the rules gives advantage which is generally considered too powerful and decreased to a +2 on attacks.

I also want the game to take facing into account (since tbt DnD doesn't have facing by default because it makes it unnecessarily complicated, but a video game with models have facing -- visually speaking -- by default) instead of just giving bonuses for being on the opposite sides of the target.


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Backstab definitely needs reworking or alternative rules, i would prefer some kind of flanking mechanic as well. It can add a lot of tactical depth to combat.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Dexai
I don't want Backstab removed I want it reworked into a more balanced function, and more engaging facing mechanics.

The more balanced mechanics is called flanking.

Not necessarily. Flanking as per the rules gives advantage which is generally considered too powerful and decreased to a +2 on attacks.

I also want the game to take facing into account (since tbt DnD doesn't have facing by default because it makes it unnecessarily complicated, but a video game with models have facing -- visually speaking -- by default) instead of just giving bonuses for being on the opposite sides of the target.

It could really be cool in such a TB video game but I really don't think it could work in BG3.

I guess it would require a massive rework of the entire combat system to be interresting more than boring.
An easy facing implementation would just lead to the actual backstab and I don't think they're able to (they want to) go as deeper in term of tactical combats.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/02/21 02:08 PM.
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I also felt im rarely in danger during playing, I guess this is not final set of rules as it's in EA.

Nevertheless, I'm not familiar with dnd but current combat and gameplay loop needs to be improved for sure.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Dexai
I don't want Backstab removed I want it reworked into a more balanced function, and more engaging facing mechanics.

The more balanced mechanics is called flanking.

100% this. Flanking (if implemented per the 5e optional rule) also rewards tactical positioning and teamwork but won't invalidate other advantage abilities as much.

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Originally Posted by Topgoon
Both height and backstab advantage are overtuned, but I'd say backstab advantage is by far a bigger offender than height advantage.

Absolutely! Been saying this all along, and it's important to bear in mind with all the focus on height advantage as seemingly the only evil or the bigger evil of the two. Height advantage has ONLY the issue of over-incentivization (incentivization of tactical movement is GOOD however), while flanking has MULTIPLE issues:

1. As you point out, height advantage is not guaranteed for multiple reason, where flanking is a certainty.
2. Height advantage is at least balanced in that it's a tactic the enemy very frequently uses, when they seldom if ever flank.
3. The enemy being totally defenseless/unresponsive to a single attacker makes melee combat unimmersive. Turn-based combat (that I like) is exposed as a sham.
4. The act of flanking is guaranteed, and this in itself is a negative. If something is guaranteed, having to perform a small ritual to get it every time becomes boring and cheesy. When boredom/patience is the only practical limitation of something so significant, it's simply BAD game design. Just like weapon dipping is.

I have suggested the following change in the overly simplistic flanking mechanic:

Melee combatants, even when not their turn to act, will always automatically pivot to threat - unless already engaged in melee with another threat, or surprised. Immersion and balance restored to the system.



Originally Posted by Scribe
Backstab can also just be modded out.

That is well and good; people can ignore or mod away much of this, but will always be aware of the fact they're engaging in self-nerfing behaviour, playing at harder difficulty with no additional reward for the added risk.

The larger issue remains though; the repeated use of resources on "Larian cheese", which too often are unimmersive, unbalanced and clunky implementations, means less resources on implementing actual D&D or story content that has none of these issues.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Scribe
Backstab can also just be modded out.

So far I've found the following can be cleaned up.

Fire/Acid Explosion Arrows.
Height Advantage.
Backstab.
Dodge/Jump (Kinda).
Barrels.
Dipping (lol!)

At this point, unless Larian actively screws us over, we can fix this game...

Hmm, hopefully you guys also figure out how to get rid of the 'Target Too Close' malus, and reduce 'Threatened' range to just whether or not you're eligible to take an opportunity attack if you move away. I am not entirely sure modding out height advantage is a good idea without those two being addressed at the same time, or else it's still going to be a race to high ground and needing bonus action shove just for the simple idea of staying a mile away from enemies to avoid the threatened penalty at all times.

I'll check on this and flanking.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Dexai
I don't want Backstab removed I want it reworked into a more balanced function, and more engaging facing mechanics.

The more balanced mechanics is called flanking.

Not necessarily. Flanking as per the rules gives advantage which is generally considered too powerful and decreased to a +2 on attacks.

I also want the game to take facing into account (since tbt DnD doesn't have facing by default because it makes it unnecessarily complicated, but a video game with models have facing -- visually speaking -- by default) instead of just giving bonuses for being on the opposite sides of the target.

I wouldn’t mind +2 to flanking but has to be flanking, not just run behind someone to gain the bonuses. And 5e does take facing into account it’s just you can’t see it in turn based. DND doesn’t have facing because it is assumed during those six seconds, a character can rotate back and forth which is why opponents don’t get advantage.

Obviously the flanking option is suggesting even if the defender can move, it still can’t cover attacks from opposite sides.

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Being TB doesn't really affect whether there's facing or not. If the rules took facing into account only the character who is actually flanking the target would get flanking bonuses.


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