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@RagnarokCzD : indeed, my descriptions lacked information/data. I just gave information that was enough for me to form a vague idea of the characters.

If we consider roleplay and power-gaming being each on an axis, from 0 to 100%, all that can be said of Ceega and Dench is that they are somewhat-roleplay, and Ceega is not really power-gaming (say, "under a given power-gaming threshold") while Dench is power-gaming (above that same threshold).

As Dench has S:11 D:9 C:14 I:16 W:13 C:12, that's just power-gaming, while if he had S:8 D:14 C:16 I:16 W:10 C:8, then this would be a min-maxed character (maximum power-gaming). If Dench is 30, was raised by Wizards at the Academy, wants to study further Charms and Illusions to have an easier time going to taverns, dreams of a diplomatic career, is a pacifist (except toward a certain Uthgardt tribe who wiped out his tribe when he was 10), is fairly proud and a bit vain from being the only Orc Wizard most people have ever seen, and his passion for food and lack of interest in physical exercise leads to a steadily growing belt size, then this character can be role-played a lot more than with just my initial description.

All areas of the roleplay-powergaming square are possible, i.e. roleplay and power-gaming are independent things. So a player can be playing their character high in roleplay and high in power-gaming, or high-low, low-high, ..., and of course there's medium between high and low. (Note : I am slightly assimilating the obvious-roleplay-potential of the character, and how much roleplay its player would put into it, which is a simplification.)

With the Roll rule, some characters in the high-roleplay medium-powergaming (let alone high-powergaming) zone, like Dench, are unavailable unless you're lucky. The optional Point-Buy rules locks out that character. The optional Custom Origin rule allows it. In a sense, one can say that Custom Origins improves both roleplaying and power-gaming options.

But a player who primarily wants power-gaming and min-maxing, with a medium-to-low interest in roleplaying, could already create their perfect character. Want an Intelligent and durable Wizard ? Play as a Human or High Elf.

Whereas a player who primarily wants roleplaying, with an eye for also medium power-gaming (16 in main Ability Score), could not. Want an Orc Wizard ? The backstory of your character doesn't matter, you can play it only if you're lucky or ready to accept less power-gaming.

In that sense, it seems to me that the Custom Origin benefits roleplaying-first players more than it benefits minmaxing-first players.


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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
In that sense, it seems to me that the Custom Origin benefits roleplaying-first players more than it benefits minmaxing-first players.

I generally agree with your comment except the part I quoted.

It most certainly benefits min maxers just as much as role players because now not only can they maximize their ability scores, they can maximize racial skills/abilities.

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This just seem impossible to exact decide ...

For one, humans have average IQ 90-110, yet sometimes there are person who have abowe 140 ... how can you decide when is your character just gifted genius, and when you simply put all your points to good stat not care at all about making sence? :-/

Also ... i dont like that stat being called Intelligence to be honest, it seem like everyone i know expect characters with lower intelligence to be at least demented or something. -_-
Yet intelligence is much more than ability to make whole, complement senteces ... its about your character memory (therefore remembering more spells for a day), abylity to learn new things, abylity to understand so far unknown things, or solve problems, etc. :-/
Not every barbarian who have intelligence 8 have to be Neanderthal telling just "me smash, me eat". :-/

Im sorry, its certainly interesting topic to talk about, but it seem to me impossible, and kinda childish to try determine exact spot where role play ends, and power play starts. frown
Honestly i would rather play with someone who can provide me interesting character, good storyreacting and fun, even if his character is strictly set for maximal effectivity ... than someone who will spend an hour every level he gain to determine wich spell, or wich stat he should take, to not look too power-playerish. :-/


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Also ... i dont like that stat being called Intelligence to be honest, it seem like everyone i know expect characters with lower intelligence to be at least demented or something. -_-
Yet intelligence is much more than ability to make whole, complement senteces ... its about your character memory (therefore remembering more spells for a day), abylity to learn new things, abylity to understand so far unknown things, or solve problems, etc. :-/
Not every barbarian who have intelligence 8 have to be Neanderthal telling just "me smash, me eat". :-/

Im sorry, its certainly interesting topic to talk about, but it seem to me impossible, and kinda childish to try determine exact spot where role play ends, and power play starts. frown

Of all the ability scores I always thought INT was the most accurate because it’s exactly those things you described. Low intelligence doesn’t mean your character is demented or crazy. They are slow. Forrest Gump would have an INT of roughly 8 (I think his IQ was 83 in the movie). He was just somewhat slower grasping ideas but he wasn’t crazy or completely useless.

And again. Roleplay and power gaming are not mutually exclusive. One does not have to stop for the other to start. They can both happen together.

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Originally Posted by Darsen
Will you add the Xanathar's and Tasha's features in the 1.0?
I'm talking about:
- subclasses
- classes (artificer is the only brand new class)
- feats
- tasha's new rules about attribute points and lignage
- spells

Most of these sound great I can't lie

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Roleplay and power gaming are not mutually exclusive. One does not have to stop for the other to start. They can both happen together.
I can sign that without a doubt in my mind. smile


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
It most certainly benefits min maxers just as much as role players because now not only can they maximize their ability scores, they can maximize racial skills/abilities.

Ah. Fair point. I had thought with the perspective of someone primarily interested in roleplay/stories (yet with an eye for a minimum power-gaming). Being not an expert power-gamer or a minmaxer, I didn't immediately think of racial traits. I thought : if you're a minmaxer and don't really care about who you play, race is essentially just giving you a set of ASI. But it also gives racial traits (skills, unique abilities, etc). So Custom Origins benefits minmaxers more than what I thought. Well, then Custom Origins probably benefits both roleplay-first players and minmaxing-first players.

@RagnarokCzD : yeah, there are overdone (and often poorly done) clichés, like the 8-Int Barbarian who's mentally retarded, the Thief who's kleptomaniac, the Bard who fucks with everyonething, ...

But I tend to consider Intelligence, Strength and Constitution as the most obvious of the 6 Ability Scores. Sure, there are several types of intelligence, and the whole verbal-social-emotional intelligence is essentially going under Charisma. The complicated ones for me are Dexterity and Wisdom, as they are kind of a dump-the-rest-together Abilities. (Also, if this thread veers off Tasha's Custom Origin rule, which itself was somewhat letting parts of the original post on the side, I'll blame it all on you ! :p Then again ... it's not like thread have a pronounced tendency to stay on topic too long either.)


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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
It most certainly benefits min maxers just as much as role players because now not only can they maximize their ability scores, they can maximize racial skills/abilities.

Ah. Fair point. I had thought with the perspective of someone primarily interested in roleplay/stories (yet with an eye for a minimum power-gaming). Being not an expert power-gamer or a minmaxer, I didn't immediately think of racial traits. I thought : if you're a minmaxer and don't really care about who you play, race is essentially just giving you a set of ASI. But it also gives racial traits (skills, unique abilities, etc). So Custom Origins benefits minmaxers more than what I thought. Well, then Custom Origins probably benefits both roleplay-first players and minmaxing-first players.

Oh absolutely, once I saw that D&D is likely to make Tasha's the only official way going forward to assign ASI, I just looked for the most potent combination of racial spells and additional effects.

Mostly it revolves around races with Misty Step (or similar) at Level 1. That is a very very strong ability.

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Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm sorry, I just disagree. Your RP, your story, is not tied explicitly to one value or another.

An orc with 14 int, is smart.
An orc with 16 int, is smart.

That +1 on your spell's DC, is not game breaking. Its just optimization. It has nothing to do with RP.

If you want to argue about what it does to the flexability of your OTHER ASI, then you are simply proving my point further. It is about the mechanical crunch. The optimization. It is not an RP concern.

Again, go nuts and have fun. There is a Tasha's mod right now, but if they make it into the 'official' version of BG3, I'll just have 1 more thing to mod out of the game.

An orc with 16 int is smarter than an orc with 14 int, though. That effects the roleplay of those two characters when it comes time to start rolling the dice.

I don't stop roleplaying when the dice come out. The character's rolls inform the success or failure of their actions within the narrative, therefore it is all part of the roleplaying experience to me.

Also. Why would you need to mod it out? Tasha's rules are optional. You'd literally just not use the option and get the same result as if it was never added in the first place.

Last edited by SaurianDruid; 24/02/21 03:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm sorry, I just disagree. Your RP, your story, is not tied explicitly to one value or another.

An orc with 14 int, is smart.
An orc with 16 int, is smart.

That +1 on your spell's DC, is not game breaking. Its just optimization. It has nothing to do with RP.

If you want to argue about what it does to the flexability of your OTHER ASI, then you are simply proving my point further. It is about the mechanical crunch. The optimization. It is not an RP concern.

Again, go nuts and have fun. There is a Tasha's mod right now, but if they make it into the 'official' version of BG3, I'll just have 1 more thing to mod out of the game.

An orc with 16 int is smarter than an orc with 14 int, though. That effects the roleplay of those two characters when it comes time to start rolling the dice.

I don't stop roleplaying when the dice come out. The character's rolls inform the success or failure of their actions within the narrative, therefore it is all part of the roleplaying experience to me.

Also. Why would you need to mod it out? Tasha's rules are optional. You'd literally just not use the option and get the same result as if it was never added in the first place.

I dont even want to see it as an option, I want it locked in, part of the race, and thats that. There's a ton of stuff I am planning to remove from the implementation as it is, if thats one more thing, no big deal.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm sorry, I just disagree. Your RP, your story, is not tied explicitly to one value or another.

An orc with 14 int, is smart.
An orc with 16 int, is smart.

That +1 on your spell's DC, is not game breaking. Its just optimization. It has nothing to do with RP.

If you want to argue about what it does to the flexability of your OTHER ASI, then you are simply proving my point further. It is about the mechanical crunch. The optimization. It is not an RP concern.

Again, go nuts and have fun. There is a Tasha's mod right now, but if they make it into the 'official' version of BG3, I'll just have 1 more thing to mod out of the game.

An orc with 16 int is smarter than an orc with 14 int, though. That effects the roleplay of those two characters when it comes time to start rolling the dice.

I don't stop roleplaying when the dice come out. The character's rolls inform the success or failure of their actions within the narrative, therefore it is all part of the roleplaying experience to me.

Also. Why would you need to mod it out? Tasha's rules are optional. You'd literally just not use the option and get the same result as if it was never added in the first place.

Yeah, I am not sure why anyone would have to mod it out anyways? If they don't like it, all they'd have to do is not touch the ASI assigned by race once they pick their Race and Subrace? If it is a temptation, it is only one that has to be resisted once?

Edit: I typed this out before Scribe's reply was posted, I understand now.

Also I agree, a character with 16 intelligence is smarter than one with 14, so it would start to show in the rolls and therefor how I roleplay the knowledge. Like a character with 14 I might go "I remember reading in a book once that Kobolds often serve a dragon and by looking at their armor you can infer the type of dragon, so we should be careful cause I think they might be serving a black dragon." while one with 16 would likely have more specific knowledge and say it out like "These kobolds are using a South Eastern design in their armor, which is not native to here, and are using black and gold elements and a draconic symbol for acid, therefor I think that they must be serving a Black Dragon that has recently moved into this forest."

Last edited by CJMPinger; 24/02/21 03:48 AM.
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I dont play to the degree where a +1 modifier is changing how I RP, but thats just me. laugh

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Originally Posted by Scribe
I dont play to the degree where a +1 modifier is changing how I RP, but thats just me. laugh

Its less the +1 it gives and more how the numbers compare, I would consider a 13 smarter than a 12 even if both only give a +1 mechanically. However the higher you get, the more drastic. At 16 I would consider you very smart and above I would consider it getting more extreme cause 20 is the point in which you'd be considered "perfect" in that stat and at the human limit (Barbarians I think get to go past at level 20 so thats them going beyond the human limit.). So if 16 is smart, 17 is a genius. 18 is either a delver into magical secrets or a walking encyclopedia. 19 is walking library of knowledge. And 20 is, if I don't know it, I will soon enough. They can get more specific like if I play an Artificer that could be more applied to his specialty.
But this is just personal and I wouldn't say I stick hard and fast to that

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I think this just comes down to how one looks at RP.

I see the attributes as stats, crunch side. I look more at Race/Background/Class, the 'who' of my character more so than if I have 15 vs 16 in a stat.

I can see where you are coming from however, so all good. smile

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Originally Posted by Scribe
I think this just comes down to how one looks at RP.

I see the attributes as stats, crunch side. I look more at Race/Background/Class, the 'who' of my character more so than if I have 15 vs 16 in a stat.

I can see where you are coming from however, so all good. smile

And I see where you come from, it is all just different styles of play.

Last edited by CJMPinger; 24/02/21 04:53 AM.
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