I think everyone so far has hit on my main worries.
I can't really compare this to DOS 1 or 2. I had never heard of either of them before buying this EA. I bought them solely to see what everyone was talking about when they were making the comparisons between the 2 games. I never even tried DOS 1. I was unable to go deep into DOS 2 as the backstories of the NPC companions being so Gale-ishly overpowered for their introduced level broke it in a way that I simply could not continue beyond 3-5 hours of total gameplay (and about 15 restarts during that time). I think I made it off of the island twice before I just said, "Screw it. I'm done with this $#!t!"...
I fear that those of us who are long time computer RPG players and D&D purists will be left completely out in the cold. I pray that they'll take our critiques to heart and listen to our suggestions on things like party limits, the ability to run without the built in companions, and core rules implementations.
The "We gotta finish this" angle is a REAL concern... We all know that the COVID shutdowns greatly reduced their progress. I just hope that they aren't rushing to play catch-up to meet some deadline that was never disclosed to those of us outside of Larian studios now.
I really enjoy mods. Most of my other games that have been finished once unmodded and are still active for me to jump into whenever I need a fix have 200 (Skyrim) to 400 (XCOM2) mods running on them. They keep games alive for me well beyond the initial thrill and they greatly enhance my gaming experience (even if the load times are murderously slow). Right now, the game is not very mod friendly (go figure, it is still in EA and they kinda need to focus on finishing the actual game first), but I'm really hoping that it will become more mod friendly as time goes by.
I could seriously do without the romance options... like seriously... but if they're including them, then open it up a little and let the thirstier players drink deep and quench that thirst. I get it. I get a little horny too, from time to time. Sometimes it's fun to run through a game just seeing who you can bang and how. I fear that the romance will be there with too many frustrating limitations on who you can romance and how you have to go about it. I'd rather see it scrapped all together than see it remain so constrained.
I fear that the options for which path you can take and what decisions you can make will remain decidedly vanilla, Disneyesque, and watery. If you want to give us an evil option, go to those dark places that no-one likes to talk about and give us true Evil... not just wasteful, stupidly destructive, and rude. I hope that they don't force just a good or evil path either though. Let us pick a few options that are whimsical... funny even. Maybe even throw in a few options that are completely out of left field and will have us players thinking, "Why the hell did they even make that a choice?" It'll keep us on our toes.
I fear that the emphasis on the multiplayer experience will eventually leave those of us who prefer to play solo twisting in the wind.
. . . Honestly, I hold the opinion that DOS1 is a better game than DOS2 in everything but the cheeky writing and the combat. I enjoyed the latter half of the first game way more than the second. Especially the ice realm chapter which felt like a true adventure, wandering through a frozen kingdom looking for warmth and shelter, having to fight and move with the threat of a persistent slowing effect without any nearby heat source throughout. That was probably my favorite part of both games. DOS2 environments were rather samey in comparison.
I completely agree. DOS1 is superior to DOS2 in everything except graphics. Yes DOS1 cheeky writing that might not appeal . . . however the story was much better put together than the total mess that was DOS2. And everything about the DOS1 combat was better, with a wonderful balanced system and hand crafted encounters.
That is one of the things I love about BG3 . . . despite various warts . . . the combat system is much closer to DOS1 than the mess of DOS2.
My only 'worry' about BG3 is for the story. If Larian completes a compelling main story (and side stories for the companions), then the combat, environments and whatever else won't matter. I'll enjoy it. If the story is rubbish, then I'm not going to care regardless of how good the combat is. Its ALL about the story!
The only thing that stopped me from wholly liking DOS1 was the randomized conversation system with your companions. It drove my OCD nuts. But the rest of DOS1 was a wholly enjoyable and challenging tactical turn based RPG, and infinitely more enjoyable than the slogfest of overbore acting and writing that is DOS2. I hate DOS2. One of my least liked RPGs EVER. I've been playing RPGs on PC since Betrayal of Krondor.
BG3 is turning in to a DOS2 clone, and the people who call us crazy for pointing that out frustrate the absolute shit out of me because those cheerleaders are the ones Larian is listening to.
DOS 2 is a severed flawed game and I could never understand how it got that much praise.
I hoped that BG3 would be created based on the originals mechanic rather DOS 2, which was not the case.
Larian is not listening to feedback and my fear is that they continue to do so, as they did in DOS2 EA.
If changes were not made in the first 6 months of EA development, chances are that we will not see many changes going forward.
Not trying to attack you, but if you don't believe that they listened at all in the past and that they have not been listening thus far... why even be a part of the EA and be posting feedback? Just asking. I know that they aren't likely to do exactly what I, personally, want them to do... but I have to have faith that they are listening and are taking all of our feedback into account. I have to believe that whatever game emerges from the other side of all this, that it will be infinitely better than it would have been without our input as a whole. I just... I have to.
Pillars of Eternity 1 was loved, but then in Pillars of Eternity 2, you had the same type of crap talking as I see in here alot, verbatim. Lack of immersion, linear, Poor development of classes, Poorly developed/implemented game mechanics...I mean any of that sounding familiar? All that even though it has a 89% rating. But the band keeps playing lol. Now it seems that same record is going on here. My guess would be sometimes people just want to hate on something, and they just rotate the same kind of post on different RPG forums. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of legit, well thought out critiques in regards to actual balance issues. But then you have the same old group of people that want to tear it down, or have some hate on for Larian. I guess it is the edgelord thing to do...
Pillars 2 improved on just about every technical aspect that people found issue with in Pillars 1, but then slapped on these tacky and immersion breaking ship sequences and colour by number romance triangles that had nothing to do with the main story.
Pillars 1 is one of my favourite RPG of all time, right up there with BG1/2 and Chrono Trigger.
There are many mechanics that were established by BG and is standard for CRPGs that Larian chose to not implement.
Like what? I genuinely can't think of any, besides real time combat. Again i never finished BG2, it felt too clunky to play when i tried and i dropped it.
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
And yes, BG2 does many things better than BG3 at the moment even being 20 years old. And that is the alarming factor.
Again, like what? Give me an example.
the designation "C" RPG was literally instituted after the release of BG2 to differentiate it from the gold box and "J" RPG coming across consoles from Japan.
BG2 literally established the CRPG genre, and it's fundamentals were carried forward in practically EVERY story based RPG that followed it.
Bioware's RTwP system is the precursor to the weapon wheel, which is one of the MOST immersive additions to action RPG and FPS games in history. They evolved their RTwP system for DA:O and Mass Effect.
Literally fundamentally ground breaking game design that feulled the entire genre's development for the next two decades.
In my opinion, NONE of Larian's products has ever had this kind of impact.
3) The chain/unchain movement system remains at launch. Not only is this system clumsy to use without offering deep benefits, I am personally of the mindset that this movement system unbalances combat for a certain segment of players. Simply put, if you're a new player or a player who can't be bothered fighting the chain system to move your characters carefully (spread them out, in formation, etc), chances are you'll start every fight in a highly disadvantageous position (clumped together on lower ground).
Yeah if there’s one thing that’s utterly baffling, it’s this. I feel like I’m fighting the controls and UI half the time whenever I transition from any other game to one of Larian’s turn based games. And it likely only exists because of multiplayer, but I ask if it’s it isn’t even possible to come up with a better solution. It’s been what, 7 years since the first DOS game?
It’s the one thing about their games that I’d say is consistently legendarily bad.
the designation "C" RPG was literally instituted after the release of BG2 to differentiate it from the gold box and "J" RPG coming across consoles from Japan.
BG2 literally established the CRPG genre, and it's fundamentals were carried forward in practically EVERY story based RPG that followed it.
Google says it was first coined in the 70s, but i won't argue because i don't know that much about gaming history.
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
Bioware's RTwP system is the precursor to the weapon wheel, which is one of the MOST immersive additions to action RPG and FPS games in history. They evolved their RTwP system for DA:O and Mass Effect.
Sounds somewhat far fetched, but again won't argue since i'm not an historian. And this game doesn't use RtwP.
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
In my opinion, NONE of Larian's products has ever had this kind of impact.
And none of modern FPS have the impact of DOOM. DOOM did it by being "first" widely played FPS. It refined the formula and launched a genre.
There are many mechanics that were established by BG and is standard for CRPGs that Larian chose to not implement.
Like what? I genuinely can't think of any, besides real time combat. Again i never finished BG2, it felt too clunky to play when i tried and i dropped it.
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
And yes, BG2 does many things better than BG3 at the moment even being 20 years old. And that is the alarming factor.
Again, like what? Give me an example.
Objectively : party control UI (BG3 is the clunky game here), day/night cycle, freedom of exploring (whereas DOS2/BG3 locks you in huge maps in every Act without allowing to return to previous areas), immersion cohesion (no camp teleportation). All of that pretty standard for CRPGs, except Larian's.
Subjectively (with some degree of agreement): writing/tone, atmosphere. RtWP for many.
the designation "C" RPG was literally instituted after the release of BG2 to differentiate it from the gold box and "J" RPG coming across consoles from Japan.
BG2 literally established the CRPG genre, and it's fundamentals were carried forward in practically EVERY story based RPG that followed it.
Bioware's RTwP system is the precursor to the weapon wheel, which is one of the MOST immersive additions to action RPG and FPS games in history. They evolved their RTwP system for DA:O and Mass Effect.
Literally fundamentally ground breaking game design that feulled the entire genre's development for the next two decades.
In my opinion, NONE of Larian's products has ever had this kind of impact.
It is far too early to say something like that. cRPGs in general have been out of the way since BG2’s success, due to many studios outright failing to capitalize on its success. I think the only game directly inspired by BG2 that enjoyed mainstream appeal was Dragon Age Origins, and they quickly swerved right off the road immediately afterwards.
DOS2 turned a lot of heads. When it released, I thought it’d end up being a new turning point for the future of tactical turn based games. But I also knew it would take some time before we would see the results of that.
And a sign finally showed up last week. Have you heard of the recently announced Switch game that’s currently called Project Triangle Strategy? It’s being made by Square Enix and modeled after Matsuno’s Final Fantasy Tactics/Tactics Ogre games, and one of its main gameplay features is quite literally DOS2’s field effects. And it being a Square Enix game, I wouldn’t be surprised if some overzealous fans started claiming that Triangle Strategy invented the concept...
(I love Matsuno’s games, his writing is on a whole other level from the rest of the jRPG devs, though sadly he’s not on the project. Although I’m pretty convinced he is working on an unannounced Tactics game too. FFXVI is being written by people that are essentially his disciples too, which is why I have far higher hopes for that game compared to the convoluted forest fires that Nomura’s games tend to turn into.)
It is far too early to say something like that. cRPGs in general have been out of the way since BG2’s success, due to many studios outright failing to capitalize on its success. I think the only game directly inspired by BG2 that enjoyed mainstream appeal was Dragon Age Origins, and they quickly swerved right off the road immediately afterwards.
DOS2 turned a lot of heads. When it released, I thought it’d end up being a new turning point for the future of tactical turn based games. But I also knew it would take some time before we would see the results of that.
And a sign finally showed up last week. Have you heard of the recently announced Switch game that’s currently called Project Triangle Strategy? It’s being made by Square Enix and modeled after Matsuno’s Final Fantasy Tactics/Tactics Ogre games, and one of its main gameplay features is quite literally DOS2’s field effects. And it being a Square Enix game, I wouldn’t be surprised if some overzealous fans started claiming that Triangle Strategy invented the concept...
(I love Matsuno’s games, his writing is on a whole other level from the rest of the jRPG devs, though sadly he’s not on the project. Although I’m pretty convinced he is working on an unannounced Tactics game too.)
From what little I saw, the field effects in PTS look pretty neat too. I like how the structures collapse when they burn down.
And I should clarify the above somewhat, words get used and changed over time. yes "computer RPG" has been around for as long as MUDDS, but it's CURRENT and COMMON usage evolved from the conflation between Japanese styled RPGs and Gold Box styled RPGs.
cRPG aRPG jRPG
all became common usage to differentiate the various motifs of the RPG genre. cRPG evokes Baldur's Gate, Ultima Underworld, et al. aRPG evokes Diablo, Titan's Quest, et al. jRPG FInal Fantasies, Chrono Trigger et al.
This is not me making this up. This is common vernacular in the industry.
Combats are fun in BG3 but for a few hours. I'm sure I'll get bore before the end of the game (I already get bored before the end of the EA).
Maybe it's cool in MP because you're playing with friends... But in solo combats are very limited, pre-determined by few mechanics and you have to use the same tactics over and over again.
Combats are fun in BG3 but for a few hours. I'm sure I'll get bore before the end of the game (I already get bored before the end of the EA).
Maybe it's cool in MP because you're playing with friends... But in solo combats are very limited, pre-determined by few mechanics and you have to use the same tactics over and over again.
Honestly, MP combats sound even worse. Like, rn I have 4 turns per round, and waiting for each enemy is already tedious. In MP, I'll only get 1-2 turns per round, and I'll also have to wait for my friends to make decisions about their actions... It will likely be more fun because of the company, but combats will take soooo long.
My worries regarding the final game are identical to my current gripes with the EA, after patch 4 and the panel it seems that what we see now in EA is more or less what we'll get - plus content and minus (some) bugs, hopefully. I've read somewhere that they changed DOS2 (or was it 1?) rather dramatically during the EA, but that is clearly not happening with BG3.
So: 1. Combat system 2. Abundance of dice rolls (RNG) outside combat + uncreative/boring failures. I mean they change/ignore many parts of the ruleset that might've actually helped the game and at the same time make sure THIS is implemented in the most obnoxious way possible for a cRPG with quicksave+quickload functionality? Why? The designers of the original two games really knew what to keep and what to toss compared to this, IMHO. 3.-6. in no particular order (kinda related): Camera controls, character+party controls, interface, inventory management 7. Larianization and/or ignorance of everything D&D and Forgotten Realms, including stuff established in BG1/2 (not that D&D or FR as wholes are very consistent) 8. Dating sim. Though a well-written & well-scripted romance is welcome, so far it seems that Larian is going with the "quantity, fan service & attainability > quality" approach. I guess I'm getting too old and a sex scene is not large enough a motivation for approval-hoarding, heh...
My worries regarding the final game are identical to my current gripes with the EA, after patch 4 and the panel it seems that what we see now in EA is more or less what we'll get - plus content and minus (some) bugs, hopefully. I've read somewhere that they changed DOS2 (or was it 1?) rather dramatically during the EA, but that is clearly not happening with BG3.
I just can't take comments like this seriously when your not even 4 months into alpha. I mean we have no idea of what is in the works in regards to combat adjustment, or any of the other issues. For all we know, patch 5 will address it all, or patch 6....Or yes, it is always possible that they won't be addressed. But to try and act as though something as intricate as combat mechanics can be fixed and done in 4 months is just not even realistic.
I do doubt that camera controls are going to be fixed, they seem pretty standard. Using mouse/keyboard it doesn't seem to be that much of a problem, though I don't use a controller so I can't attest to issues with that. I also think overall, the romance is ok. But I would like some examples of games that has done it so much better than Larian is. Because it seems pretty industry standard for companion romance options. Hell I give them credit for having the cajones to make that Minthara cinematic and not doing the "lets do it with our armor on". Not to mention, they have to make all the romance options varied and available. Because otherwise they would be accused of not showing representation.
Combats are fun in BG3 but for a few hours. I'm sure I'll get bore before the end of the game (I already get bored before the end of the EA).
Maybe it's cool in MP because you're playing with friends... But in solo combats are very limited, pre-determined by few mechanics and you have to use the same tactics over and over again.
Honestly, MP combats sound even worse. Like, rn I have 4 turns per round, and waiting for each enemy is already tedious. In MP, I'll only get 1-2 turns per round, and I'll also have to wait for my friends to make decisions about their actions... It will likely be more fun because of the company, but combats will take soooo long.
Just depends on the players, you'll get time in-between turns to plan ahead what you want to do for your turn. So generally people that prep will make the game go faster, unless you have a friend that takes 2 minutes deciding on one ability/action...but then you also have community members that want to stretch out combat for reaction abilities, so you get pop ups in the middle of the screen for those. super great like real great.
Anyway, my main worry would be story related. More extreme cringe moments, off the top of my head at the end party, the evil druid shows up in the corner for no reason other than to have the couple get justice for what happened to their kid. Who would invite this lady to the party or why would she ever EVER show up to this party, it's a completely stupid scenario.
The other part would be in DOS2 custom characters felt lifeless or less important than the premade characters. It has been about 2-3 years since I touched that game but I do generally remember getting that over all feeling between the two.
