Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Undermining systemic freedom through rigid reactivity

That is subject I haven't seen discussed yet.

Larian games are very systemic and as such allow for many opportunities for breaking quests, or progressing in unintented way. Everyonce in a while in D:OS2 I found the game failed to recognise progression, because I acted in a way the quest didn't expect. I think that tying reactivity to quest progression is very dangerous in a game like that.

The best example I had from D:OS2 was Shadow Prince vs. Mothertree quests which required you to choose one over another. I picked up deathfog crate from Prince, then killed him, and then went on to kill Mothertree. The game failed to recognise that, and quest remained incomplete - in games minds I didn't do anything.

Similar thing happened to me in BG3 - as it turns out I didn't get a quest to steal the idol as I angered the child who gives the quests, but I did decide to steal the Idol myself - as from what I was hearing it just seemed like a good idea before leaving to search for archdruid. Also I was playing a thief so it seemed like an interesting exerciese.

For one, I thought the robbery was artificially gated. Even if I used existing systems to steal Idol while invisible the game still seemed to somehow know that I had it. In a game with so many ways to obscure vision and become invisible it felt like BS. I eventually managed to grab the Idol via a container exploit but it still failed to recognise the Idol wasn't there, cause it didn't trigger intended quest progression.

I think in games like that, the reactivity and progression needs to be more systematic then scripted - game should recognise if Idol is or isn't there, it's disapperance should trigger search for it, rather then NPC running up straight to you and saying "you stole it!" even if he didn't see anything. State of NPC should be tracked via, well, their state, rather then quest progression ticking off.

I don't know how common those issues are (in general I am not best in pushing systems to their limit) but even in my conservative playstyle I found holes. How is your experience? Is BG3 in general good in tracking your actions, or does it fail to adapt to freedom it offers through rigid scripting?

Hmm, I certainly recognize what you're saying from D:OS2. I absolutely did not in any way attempt to "break" the game, but I found myself on numerous occasions confused as to why quests / quest givers were acting strange - and the most common examples in my case where finding objects / killing enemies that I had already encountered, or, doing the quest line unintentionally in the wrong order, or, quest givers acting strange when more than one number of criteria was met for conversations. Best example I can remember is that I couldn't at all do anything with the Demon Dude in the last act because something uniquely triggered his conversation once I got there, and after that he never even addressed as to why he had summoned me in the first place and refused to give me the allied-quest that he is supposed to offer...

I found that PoE dealt with this a lot better and not once during the entire game session did I feel like something wasn't working as intended, quest-wise. Despite me being *very* confused as how I would prioritize in the PoE2:D questline, so I did things in a... Rather random order. I played both PoE and PoE2:D for the last couple of weeks and not once did the quests in any way break unless you actually did something that was a legitimate criteria to breaking the quest (like killing the quest givers or important NPCs). A great example that comes to mind are bounties, I simply did all bounties unaware of their bounty state while exploring because I noticed that they had interesting loot - and much, much later I turned in *all* of the heads for full bounties. While this is hardly how the encounters were supposed to happen (and it is rather weird from a RP perspective that I went around carrying random heads), I was just happy that I did not miss out on rewards for a job that I had completed.

Not that this is quite the same as what you're saying, but it came to mind. If the NPCs (or guards, in certain other games) react to theft without witnessing it (*cough* has happened in D:OS2) and even as accurately as saying "YOU stole it", then I'd make a bug report. It feels like the NPCs, like you said, should react to the relic being gone - but they shouldn't be able to just without effort stare the PC down as the thief (unless they have a reputation for doing so? Not sure if BG3 have, or will have, a reputation system like PoE). I'd say, in this particular scenario, that them going rampage at the "outsiders" (read thieflings) would be a more logical reaction. Maybe the PC will see the druid guards yelling at random thieflings for stealing their artifact and maybe they'll stop you to search you where's you get some options in order to attempt... I don't know, maybe slight of hand skill-check to hide it, talk your way out of it, admit you took it or lie and say that you just found it (and later can specify whenever you want to frame someone or if you, less believable, just "found" it) and want to turn it in. If you even get some bonus "reputation" with the druids for "resolving" this (aka. lie), then it would play in the hands of evil-decisions-gives-profit-when-done-right.

... I mean, my proposal probably didn't make that much sense at all - but I just feel like it would at least be a more appropriate solution than the druids running at ya screaming "YOU TOOK IT!". However I do recognize the amount of work this would require.

... Lastly, you answer your question - I cannot remember BG3 at any point not tracking my actions properly... Yet, anyways. But I have really been making the most vanilla cookie-cutter decisions so far so that is hardly impressive. :')

PoE is a bit different beast, as it doesn't offer nearly as much freedom. PoE2 offers freedom when it comes to how you interact with the enviroment. On top of that areas are clearly designed to be their own individual bubbles - that said, yeah game does a pretty good job in having lines and responses set up for whatever path players take.

I feel Larian design is closer to Fallout1 or 2 - with quest being far less structured - us getting objectives, rather then quest threads to follow. NPCs and items are always present rather then spawning when quests demand it. Games actively encourage and reward thinking outside of the box. While PoE2 has, lets say pickpocketing, it's usualy useless, unless quests decite to use it is. Also things like day and light cicle are ususaly irrelevant, unless quest is scripted to use it. Larian's world is more consistant and more systemic. You have more reasons to take things into your own hands, because it seems like a logical thing to do, rather then waiting for story line to develop.

Overall, BG3 feels more directed then D:OS2 was - and personally I think it works better. Constantly, in D:OS2 I would find solutions to quests I never started, and the whole thing felt chaotic and wrong. I didn't have nearly as many issues in BG3 so far. The idol was one that popped up, another was combat with drow lady, which I am not quite sure if it was intended or not - I feel like I broke something, but I am not sure what. But it could work as intended.

Still, the Idol situation worried me - the game didn't recognise the action of stealing the Idol, meaning whenever the disappearance of Idol is recognised is not tied to it's location - which I think is dangerous. There more quests are designed that way, the bigger chance of players will do something devs didn't account for. Ideally, if you do something in an unintended way or order, the game should be set up to still recognise and roll with that. Of course, the more defined story and characters are, the trickier it is to keep reactions believable. Therefore, companies like Bioware or Pillars stick to more rigid scripts with handcrafted solutions - which can be a problem in itself. I know there is at least one quest in PoE2 where choices on offer felt rather arbitrary.

I very much agree, but got little to add except for what has already been said. I hope Larian reads your post and takes it to heart.