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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
How could the sales of the game be related to mechanics players didn't experienced at all about before buying it ?

The sales of the game comes from : Larian's new game + D&D new game + Baldur's Gate name. That's what the hype was about.

No one knew the deep mechanics of the game before playing it and whatever they had done, they would have sold the game the same.

They just said that it would be as close as the ruleset as possible, that's all what we knew before buying.

I don't know about you, but I read the reviews before purchasing the game. I knew it was not a 1:1 5e ruleset ahead of time, that Larian had changed things up and I was perfectly fine with it.

I bought the game "minute 1" (day 1) because it's Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is the best RPG of all time so I want BG3 to be the best RPG of all time.

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1 but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 01/03/21 10:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I bought the game "minute 1" (day 1) because it's Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is the best RPG of all time so I want BG3 to be the best RPG of all time.

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1 but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.

Which in a way proves my point about name recognition. I am not a fan of some of the things that are happening. Personally, I think it is a joke a Druid in bear form can climb at ladder. Haven't seen any kangaroos yet, but I am hoping (sorry a little sarcasm), fast travel doesn't really bother me, though I do wish maybe there was a chance to get engaged in a random encounter like in DA:O when using it. As for the level of difficulty, honestly I don't find it that difficult at all, if anything I wish they made the combat more difficult, and no I do not use barrels at all before you say it.

My whole point being that Larian is going to maintain surfaces, maintain barrels (I mean it is in all their games afterall), I actually like the verticality, but you can counter it easy enough. I mean there is some things personally I would like changed, that I feel make the game better. But I don't expect them to communicate what they are, or are not considering. I just don't understand where this whole idea that a developer is required to communicate their every intention to me as a customer. I really don't know any game developer who devotes their time to communicating that information in public forums. Generally I get their answers in patch notes, or very rarely in perhaps a latest news post.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I bought the game "minute 1" (day 1) because it's Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is the best RPG of all time so I want BG3 to be the best RPG of all time.

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1 but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.

Which in a way proves my point about name recognition. I am not a fan of some of the things that are happening. Personally, I think it is a joke a Druid in bear form can climb at ladder. Haven't seen any kangaroos yet, but I am hoping (sorry a little sarcasm), fast travel doesn't really bother me, though I do wish maybe there was a chance to get engaged in a random encounter like in DA:O when using it. As for the level of difficulty, honestly I don't find it that difficult at all, if anything I wish they made the combat more difficult, and no I do not use barrels at all before you say it.

My whole point being that Larian is going to maintain surfaces, maintain barrels (I mean it is in all their games afterall), I actually like the verticality, but you can counter it easy enough. I mean there is some things personally I would like changed, that I feel make the game better. But I don't expect them to communicate what they are, or are not considering. I just don't understand where this whole idea that a developer is required to communicate their every intention to me as a customer. I really don't know any game developer who devotes their time to communicating that information in public forums. Generally I get their answers in patch notes, or very rarely in perhaps a latest news post.
idk, still dont really get what your points are or how they are really constructive to a thread in the 'suggestions & feedback' forum space, but i guess thanks for still posting with us into the ether fam wink 20 pages long and counting

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[ redacted to shorten quote ]

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1
but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.
Well said ! Loved your colorful description of the combat oddities. :P Though I do not mind the surfaces (not to be confused with the fire barrels in our backpacks).
Same here. I adapted my expectations, took a break, in order to just enjoy it for what it is. And there is still nearly a year before release.

Nb : I am currently making characters for my first playthrough of Icewind Dale : Enhanced Edition and they really butchered some of the rules big time (eg. Wisdom does not help some Saving Throws), with a lot of homebrew too. I hear a lot of positive feedback still about this IWD video game adventure. // This does not mean I like Larian's changes to the combat rules and spells.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I bought the game "minute 1" (day 1) because it's Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is the best RPG of all time so I want BG3 to be the best RPG of all time.

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1 but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.

Which in a way proves my point about name recognition. I am not a fan of some of the things that are happening. Personally, I think it is a joke a Druid in bear form can climb at ladder. Haven't seen any kangaroos yet, but I am hoping (sorry a little sarcasm), fast travel doesn't really bother me, though I do wish maybe there was a chance to get engaged in a random encounter like in DA:O when using it. As for the level of difficulty, honestly I don't find it that difficult at all, if anything I wish they made the combat more difficult, and no I do not use barrels at all before you say it.

My whole point being that Larian is going to maintain surfaces, maintain barrels (I mean it is in all their games afterall), I actually like the verticality, but you can counter it easy enough. I mean there is some things personally I would like changed, that I feel make the game better. But I don't expect them to communicate what they are, or are not considering. I just don't understand where this whole idea that a developer is required to communicate their every intention to me as a customer. I really don't know any game developer who devotes their time to communicating that information in public forums. Generally I get their answers in patch notes, or very rarely in perhaps a latest news post.


They are not "required" to do anything, but I seriously hoped they would go above and beyond in all regards, including communication with the playtesters and fans. Do you not at least agree that communication would be preferable to radio silence? o_ô

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I bought the game "minute 1" (day 1) because it's Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is the best RPG of all time so I want BG3 to be the best RPG of all time.

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1 but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.

Which in a way proves my point about name recognition. I am not a fan of some of the things that are happening. Personally, I think it is a joke a Druid in bear form can climb at ladder. Haven't seen any kangaroos yet, but I am hoping (sorry a little sarcasm), fast travel doesn't really bother me, though I do wish maybe there was a chance to get engaged in a random encounter like in DA:O when using it. As for the level of difficulty, honestly I don't find it that difficult at all, if anything I wish they made the combat more difficult, and no I do not use barrels at all before you say it.

My whole point being that Larian is going to maintain surfaces, maintain barrels (I mean it is in all their games afterall), I actually like the verticality, but you can counter it easy enough. I mean there is some things personally I would like changed, that I feel make the game better. But I don't expect them to communicate what they are, or are not considering. I just don't understand where this whole idea that a developer is required to communicate their every intention to me as a customer. I really don't know any game developer who devotes their time to communicating that information in public forums. Generally I get their answers in patch notes, or very rarely in perhaps a latest news post.


They are not "required" to do anything, but I seriously hoped they would go above and beyond in all regards, including communication with the playtesters and fans. Do you not at least agree that communication would be preferable to radio silence? o_ô

I would, but I have also been in forums where the developers did not give the answers that some people wanted, and got death threats and doxxed. So I can understand their hesitation to possibly put their people through that. Also, this is not beta or alpha, it is early access so I see it as slightly different than playtesters. So I can patiently wait until I see if they changed some things in patch notes or latest news. I mean they addressed and modified the height modifiers which people were discussing, with no mention at all. So that at least shows they are getting informed of requests.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I bought the game "minute 1" (day 1) because it's Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is the best RPG of all time so I want BG3 to be the best RPG of all time.

I'm perfectly fine that the game is not a 1:1 but I was far from thinking that the game would be like this on many things.

From silly mechanics (i.e dipping in a candle, cows that climb ladders, kangaroos, eating pig head while fighting,...) to world design (no/useless worldmap, TP to fast travel, theme park feeling, such a resting system/camp), to combats (victory in verticality, tons of surfaces, no tactics at all), to itemization, to this random mmorpg style UI, to this ridiculous level of difficulty,...

Seriously, I would never have imagined this^^

But I'm still here playing the game after so many hours so it probably means that I'm fine with the game on many things and that I still hope it can suits more some of my expectations at release.

Which in a way proves my point about name recognition. I am not a fan of some of the things that are happening. Personally, I think it is a joke a Druid in bear form can climb at ladder. Haven't seen any kangaroos yet, but I am hoping (sorry a little sarcasm), fast travel doesn't really bother me, though I do wish maybe there was a chance to get engaged in a random encounter like in DA:O when using it. As for the level of difficulty, honestly I don't find it that difficult at all, if anything I wish they made the combat more difficult, and no I do not use barrels at all before you say it.

My whole point being that Larian is going to maintain surfaces, maintain barrels (I mean it is in all their games afterall), I actually like the verticality, but you can counter it easy enough. I mean there is some things personally I would like changed, that I feel make the game better. But I don't expect them to communicate what they are, or are not considering. I just don't understand where this whole idea that a developer is required to communicate their every intention to me as a customer. I really don't know any game developer who devotes their time to communicating that information in public forums. Generally I get their answers in patch notes, or very rarely in perhaps a latest news post.


They are not "required" to do anything, but I seriously hoped they would go above and beyond in all regards, including communication with the playtesters and fans. Do you not at least agree that communication would be preferable to radio silence? o_ô

I would, but I have also been in forums where the developers did not give the answers that some people wanted, and got death threats and doxxed. So I can understand their hesitation to possibly put their people through that. Also, this is not beta or alpha, it is early access so I see it as slightly different than playtesters. So I can patiently wait until I see if they changed some things in patch notes or latest news. I mean they addressed and modified the height modifiers which people were discussing, with no mention at all. So that at least shows they are getting informed of requests.


I can be patient too, I just have *hopes*. =)
I truly do hope they choose to communicate more, because I would love to know whether or not our input even matters to them. Like, is there even a point in suggesting some things, or are their minds entirely made up? Would love to know that.

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Did they remove advantage rolls from high ground attacks? I still seem to get advantage - unless its now from somehing else?


Originally Posted by Pandemonica
....

I mean they addressed and modified the height modifiers which people were discussing, with no mention at all. So that at least shows they are getting informed of requests.

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Originally Posted by booboo
Did they remove advantage rolls from high ground attacks? I still seem to get advantage - unless its now from somehing else?


Originally Posted by Pandemonica
....

I mean they addressed and modified the height modifiers which people were discussing, with no mention at all. So that at least shows they are getting informed of requests.

There was a discussion thread in regards to this after patch 4. They did not remove it, but from others tests they have adjusted it.

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Ah ok - interesting! I'll dig it up - thanks!

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Originally Posted by booboo
Ah ok - interesting! I'll dig it up - thanks!
It got merged into the feedback thread. Here is the starting post: undocumented combat change.

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Was thinking about Larian's homebrew Shove and how this would interact with the Polearm Mastery feat. Couldn't you just use your bonus attack to shove an enemy outside reach and every time the enemy comes back within the reach of your weapon, you get a free opportunity of attack? With the Sentinel feat also stopping the enemy from closing distance to within their own weapons reach?

How wouldn't combat devolve to something kin to a pinball game unless Larian makes evermore homebrew to accommodate their cheese?

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Was thinking about Larian's homebrew Shove and how this would interact with the Polearm Mastery feat. Couldn't you just use your bonus attack to shove an enemy outside reach and every time the enemy comes back within the reach of your weapon, you get a free opportunity of attack? With the Sentinel feat also stopping the enemy from closing distance to within their own weapons reach?

How wouldn't combat devolve to something kin to a pinball game unless Larian makes evermore homebrew to accommodate their cheese?
Possibly an issue, but only if there were only one enemy and you could hit them reliably and they didn't have a ranged attack and their top priority was to get close to/move past your character (instead of another). It seems like a specific enough situation that a little cheese probably isn't a big deal.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Possibly an issue, but only if there were only one enemy and you could hit them reliably and they didn't have a ranged attack and their top priority was to get close to/move past your character (instead of another). It seems like a specific enough situation that a little cheese probably isn't a big deal.

This isn't really all that specific and the cheese isn't really that little. Assuming your shove didn't cause a fall that outright killed the enemy (which is not acceptable cheese in of itself - especially since your halfling can push a 300 kilo ogre, or an 8 legged super giant spider, like a feather/Bambi on ice, but not the other way around), you would get an attack in exchange for a bonus action - unless the enemy change targets. Which it shouldn't as it would require omniscient meta-knowledge. And even so there would need to be an alternative melee target reachable in melee without triggering opportunity attacks in the process. Or the enemy would need a viable ranged alternative (forcing a melee monster to go with a clearly inferior ranged option pretty much wins any fight). Dueling the deadliest swordsman in all of Faerun? The player wins unless the swordsman also happens to be Robin Hood.

Larian would need a much more advanced AI capable of learning tactics to adapt to the player (or cheat with omniscience). And this is just one of likely hundreds of things negatively affected by the cheese.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Possibly an issue, but only if there were only one enemy and you could hit them reliably and they didn't have a ranged attack and their top priority was to get close to/move past your character (instead of another). It seems like a specific enough situation that a little cheese probably isn't a big deal.

This isn't really all that specific and the cheese isn't really that little. Assuming your shove didn't cause a fall that outright killed the enemy (which is not acceptable cheese in of itself - especially since your halfling can push a 300 kilo ogre, or an 8 legged super giant spider, like a feather/Bambi on ice, but not the other way around), you would get an attack in exchange for a bonus action - unless the enemy change targets. Which it shouldn't as it would require omniscient meta-knowledge. And even so there would need to be an alternative melee target reachable in melee without triggering opportunity attacks in the process. Or the enemy would need a viable ranged alternative (forcing a melee monster to go with a clearly inferior ranged option pretty much wins any fight). Dueling the deadliest swordsman in all of Faerun? The player wins unless the swordsman also happens to be Robin Hood.

Larian would need a much more advanced AI capable of learning tactics to adapt to the player (or cheat with omniscience). And this is just one of likely hundreds of things negatively affected by the cheese.
Various thoughts:
1) I would love it if shove were changed. It should be a full action. I'm not sure (in the video game) how success/failure works under the hood or how far you can push someone. I don't use it often. It seems like you can probably push farther than you should be able to.
2) Depending on the enemy, if they have decent wisdom and spend any time watching you, they should be able to change their strategy. An enemy doing the same dumb thing over and over and expecting a different result is usually a poorly designed enemy.
3) Most fights in this game involve multiple enemies. You might be able to keep one away from you, but you only get one bonus action and you only get one reaction, so you're not going to stop their friends from swarming you.
4) In order to get those feats, you're sacrificing ASIs - you don't just get to take them for free. So two feats that, when combined, feel a little cheesy in a very specific combat situation vs an increase of up to four in ability modifiers, which tend to have more general utility. Doesn't seem like a big deal. I'd rather take the ASIs.
5) If you dual wield, you can already get an attack in exchange for a bonus action, without all the complexity. It's a little weaker, but it's not nothing.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Was thinking about Larian's homebrew Shove and how this would interact with the Polearm Mastery feat. Couldn't you just use your bonus attack to shove an enemy outside reach and every time the enemy comes back within the reach of your weapon, you get a free opportunity of attack? With the Sentinel feat also stopping the enemy from closing distance to within their own weapons reach?

How wouldn't combat devolve to something kin to a pinball game unless Larian makes evermore homebrew to accommodate their cheese?
It is possible in PnP too. Only difference is in PnP you replace one of your "blade" (assuming you are using a glaive) attack with shove. Here you replace your blunt side attack. Damage difference no mor then 6 (cause blade is d10 and blunt side is d4).

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Another thing that worries me is how some of the new spells and abilities, for instance, are implemented. The land druid has access to forms it shouldn't have access to, the bear form is quite nerfed for the moon druid, and you cannot activate spells you previously cast, like Moonbeam, while wildshaped. And the Flaming Sphere spell is really weird in how that works contra how it works in PNP. o_o

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Originally Posted by Dastan McKay
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Was thinking about Larian's homebrew Shove and how this would interact with the Polearm Mastery feat. Couldn't you just use your bonus attack to shove an enemy outside reach and every time the enemy comes back within the reach of your weapon, you get a free opportunity of attack? With the Sentinel feat also stopping the enemy from closing distance to within their own weapons reach?

How wouldn't combat devolve to something kin to a pinball game unless Larian makes evermore homebrew to accommodate their cheese?
It is possible in PnP too. Only difference is in PnP you replace one of your "blade" (assuming you are using a glaive) attack with shove. Here you replace your blunt side attack. Damage difference no mor then 6 (cause blade is d10 and blunt side is d4).

That is simply not true. When you shove, you can't attack with the blunt side of a glaive or polearm.
Here is the description of the feat "Polearm Master":
When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.

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Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Dastan McKay
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Was thinking about Larian's homebrew Shove and how this would interact with the Polearm Mastery feat. Couldn't you just use your bonus attack to shove an enemy outside reach and every time the enemy comes back within the reach of your weapon, you get a free opportunity of attack? With the Sentinel feat also stopping the enemy from closing distance to within their own weapons reach?

How wouldn't combat devolve to something kin to a pinball game unless Larian makes evermore homebrew to accommodate their cheese?
It is possible in PnP too. Only difference is in PnP you replace one of your "blade" (assuming you are using a glaive) attack with shove. Here you replace your blunt side attack. Damage difference no mor then 6 (cause blade is d10 and blunt side is d4).

That is simply not true. When you shove, you can't attack with the blunt side of a glaive or polearm.
Here is the description of the feat "Polearm Master":
When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.
Shove is a "Special melee attack" so wouldn't it fall under the rules of Polearm Master??
Originally Posted by SRD
Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a Special melee Attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them.

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This is one of those that RAW isn't super clear because Shove is only defined as a "special melee attack", so you can say you push someone with the "stick" of your polearm (like a hockey cross-check), and that should technically qualify.

However, by RAI / Sage Advice, it shouldn't work.

Jeremy Crawford ruled that shoving isn't a melee weapon attack.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/11/are-grapple-and-shove-melee-weapon-attacks/

The Polearm Master bonus action attack triggers on "attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear" - those weapon key words implying that the bonus action is allowed when a subset of melee weapon attacks is used.

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