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The problem with the way Larian manages the party (chain/unchain), the camera controls, the characters going through the fire, the flawed inventory system, etc... The problem with all of this is that BG3 is a game to be play for hundreds of hours. And because of that, something that isn't all bad, but is not well polished, ends up irritating you. After 100 hours of having to get angry dozens of times, you inevitably start to hate the game.

So these aspects need to be polished, and we are all here to help. Larian needs to see this.

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Originally Posted by Gustavo R
The problem with the way Larian manages the party (chain/unchain), the camera controls, the characters going through the fire, the flawed inventory system, etc... The problem with all of this is that BG3 is a game to be play for hundreds of hours. And because of that, something that isn't all bad, but is not well polished, ends up irritating you. After 100 hours of having to get angry dozens of times, you inevitably start to hate the game.

So these aspects need to be polished, and we are all here to help. Larian needs to see this.

Although I have found some aspects irritating, having some unpolished issues in ALPHA really doesn't make me hate the game. If these are issue when it launches, than that is another story. Rather than let it ruin my play during ALPHA, I just learn to adapt and enjoy the game, not let little issues bother me. The chain is unwieldy, camera controls are a little goofy, but I have played much worse in released games. I wouldn't expect much better with inventory, because it is pretty much the same in all their games lol. But overall, I will hold my judgment for the release, when it is suppose to be at its final form.

Last edited by Pandemonica; 06/03/21 02:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
The problem with the way Larian manages the party (chain/unchain), the camera controls, the characters going through the fire, the flawed inventory system, etc... The problem with all of this is that BG3 is a game to be play for hundreds of hours. And because of that, something that isn't all bad, but is not well polished, ends up irritating you. After 100 hours of having to get angry dozens of times, you inevitably start to hate the game.

So these aspects need to be polished, and we are all here to help. Larian needs to see this.

Although I have found some aspects irritating, having some unpolished issues in ALPHA really doesn't make me hate the game. If these are issue when it launches, than that is another story. Rather than let it ruin my play during ALPHA, I just learn to adapt and enjoy the game, not let little issues bother me. The chain is unwieldy, camera controls are a little goofy, but I have played much worse in released games. I wouldn't expect much better with inventory, because it is pretty much the same in all their games lol. But overall, I will hold my judgment for the release, when it is suppose to be at its final form.

Hold your judgement for the release won'tt help Larian to know that you don't like how things are.

If issues aren't reported because you have assumptions for the release, they won't change anything. That's not what an EA is for.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/03/21 07:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hold your judgement for the release won'tt help Larian to know that you don't like how things are.

If issues aren't reported because you have assumptions for the release, they won't change anything. That's not what an EA is for.
I lost count of how many times this has been pointed out already, and yet there's never lack of the occasional zealot willing to scream at full lungs "Hold your judgement until release!" for the sake of damage control.
Still not sure who's that's supposed to help. No matter the context, dedicated Yes Men never contributed to make anything better.

Also, the argument "It's not good, but I've also seen worse" is not exactly a flying endorsement, nor a goal to set for. Imagine what a charming review quote typesetted on the game's box "It controls like crap, but we have played worse".


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hold your judgement for the release won'tt help Larian to know that you don't like how things are.

If issues aren't reported because you have assumptions for the release, they won't change anything. That's not what an EA is for.
I lost count of how many times this has been pointed out already, and yet there's never lack of the occasional zealot willing to scream at full lungs "Hold your judgement until release!" for the sake of damage control.
Still not sure who's that's supposed to help. No matter the context, dedicated Yes Men never contributed to make anything better.

Also, the argument "It's not good, but I've also seen worse" is not exactly a flying endorsement, nor a goal to set for. Imagine what a charming review quote typesetted on the game's box "It controls like crap, but we have played worse".

The only Zealot I see here Tuco, is you! All you do is carry on like a child because BG3 doesn't meet your reminiscent erection for a 20 year old game. Screaming and yelling in every thread about how everything sucks because it doesn't have this or that, when we don't know WHAT they will have at the end of alpha. You misrepresent what people say in emails (yes I read that email too) to try and paint Larian as some arrogant, player hating, incompetent developers with absolutely nothing constructive in your "criticisms". And then have the nerve to resort to name calling anyone that does not jump on your bandwagon. I honestly don't care if I get reprimanded by the mods, but I am sick and tired of your low brow, neckbeard, D&D elitest insults. I mean if you hate the game so much, WTF ARE YOU DOING HERE! Besides trying to tear down something that doesn't match your personal vision of "what the game should be" I am sorry how many games have you made? What is your experience in game development? Or are you just some DM wannabe loser that only gets pleasure by showing how "knowledgeable" you are, and how everyone should listen to you?

And to the mods, if you feel you have to take action on me so be it, but I am sick and tired of this posters insults, berating and aggressive tone towards anyone that disagrees with him. My ban or suspension will be well worth it.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I lost count of how many times this has been pointed out already, and yet there's never lack of the occasional zealot willing to scream at full lungs "Hold your judgement until release!" for the sake of damage control.
You were told to rein it in and that you were on a final warning, yet you manage to be confrontational and abrasive less than a day later. We can do without your brand of posting for 14 days.

Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The only Zealot I see here Tuco, is you! All you do is carry on like a child because BG3 doesn't meet your reminiscent erection for a 20 year old game. Screaming and yelling in every thread about how everything sucks because it doesn't have this or that, when we don't know WHAT they will have at the end of alpha. You misrepresent what people say in emails (yes I read that email too) to try and paint Larian as some arrogant, player hating, incompetent developers with absolutely nothing constructive in your "criticisms". And then have the nerve to resort to name calling anyone that does not jump on your bandwagon. I honestly don't care if I get reprimanded by the mods, but I am sick and tired of your low brow, neckbeard, D&D elitest insults. I mean if you hate the game so much, WTF ARE YOU DOING HERE! Besides trying to tear down something that doesn't match your personal vision of "what the game should be" I am sorry how many games have you made? What is your experience in game development? Or are you just some DM wannabe loser that only gets pleasure by showing how "knowledgeable" you are, and how everyone should listen to you?

And to the mods, if you feel you have to take action on me so be it, but I am sick and tired of this posters insults, berating and aggressive tone towards anyone that disagrees with him. My ban or suspension will be well worth it.
You have been told before to report problems to the mods rather than to wade in and get involved in a shit-flinging match. In this case, you have been caught up in the fallout as predicted/warned. Take a 3-day break to cool off.

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RIP Tuco
2014-2021
He died as he lived, being confrontational and spreading his truth. The forums won't be the same without him.

But yes, I fully agree with him and Maximuuus that now is the time to provide feedback, not after the game is fully released. Not that I think party movement in BG3 will actually be changed.

@Gustavo R makes a good point that something that is even slightly annoying will become a huge problem in a 100+ hour (not counting the expected multiple playthroughs) game.

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This was an action surge.

That's a good point but I have to say that I'm less annoyed by the chain after hundreds of hours than I was at the beginning.
I experienced it a bit years ago in DoS2 but that's not the kind of game I'm playing over and over again.

Now that I know the game and all it's cheats, I can handle every situations without being prepared. There's always something more OP to beat the ennemy (the limit is barrelmancy)... The chain annnoy me a lot but I don't really have to think and dispatch my party. I just have to go higher.

Anyway those that looks to "complain" are passionnated about the game. They probably hope more than anyone else that the game is going to be the best. They want to play it for the next 20 years like they did with the old games.

Controls are really something that matter.
Of course there are personnal preferences about a many points but the chain mechanic is not something like that.
Not sure anyone on this 28 pages said that the chain is something they really find good in the game/in DoS.

This mechanic is bad or average but never really good.
Anyone that tried both systems whatever we're talking about console or not KNOW that the chain is far from being what's best to control a party.

Tuco is a bit abrasive but he's right. We're not talking about personnal opinions here. We're talking about the core of a control scheme : control a party easily, as fast as possible and with accuracy.

The chain doesn't meet any of those basic expectations in MP or in SP.
They swapped easy, fast and precise VS characters follow you.

Characters also follow you in the other system (EE edition)
+ You can also control a character with your sticks
+ you have real formations (auto or manual)
+ you can easily select your character(s)
+ you can move them where you want without any mistake
+ the radial menu on console is way more friendly user

Everything is wrong in the chain.
- you have to disband the group each time you want to select 1 character.
- you have to disband/regroup as soon as you want to select 2 characters
- you're doing more clics than in any other systems, even those with a greater party size...
- the radial menu on console is tedious as hell
- you have sooo many miss click/miss drag and drop...

This would be awesome to hear the devs about such active thread. Just answer 2 questions... Should you reconsider the chain mechanic for BG3 or not ? Why do you think this system is better than another ?

End of the thread.

These questions gave me an idea of threads.
Let's try to shake them a bit.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/03/21 08:05 PM.
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Should we propose ideas to reduce mouse clicks & drags?

We could have:
An input to group all & ungroup all [F]
An input to portrait/character click a group together [alt + click] the portraits you want to group/ungroup
(This would only group/ungroup who was clicked on while alt was held down, so you can have 2 groups of 2 or 1 group of 3)
(Alt is nice to use because it is currently there to show the worlds tooltips, so that won't create a conflict with grouping/ungrouping)

The chain/unchain animation could play out after the clicks, or pressing the F key.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Tuco is a bit abrasive but he's right. We're not talking about personnal opinions here. We're talking about the core of a control scheme : control a party easily, as fast as possible and with accuracy.

Yeah, it's like talking with a Gith you just realize you having a conversation with someone who punches other people for a living and you adjust your expectations smile I enjoy his posts.

Quote
The chain doesn't meet any of those basic expectations in MP or in SP.

Yes, the chain has gotten better with each patch. But it's like good sauce on bad meat, the improvements can only do so much to hide the rot. I now know how to work around the chain but that just means I've given up doing things I would like to do.

Take the gate fight. Having two characters sneak into certain positions on the battlefield isn't worth it. To send one group on the hill and another sneaking in the canyon means "unchain-unchain" "chain-chain" "hide - hide - hide -hide" "select -- move Laezel and Astarian" "unchain Astarian" "move group two to hill" "move Astarian, sneak attack"

It's absurd so I just send everyone to the hill -- cast feather fall and have them jump into battle. Only possible with metagame knowledge and it doesn't allow me to use the class features of a thief.

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100%, anything that removes clicks and drags will improve the system.

This is something we can objectively observe - the current chain system simply adds too many unnecessary steps and action clutter to a player experience.

Compare a simple maneuver to movement split a party of 4 into 2 between a traditional control and putting each into different locations - (i.e. Pillars of Eternity) to BG3:

POE (4 actions):
- box drag to select 2 party members
- click to move the 2 selected to location A
- box drag to select the remaining 2 party members
- click to move the 2 selected to location B

BG3 - assuming you are controlling character 1 right now (7 actions):
- Click and drag to unchain party member 3
- Click and drag to unchain party member 4
- Click and drag to chain Member 3 and 4 back together
- Select Member 3 or 4
- Click on location A
- Select party member 1 or 2
- Click on location B

On the surface, 3 more action shouldn't be the end of the world, but there are little more subtle issues that also factor in.

For one, clicking and dragging to unchain a party member takes longer, and is more prone to input error (because you if you don't drag it far enough, it just doesn't unchain).

More importantly, the requirement to constantly shift between interacting with the portraits located at the bottom left corner, and then going back to doing something at the center of the screen, adds tons of movement inefficiency to a basic actions. Having to bring your mouse back and forth between 2 locations to issue basic movement is a subtle but incredibly annoying user experience for players. You'll never get away from all of it, but the goal is to reserve these kind of inefficiencies for rare moments, not everyday movement.

Last edited by Topgoon; 07/03/21 01:40 AM.
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I agree with OP's points but this is valuable feedback regardless of that fact.

And I'm surprised how some people try to turn this into a debate.
He is stating his feedback with proposed alternatives. You are free to make another thread with your differing opinion. Why are you trying to deconstruct theirs to the point it seeming like a personal attack?

People would just stop giving feedback if you force them to defend their position and you would be left with a tiny minority that is satisfied with everything as is. we all know what echo chambers lead to right?

To see an alternative venue of same purpose please check out Owlcat games (company behind pathfinder games) discord and it's feedback channels and how they are structured. They ask you not to initiate dialogue in feedback channel because thats not it's purpose. While there are other channels where you can freely discuss opinions. This forum clearly needs such structuring.

Also could Sarah please look into this forum moderator's behavior?

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Seems like with the new "follow jump" mechanics companions sometimes elect to jump instead of climbing down, and this can result in them falling prone and taking damage. One more annoying issue with the current system.

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Originally Posted by daMichi
A wizard in BG3 can a actually learn cleric spells from scrolls.

I don't like it either.


Yes this is one thing for which I agree needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Should we propose ideas to reduce mouse clicks & drags?

We could have:
An input to group all & ungroup all [F]
An input to portrait/character click a group together [alt + click] the portraits you want to group/ungroup
(This would only group/ungroup who was clicked on while alt was held down, so you can have 2 groups of 2 or 1 group of 3)
(Alt is nice to use because it is currently there to show the worlds tooltips, so that won't create a conflict with grouping/ungrouping)

The chain/unchain animation could play out after the clicks, or pressing the F key.

To supplement my thoughts here. I've always viewed the chain system as something that had visual appeal but was not practical. It did make D:OS 2 stand out, but the lack of practicality does slow down the game here and there.

When I said, "The chain/unchain animation could play out after the clicks," I was implying that I like the visual appeal of chain/unchain. After playing through RPGs over the decades quick and satisfying animations are always something I enjoy seeing in an RPG.

I think it this is something that can make Baldur's Gate 3 more enjoyable from start to finish. The player doesn't need to click and drag to control the chaining and unchaining. Having practical ways to group/ungroup the party, and the chain animations make group/ungrouping cool and stylish, will feel fresh and polished.

For reference of how I derived this proposal, think of Persona 5's combat UI it's very practical and stylish. I love it and I'm sure others who played Persona 5 love that combat UI too. I believe similar design principles can be applied to managing the party in Baldur's Gate 3.

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Hi Gassy,

You should probably copy/paste in this megathread.
Many of us already expressed the same point of view.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=679414&page=1

There are many interresting discussions with good and well thoughts arguments on this board especially when it comes to talk about the game's mechanics wink
(even if the tone is sometimes a bit hard... People here aren't downvoted if their threads aren't full of roses)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/03/21 07:52 PM.
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Yeah i really don't like this system at all.
While it's almost a non issue in multiplayer, in solo game, it's just infernal.

Let us be able to group/ungroup all members with 1 hotkey, and therefor be able to select 1 char out of the group without all the pain of the current system.

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I have been playing early access, having a lot of fun, but one of the most consistent and frustrating fundamental aspects of the game is trying to control the party. I love the transition to a more tactical turn-based system, but trying to position your party for an ambush is like trying to herd lobotomized cats. Breaking each character off from the group is tedious, and switching between characters is clunky. I don't know if I'm imagining it, but I feel like I have to hold the left mouse button down for an extra split second in order to select a different character... So I'm constantly moving characters I didn't intend to move because, oops, the game didn't register my click on Shadowheart. I also understand that I can technically turn on tactical turn-based mode for this, but it feels even more clunky. Sorry, I'm not positioning my entire party into position around the blighted village 10 ft at a time...

I know there's a lot of hate on this board for everything this game does differently than BG1 & BG2, but with the transition to more tactical gameplay, having the ability to quickly and easily reposition the party is much, much, more important. Honestly, the thought of having to constantly unlink and relink my party for a full playthrough sounds awful.

I understand that having an Infinity-Engine style character selection may not be feasible at all times, but toggling between something more intuitive and the current system would be ideal. Not to constantly bring up Bioware games, but maybe even have a follow-cam option, a la NWN?

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10 FIRST PAGES STATISTICS.

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them give a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it, but honnestly it looks like a troll ("get good")
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions etc...

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they have to improve it.

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve any issues related to how select more than 1 character, but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc but it would be "less bad".


WHO DON'T LIKE THIS SYSTEM (81)

Tuco
Warlocke
ElComunista
Wormerine
Akari
Baraz
Jebble
Willyto
Claudio_420
KillerRabbit
Doomlord
mithril
joste89
Vynticator
Sestuna
Minsc1122
Pantoufle
Albi
RobinLefebvre
kanisatha
clavis
Jun
vitfast
DistantStranger
Charod
Gray Ghost
Maximuuus
Gothfather
MasterRoo09
Fuz77
theedge771
PumatsHole
ngcwwolf
YelloB
VincentNZ
ImSuperCereal
blazerules
Arrowmaker
Agi
Athann
andreasrylander
ulvgaar
FrankHunter
Suhiira
Kal Spiro
SymposiumX
Peranor
Mogan
Matey
Anfindel
RKLimes
Roarro
KingNothing69
Druid_NPC
Lastman
LoneSky
iMage
Traycor
KingNothing69
Sir Sparhawk
Skjoldur
Bossk_Hogg
JDCrenton
dunehunter
Bluthtonian
Emrikol
BadgerMan
Saryle
Charod
Sharp
Jimmhel
Gaidax
00zim00
nation
Dominemesis
Argonaut
dunehunter
blazerules
Dangerman33
tsundokugames
cgexile
Doomec
VhexLambda
dunehunter
WarBaby2
Redglyph
jinkaroo
mr_planescapist
Sharet
Clawfoot
UnknownEvil
Nagfar
Dogmatis
Firesnakearies
The Ranger
Pah
1varangian
ash elemental
AlanC9
Martyn
brosephhstalin
Bukke
Sigi98
guy
AceVentura
Ianthebea
Ramshine
radioactive_lego
Black_Elk
Night_Mask
Marcus Artorius
spectralhunter
TheFoxWhisperer
Scribe
Topgoon
Gustavo R
Etruscan
Lunar Dante
Nibel
DiDiDi
Drath Malorn
Baldurs-Gate-Fan
mrfuji3
etonbears
Turglayfopa
lethe
Gassygunslinger


WHO IS +- OK WITH THE SYSTEM (2)
(meaning they "deal" with it, but don't necessary find it good or don't have any issues with it - pathfinding, QoL,...)
UnderworldHades
Dagless
Judex
Nyloth
Starsmith
DragonSnooz


WHO LIKE THE CHAIN (1)
Skin Overbone

WHO GAVE FEEDBACK OR DISCUSSED RELATED ISSUES WITHOUT GIVING STRONG POSITION (24)
(AI, stealth, group command, suggest something, auto jump, console.....)

Meeshe
Gabriel Farishta
RumRunner151
tangelo1023
Jermz238
someoneinatree
jonn
Anfindel
Raflamir
Gnopi
Stalkingwolf
Newtinmpls
UncleBoss
Praetox
Ellynrie
Riandor
Creslin321
Vortex138
SwordSaintSilver
Buttery_Mess
ulvgaar
Bufotenina
TimVanBeek
Iviene
robertthebard
Rhobar121
Ole Draco
Surface R
Grantig
SpiritChaser
dunehunter
OneManArmy
alice_ashpool
Veilburner
LukasPrism
Seleniumcodec
Zellin
Ankou
Sharp
Dexai
YT-Yangbang
CAGE
ldo58
Dark_Ansem
Boblawblah
grysqrl
jfutral

Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/03/21 09:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It doesn,'t change the fact that it's tedious to select one or two characters.
They are also always moving in unexpected ways.

Clicking a portrait to select a character (that you can see, right there) is also much less intuitive than simply clicking on the character. If I recall correctly, clicking on the character model of another party member will initiate dialogue, correct? It feels completely unintuitive, and realistically you're going to want to switch party members much more often than you would talk to them.

Full disclosure, I've worked on UI projects for apps before, so I can be highly critical, but I also know that clunky UI can ruin an experience.

Last edited by Gassygunslinger; 10/03/21 09:02 PM.
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