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Oh yea sorry I missread about highground smile

Don't worry being on your list is not a problem but I disagree about the very brief window.

I had to learn the rules (of BG3 but also D&D) and had to play a lot of time.
Now I consider some things that bothered me before as details and things I found "not really good" are now my main issues.

Things are way more clear now than they were after one or two playthrough - or before we had the game in our hands.

Don't forget something in your analysis : people don't always understand what others mean on the internet and that's probably a huge part of the problem (if there's one).

If I'm saying that highround advantages are too powerfull... Someone will understand that I don't want any bonuses from highground. If I'm saying shove is too OP... He's gonna think I want them to remove shove. Missunderstanding is also a huge part of endless discussions on forums/social media.

I think that those 2 threads on reddit explained things well and that's also why there's not the usual disagreement... But ofc I have to agree with you : a lot of players aren't arround here or BG3's reddit sub anymore. That said, I guess there is some kind of consensus in the "still active/vocal" community.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/04/21 02:27 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
The best way to change their mind with such a system, would be to get lots of outsiders who are not currently complaining about it, to join in on the discussion, which would mean promoting the topic in places where it is not heavily discussed. Examples of such being on youtube, steam, twitch, twitter, etc.

Yes, definitely! Although many threads and topics have gotten lots of people involved, and there are lots of people discussing on Reddit now too. I think that's a good thing! Some people, like myself of course, do tend to repeat things we're passionate about, but in the best scenarios, it does get people involved in creative and constructive discussions, which is worth something, despite the sea of repetitive stuff by the same ol' people (like me. And yes, I know how annoying I can be, I've been living with me for 40 years!).


Originally Posted by Tuco
I mean, one thing is PRECISELY aimed to achieve the other.
We don't speak constantly about these flaws because we are in love with our own voice, but in the hope more people will notice these issues we care about and join the request to fix what needs to be fixed.

Exactly! The hope lives eternal, and it DOES get new people, and old people, involved! It's the best and almost only way to get our voices heard! (Although admittedly, I kind of like the sound of my own voice too, but I would never admit to that openly! wink )

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I mean, one thing is PRECISELY aimed to achieve the other.
We don't speak constantly about these flaws because we are in love with our own voice, but in the hope more people will notice these issues we care about and join the request to fix what needs to be fixed.
And
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Yes, definitely! Although many threads and topics have gotten lots of people involved, and there are lots of people discussing on Reddit now too. I think that's a good thing! Some people, like myself of course, do tend to repeat things we're passionate about, but in the best scenarios, it does get people involved in creative and constructive discussions, which is worth something, despite the sea of repetitive stuff by the same ol' people (like me. And yes, I know how annoying I can be, I've been living with me for 40 years!).
My point is that repeating the same talking points in the same places aren't going to attract a different group of people to the discussion. Of the people who read the forums, those who share your opinion on the matter (myself included) have already commented on the topic and given our agreement. Whilst repeating yourself might make me or anyone else who agrees on the topic of the toilet chain agree more, it isn't going to make new people come in and voice their opinion on the matter, which is what you really need.

You need to go into places where it isn't a topic actively discussed and drum up support there. Maybe convince reddit to stop discussing Helsin for 5 minutes and have a discussion about the chain there, or raise the issue in a twitch stream. If you want to raise awareness of an issue, you need to raise awareness in more than one place and the places you need to raise them in need to actually matter, because the forum is pretty much the back end of nowhere with the same 10 or so people dominating 90% of all discussions.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Objectively false. I started rather enthusiastic about the EA build only to grow more and more disappointed as long as bad trends with the production became more obvious.
My point was not about sentiment, it was about entrenched opinions regarding issues identified with the game. Every single person's sentiment has changed over time, but very few people who actively post regarding their perceived issues have shifted their stance on those perceived issues at all. Has your opinion on the toilet chain changed since you opened the thread? Nope.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Also, courtesy of Maximuuus:
Snipped to save space
That summary is a similar idea to what I am referring to and my point is that, if you were to make an additional post on the matter within that thread the statistics would not change at all. If you want to make it more likely that Larian pays attention to that discussion using a summary like that, you want to get the statistics to even further favor your opinion, which means getting people who have not already contributed to voice their opinion on the matter, which means raising awareness of it in places where awareness of it does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
My point was not about sentiment, it was about entrenched opinions regarding issues identified with the game. Every single person's sentiment has changed over time, but very few people who actively post regarding their perceived issues have shifted their stance on those perceived issues at all. Has your opinion on the toilet chain changed since you opened the thread? Nope.
No, it didn't. But then again I'm not sure why it should, since the system remains every bit as bad as it was few months ago.
Not sure what's your point.

Are you trying to tell me that I should just give up and grow fond of that shitshow of a system for some reason?

Last edited by Tuco; 09/04/21 02:26 PM.

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"You need to go into places where it isn't a topic actively discussed and drum up support there"

Oh for sure! I agreed to that part. =)

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Originally Posted by Tuco
No, it didn't. But then again I'm not sure why it should, since the system remains every bit as bad as it was few months ago.
Not sure what's your point.
My point was that whether or not you are right about the subject, arguing over it isn't going to change anyone's mind and so its pointless to do so. Pretty much every one of these topics has been done to death and I could draw up argument flowcharts with the for/against illustrating the different positions, at this point its just repeating the same stuff over and over again for the sake of doing so.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Are you trying to tell me that I should just give up and grow fond of that shitshow of a system for some reason?
No, but that the back and forth argument over these topics in the same place is pointless now because the person you are trying to convince is Larian and they are likely reading summaries of sentiment which treat all your posts as 1 individual post and bickering back and forth with users is literally just wasting time.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Sharp
My point was not about sentiment, it was about entrenched opinions regarding issues identified with the game. Every single person's sentiment has changed over time, but very few people who actively post regarding their perceived issues have shifted their stance on those perceived issues at all. Has your opinion on the toilet chain changed since you opened the thread? Nope.
No, it didn't. But then again I'm not sure why it should, since the system remains every bit as bad as it was few months ago.
Not sure what's your point.

Are you trying to tell me that I should just give up and grow fond of that shitshow of a system for some reason?


No I think what Sharp means is that it's not enough to post about these things here alone. More people need to join in and that means getting discussions going on many forums and such. =)

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
No I think what Sharp means is that it's not enough to post about these things here alone. More people need to join in and that means getting discussions going on many forums and such. =)
I know what he's saying.
I'm more or less pointing that he's being disingenuous.

Both because a lot of the people hammering about some of these well known issues here do the same in other boards as well... and because the assumption that everyone should just say things once and then shut up is doomed to fail miserably in practice, when you realize that the only purpose this would serve is
1) to make newcomers to the forum overlook that issue
2) to let other people "control the public discourse" with what are often far less pressing matters.

I couldn't give half of a dehydrated stinking shit about giving more lines to Minthara if that means I'm doomed to play a final release with controls so bad that it feels like the developers were purposefully baiting people into give them a brutal trashing.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/04/21 03:45 PM.

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Mmm, no I agree with you aswell. I agree with you both! I believe in both hammering the points home, and writing in as many places as possible! =)

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There is a very real-world concern that if you stop mentioning an issue it falls to the wayside. This actually happens in business where you can report a bug in good faith, but because you thought reporting it once was good enough... you find a year later it was never resolved. Other issues that departments never stopped emailing about got moved up.

That same can happen here without communication on what is on the roadmap for Baldur's Gate 3. If we do not know what Larian is looking to improve/change, we're incentivized to keep writing about it.

Originally Posted by Sharp
The forums have a rather small userbase and you can more or less keep track of the people who actively post a lot. Their opinions have been entrenched since the beginning (yourself, sludge khalid, Maximuuus, tuco, KillerRabit, etc) and have not shifted much over the course of time. There were some contrarians who also posted a lot but they have disappeared (firesnake, surfaces_R, etc). They also had their own list of issues, but they disagreed with the first group on quite a few topics and there was some back and forth discussion about it without going into mud slinging. I would strongly bet on the shift of discourse being the result of the disappearance of the latter group leading to the creation of an echo chamber here, similar to how reddit is the echo chamber to go to when you want to discuss Helsin's body.

And sure some contrarians came and went. But is that really an echo-chamber effect? Could they have realized their argument lacked merit? It's probably a mix of the two. The echo chamber effect is usually formed by an algorithm feeding the user information. When it comes to forums a user has to post (show an intellectual investment) and the thread gets bumped to the top. The echo chamber effect is usually driven by "liking a post" => "user sees more similar posts" and "user dislikes post" => "user sees less posts that are similar". The algorithm will prevent the user from seeing certain information. (Forum rules and moderators are usually the limiting factor of information shared on a forum).

Knowing that, forums are based up human action and the formed status quo is usually similar to what can happen in an environment with limited members. Whether that be school, work, or a small town.

Also most forum members are similar, a lot of folks have played Baldur's Gate 3 and are gamers. Similar people usually form similar opinions.

Quote
Pretty much every one of these topics has been done to death and I could draw up argument flowcharts with the for/against illustrating the different positions, at this point its just repeating the same stuff over and over again for the sake of doing so.

A big part of it, is that the issues brought up on the forums are still present in the game. If the issues are addressed people will stop talking about it. if combat is improved, I'm sure people will start talking about something else.

But while party movement, inventory management, and combat stay the same we will see the same discussions.

Players A, B, and C have been discussing the issues for months. Player D started playing the game two weeks ago and wants to provide feedback on the forums. Player D also loves many aspects of the game but feels combat and party movement could be improved. (And the cycle starts again).

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I would also like to say that I've been monitoring a bunch of other websites like Reddit, the Steam forums, ResetERA, RPGCodex, the cesspool that happens to be 4Chan, Kotaku, and a couple other places, and a fair amount of people pretty much share similar concerns in those circles when they actually do talk about it. The primary difference is that nobody can agree on which issues are the most pressing, but a common thread is that they universally center on the combat design in general and the chaining/party movement system.

And it's not the same people across all those sites either. Of all those communities, the Reddit community is really the only place that could be described as being fiercely defensive about the current systems, at least by way of naturally drowning it out with discussion of the story which nobody really has an issue with. Larian says they collect data about how people engage with their game, but they can't collect data on concepts that don't exist yet, we don't know exactly what kind of data they're receiving other than a heat map of character deaths, and what they are even doing with it. Data is only useful if it doesn't get ignored by the end of the day - after all, we now live in an era where perception is now proven to be more powerful than facts.

The only place that I haven't really checked are places like Twitter and Tumblr, but those places by their very nature are not conducive to any kind of discussion anyway. It's likely that the only places that Larian actually actively monitors are this forum, Reddit, and the Steam forums, because the communities interested in even talking about the deeper mechanics of the game don't really exist much of anywhere else and they aren't an omnipresent entity that's able to see everything at once. And maybe their stream chat, but let's be real, those are positive by default and trying to have a conversation there is a futile effort.

(I've never actually seen a developer claiming to collect data actually release those statistics to the public, besides the Genshin Impact developers bringing up a few oddities in their newsletters from time to time, like how they noticed one specific player dying from drowning like 10,000 times. It would be interesting to see a full list of that data for once.)

I should also bring up that compared to most people here, I am actually a relatively newer arrival to the forums. I may have registered in December, but I didn't start actively posting until February. One could argue that more casual players or newer players probably don't see an issue with the existing systems... But there's no way to definitively prove that and one can argue that a portion of that community DOES have the same issues too, and it's very anecdotal at best. So all anyone can do is act based on what they see, and Larian would have to be willfully blind to see that the current status quo is simply not favorable at all right now.

What happened on Reddit over the past two days was a big thing precisely because it was a spontaneous discussion out of nowhere, with hundreds of participants in a community that historically dismisses those concerns, and THAT cannot be explained away as any kind of 'echo chamber' effect.

Still, we are in a lull between patches. But the general vibe I get around these communities is that the next patch will probably be the defining update for a lot of people in terms of determining the course of the game's development and whether Larian is actually able/willing to do anything at all about these issues that have apparently persisted since launch - at that point, it will have been 7+ months since then.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
There is a very real-world concern that if you stop mentioning an issue it falls to the wayside. This actually happens in business where you can report a bug in good faith, but because you thought reporting it once was good enough... you find a year later it was never resolved. Other issues that departments never stopped emailing about got moved up.

That same can happen here without communication on what is on the roadmap for Baldur's Gate 3. If we do not know what Larian is looking to improve/change, we're incentivized to keep writing about it.

Always enjoy Sharp's comments even when I disagree

And DragonSnooz's comment is insightful. On forums and other forms of social media issues die if people don't keep the conversation alive. I really think the chaining issue would be ignored if Tuco was hammering on it time and time again (despite a near consensus that the system is bad). On any forum I've been on there are usually about 10 to 20 high frequency posters.

People repeat their opinion because it's effective. We know this from social sentiment analysis -- there are tools that you can use to gauge the popularity of some political candidate, some brand or some stock.

This is why troll farms exist. Not to have that discussion but I been in communities that have been targeted by troll farms -- lots of new accounts saying the same thing again and again. Because saying the same thing again changes opinion and people who want to change opinions know that posts on forums count. I've seen people pump and dump a stock or kill a political campaign by hiring reddit manipulators (and I'm not talking about the candidates you think I am, the famous examples had their own manipulators working for them).

So Larian's CEO is asking fans to talk about "creative" ways they have yeeted bosses into pits. People who want to see the game changed don't have the power that the CEO does so they repeat themselves often and hope this influences opinion.

And Larian is kinda caught. It might have it's preference for what issues are discussed -- wouldn't you rather post photos of badgers sitting in chairs instead of hammering away on movement mechanics -- but they don't answer the questions because they want to keep people talking.

Why so little discussion on Solasta forums? Because the answer is probably in the patch notes . . .

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I know what he's saying.
I'm more or less pointing that he's being disingenuous.

Both because a lot of the people hammering about some of these well known issues here do the same in other boards as well... and because the assumption that everyone should just say things once and then shut up is doomed to fail miserably in practice, when you realize that the only purpose this would serve is
1) to make newcomers to the forum overlook that issue
2) to let other people "control the public discourse" with what are often far less pressing matters.

I couldn't give half of a dehydrated stinking shit about giving more lines to Minthara if that means I'm doomed to play a final release with controls so bad that it feels like the developers were purposefully baiting people into give them a brutal trashing.
What I am trying to say can be summarized by the old philosophical example of pouring more water into a glass which is already full. Pretty much everyone on this board has heard you, there is a 29 page mega thread about that particular topic, if someone new arrives here they can be simply linked to the topic and they can be made aware of where to throw their opinion. Its not that I think raising awareness of an issue doesn't have somewhat of an effect, its that I think there comes a point where you are preaching to the choir and you need to find another group of people to have any impact.

The subreddit has the stereotype of being the place to discuss romances at the moment, which means by its stereotype, its already a different group of people. Those are the people you need to get complaining about this. I know you actively post about this here, occasionally on the RPG Codex and rarely on the subreddit. If you really want to have an impact, then you should take a leaf from the book of Pink Eye and his campaign for monks in Wrath of the Righteous, where he was all over the place, on reddit, on various forums, in twitch chats, on twitter, in youtube comments sections, on steam and even making posts on 4chan. You could not go somewhere without seeing Pink Eye's monk campaign, but at the same time, he didn't have 1000's of comments concentrated in a single place on the subject.

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
And sure some contrarians came and went. But is that really an echo-chamber effect? Could they have realized their argument lacked merit?
I very strongly doubt it was a case of them changing their opinions, most of them just up and left after they had had their say and had had enough. I think Firesnake stopped commenting when Cyberpunk came out, for example. I can say from my personal perspective its very tiresome to keep rehashing the same arguments with the same group of people when the reality is neither side is going to budge and even if they did its not them you need to convince of anything but the people making the game.
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
The echo chamber effect is usually formed by an algorithm feeding the user information. When it comes to forums a user has to post (show an intellectual investment) and the thread gets bumped to the top. The echo chamber effect is usually driven by "liking a post" => "user sees more similar posts" and "user dislikes post" => "user sees less posts that are similar". The algorithm will prevent the user from seeing certain information. (Forum rules and moderators are usually the limiting factor of information shared on a forum).

Knowing that, forums are based up human action and the formed status quo is usually similar to what can happen in an environment with limited members. Whether that be school, work, or a small town.

Also most forum members are similar, a lot of folks have played Baldur's Gate 3 and are gamers. Similar people usually form similar opinions.
There is more than one way to create an echo chamber. You could have a moderator who removes everything which goes against a specific narrative in a community and that community would, by virtue of that moderator's actions, over time become an echo chamber as people who do want to discuss contrary opinions drift away to discuss topics elsewhere. Alternatively, you could have a concentrated group of users who share a similar view and discuss the same topics over and over again who immediately jump on anyone who shares a contrary opinion. This could lead to people being discouraged from joining said community and create the impression that that specific view represents everyone's opinion. This is more of a "soft filter" than either hard admin action or algorithmic manipulation of post ordering, but it can achieve the same effect. I would argue this is what has happened in the case of the BG 3 forums.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
The subreddit has the stereotype of being the place to discuss romances at the moment, which means by its stereotype, its already a different group of people. Those are the people you need to get complaining about this. I know you actively post about this here, occasionally on the RPG Codex and rarely on the subreddit. If you really want to have an impact, then you should take a leaf from the book of Pink Eye and his campaign for monks in Wrath of the Righteous, where he was all over the place, on reddit, on various forums, in twitch chats, on twitter, in youtube comments sections, on steam and even making posts on 4chan. You could not go somewhere without seeing Pink Eye's monk campaign, but at the same time, he didn't have 1000's of comments concentrated in a single place on the subject.
Why are you even assuming I didn't already?

Reddit thread

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/1/2971771480487991549/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/1/3010053344551220766/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/1/3010053344554980425/

Plus an unquantifiable number of posts where I brought up the issue on Era, NeoGAF, RPG Codex, Youtube comments, the local italian gaming forum I moderate and more.
Just for the record, the reaction was almost inevitably the same wherever the argument came up: near-uniform unanimity about how the system sucks.

P.S. This is not even the only issue I "championed" in more place than once. Just the one I care about the most. By a wide margin, too.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
There is more than one way to create an echo chamber. You could have a moderator who removes everything which goes against a specific narrative in a community and that community would, by virtue of that moderator's actions, over time become an echo chamber as people who do want to discuss contrary opinions drift away to discuss topics elsewhere.
Yes, that would develop an echo chamber effect.

Originally Posted by Sharp
Alternatively, you could have a concentrated group of users who share a similar view and discuss the same topics over and over again who immediately jump on anyone who shares a contrary opinion. This could lead to people being discouraged from joining said community and create the impression that that specific view represents everyone's opinion. This is more of a "soft filter" than either hard admin action or algorithmic manipulation of post ordering, but it can achieve the same effect. I would argue this is what has happened in the case of the BG 3 forums.
If people are allowed to share their counter opinion for others to see/hear it's not an echo chamber. Situations happen in real life where a person can't change the opinion of the room, even when they're correct. Usually if someone writes out good logic and provides data people will support that opinion. But sadly it doesn't always happen.

Multiple people agreeing doesn't stop other people from accessing the counter-opinion and allows others in the discussion to form their own opinion.
Echo Chamber Effect
Quote
An echo chamber is "an environment where a person only encounters information or opinions that reflect and reinforce their own."

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
If people are allowed to share their counter opinion for others to see/hear it's not an echo chamber. Situations happen in real life where a person can't change the opinion of the room, even when they're correct. Usually if someone writes out good logic and provides data people will support that opinion. But sadly it doesn't always happen.

Multiple people agreeing doesn't stop other people from accessing the counter-opinion and allows others in the discussion to form their own opinion.
Echo Chamber Effect
Quote
An echo chamber is "an environment where a person only encounters information or opinions that reflect and reinforce their own."
My point was that as more people dogpile on the contrary opinion, the opinion gets "drowned out" and the user potentially feels alienated from the community, thus stops contributing. There is no hard measure preventing them from doing so, but because they felt that their opinion was not wanted in that particular medium, they stopped contributing. Yes, someone could potentially go in there and post a contrary opinion, but when coming into that community, that person would see the same list of ideas posted over and over again they would likely develop the idea that that community is not somewhere their opinion is welcome and thus they would opt out of contributing. Then given enough time, you will reach the point where, "a user will see no opinion but their own," because all the people that did have other opinions gave up arguing and moved somewhere else.

Not all restrictions need to be hard restrictions, you could argue that even algorithmic restrictions are not hard restrictions if you deliberately use tools to counteract the work of that algorithm because algorithmic restrictions are just another form of soft restriction.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Why are you even assuming I didn't already?
Mainly because, unlike on the forums where I see these topics brought up again and again and again, I didn't see them brought up in those other places much if at all. Not that I am everywhere, I admit I stopped reading steam almost immediately because its very rare useful discussion takes place there and I don't read youtube comments sections much either, but when I do bother to check the subreddit its all sunshine and roses with Astarion and friends.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
My point was that as more people dogpile on the contrary opinion, the opinion gets "drowned out" and the user potentially feels alienated from the community, thus stops contributing. There is no hard measure preventing them from doing so, but because they felt that their opinion was not wanted in that particular medium, they stopped contributing. Yes, someone could potentially go in there and post a contrary opinion, but when coming into that community, that person would see the same list of ideas posted over and over again they would likely develop the idea that that community is not somewhere their opinion is welcome and thus they would opt out of contributing. Then given enough time, you will reach the point where, "a user will see no opinion but their own," because all the people that did have other opinions gave up arguing and moved somewhere else.

Not all restrictions need to be hard restrictions, you could argue that even algorithmic restrictions are not hard restrictions if you deliberately use tools to counteract the work of that algorithm because algorithmic restrictions are just another form of soft restriction.
That probably does happen, I don't have an idea of how frequently that actually is the situation. For example, we see posts all the time that just skipped over numerous posts to reply directly to the OP. So it seems there is quite a bit of confidence to post in the BG3 forums. Also, I'm sure measures are taken so that forum members don't feel alienated, but it's difficult for forums to be perfect.

Lastly, it's rare for well-thought-out posts backed by data to get dog-piled by opposing views. The posts that get dog-piled usually leave a lot open for interpretation or are minimal statements.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
That probably does happen, I don't have an idea of how frequently that actually is the situation. For example, we see posts all the time that just skipped over numerous posts to reply directly to the OP. So it seems there is quite a bit of confidence to post in the BG3 forums. Also, I'm sure measures are taken so that forum members don't feel alienated, but it's difficult for forums to be perfect.

Does happen. But I find it interesting to ask "when do people call something an echo chamber"? In what context does this word get used and applied. People -- myself included -- call something an echo chamber when the conversation isn't going their way. So I look I look at reddit (until very recently) and say "it's an echo chamber where the only discussions allowed are about romances"

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
That probably does happen, I don't have an idea of how frequently that actually is the situation. For example, we see posts all the time that just skipped over numerous posts to reply directly to the OP. So it seems there is quite a bit of confidence to post in the BG3 forums. Also, I'm sure measures are taken so that forum members don't feel alienated, but it's difficult for forums to be perfect.

Lastly, it's rare for well-thought-out posts backed by data to get dog-piled by opposing views. The posts that get dog-piled usually leave a lot open for interpretation or are minimal statements.
I have seen people post here and elsewhere that the forum is too negative for them. Some people are shy or just don't want to deal with reading posts trashing what they like.

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Well, that’s just their problem.
No one should feel mandate to ooze positivity regardless of how they actually feel about given issues just to accomodate a “Kumbaya” mood.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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