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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
But if you make the ACTIVE choice of not partaking in a story event, you then can't blame the developers because you don't see the results of using said story event.

Yes, a bunch of unique content is locked behind choosing to use the tadpole, with no corresponding unique content - so far - behind not using the tadpole. That's how the game has been designed. And that's why people are saying it's bad design as far as encouraging roleplaying goes. Right now we're effectively being punished for not using the tadpole by getting less cool stuff, which means Larian is pushing one path over another. Will there be consequences later on? It appears there will be, but will those consequences even out the scales? That remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by ash elemental
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point).

I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.

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Ah yes! More people who agree. Thank you. I still don't understand the resisting of the suggestions. It would literally just make the game more diverse and provide more paths and possibilities.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point). The powers might feel rewarding, but considering the limited information you can obtain in the game, this seems to be a "give into temptation now, regret it later" situation. In which case it would only bad game design if the devs never implement the negative consequences of tadpole usage.
Yes I agree it could end up being the case that our reward for not using the tadpole powers appears later in the game, in the form of NOT suffering some horrible outcome from having used the powers. That would be AWESOME comeuppance for those who stupidly used the powers. smile

But for right now, it is very one-sided. And there can be no moral "gray area" here. If one is good-aligned, using the powers of mindflayers who are the epitome of evil would be rather ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
But if you make the ACTIVE choice of not partaking in a story event, you then can't blame the developers because you don't see the results of using said story event.

Yes, a bunch of unique content is locked behind choosing to use the tadpole, with no corresponding unique content - so far - behind not using the tadpole. That's how the game has been designed. And that's why people are saying it's bad design as far as encouraging roleplaying goes. Right now we're effectively being punished for not using the tadpole by getting less cool stuff, which means Larian is pushing one path over another. Will there be consequences later on? It appears there will be, but will those consequences even out the scales? That remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by ash elemental
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point).

I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
Totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
We don't know what the consequences down the line will be, yet. That is my point. If there are indeed none, then yes, I'd agree it is bad design. But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static. I'd rather have more dynamic content. E. g. a different outcome with the real Daisy if my character never interacted with dream Daisy.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
We don't know what the consequences down the line will be, yet. That is my point. If there are indeed none, then yes, I'd agree it is bad design. But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static. I'd rather have more dynamic content. E. g. a different outcome with the real Daisy if my character never interacted with dream Daisy.

I'm glad people are discussing this. It isn't so much about EA/ Act 1 as it is about the overall game. I say, "Larian. If you indeed have plans for Acts 2 and 3 where by not using the tadpole you are greatly rewarded, then yes! That is what we want. However, if you are not going to greatly reward us for not using the tadpoles, then you need to reward us more. You don't have to change Act 1 as long as you are going to do something later on."

I personally LOVE the idea of meeting the real dream person if you do not use the tadpole powers. I was actually hoping for that by the end of Act 1 when I was first playing through it. I was quite disappointed when I didn't. Even if the character is not necessarily who I think they are, I wanted to meet them. But then, again, that could be what they are planning for Acts 2 and 3.

SPOILER!!!

I was hoping the person who was living in the tower in the Underdark WAS the dream person. I got to the end of the tower and thought, "Ah man! I was hoping after all this that I'd at least meet the person or see their portrait on a wall or something." But no. No dream person unless I give in to the tadpole. frown

I was also wondering if the Absolute might actually BE your dream person, but they call the Absolute a SHE regardless of whether you choose a woman or man as your dream person. So that doesn't seem to fit. Either way, I thought it would be very appropriate for the Absolute to be your dream person since wouldn't it technically be the Absolute who is messing with you in your dreams? Larian could still pull this, though, explaining that the Absolute is neither male nor female and thus taking whatever form he/she wants. Thus, to many, the Absolute is a female, so they call her a SHE.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static.

That depends on how it's done. Every character gets dreams in the first two installments of this series, but different things happen in them - and as a result of them - based on decisions made as that character.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
That depends on how it's done. Every character gets dreams in the first two installments of this series, but different things happen in them - and as a result of them - based on decisions made as that character.
I think this is where the original characters get the short end of a stick, because they are all stuck with "dream lover" Daisy. Meanwhile origin characters get their customized tadpole dreams. This is the sort of design I dislike. Because players who choose to create their own characters get to experience only one aspect of Daisy, and imo it is the most boring one.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by ash elemental
But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static.

That depends on how it's done. Every character gets dreams in the first two installments of this series, but different things happen in them - and as a result of them - based on decisions made as that character.

That was my initial point about it as well. Every character gets dreams to creep the players out and to press home to players that they still have a tadpole messing with them. However, if you don't use tadpole powers, these dreams are less frequent than if you use tadpole powers. Maybe offer different dialogue options during the dream sequences too. If you don't use tadpole powers, you resist the dream person more in the cutscenes. If you use tadpole powers, your dialogue options are more geared towards succumbing to the dream person's advances. That sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
We don't know what the consequences down the line will be, yet. That is my point. If there are indeed none, then yes, I'd agree it is bad design. But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static. I'd rather have more dynamic content. E. g. a different outcome with the real Daisy if my character never interacted with dream Daisy.

I'm glad people are discussing this. It isn't so much about EA/ Act 1 as it is about the overall game. I say, "Larian. If you indeed have plans for Acts 2 and 3 where by not using the tadpole you are greatly rewarded, then yes! That is what we want. However, if you are not going to greatly reward us for not using the tadpoles, then you need to reward us more. You don't have to change Act 1 as long as you are going to do something later on."

I personally LOVE the idea of meeting the real dream person if you do not use the tadpole powers. I was actually hoping for that by the end of Act 1 when I was first playing through it. I was quite disappointed when I didn't. Even if the character is not necessarily who I think they are, I wanted to meet them. But then, again, that could be what they are planning for Acts 2 and 3.

SPOILER!!!

I was hoping the person who was living in the tower in the Underdark WAS the dream person. I got to the end of the tower and thought, "Ah man! I was hoping after all this that I'd at least meet the person or see their portrait on a wall or something." But no. No dream person unless I give in to the tadpole. frown

I was also wondering if the Absolute might actually BE your dream person, but they call the Absolute a SHE regardless of whether you choose a woman or man as your dream person. So that doesn't seem to fit. Either way, I thought it would be very appropriate for the Absolute to be your dream person since wouldn't it technically be the Absolute who is messing with you in your dreams? Larian could still pull this, though, explaining that the Absolute is neither male nor female and thus taking whatever form he/she wants. Thus, to many, the Absolute is a female, so they call her a SHE.


From what I can remember, some NPCs refer to the absolute as male.
It seems that the absolute itself has no specific gender, and it most likely takes a different form for each of the true souls.

Spoiler from datamining
From the dataming (if I remember correctly) how the main character will talk about the Absolute depends on the gender of the dream person.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I was also wondering if the Absolute might actually BE your dream person, but they call the Absolute a SHE regardless of whether you choose a woman or man as your dream person. So that doesn't seem to fit. Either way, I thought it would be very appropriate for the Absolute to be your dream person since wouldn't it technically be the Absolute who is messing with you in your dreams? Larian could still pull this, though, explaining that the Absolute is neither male nor female and thus taking whatever form he/she wants. Thus, to many, the Absolute is a female, so they call her a SHE.
If you are looking for a hint about the absolute , talk to the
dead mindflayer in the goblin camp.

Last edited by ash elemental; 23/03/21 03:40 PM.
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More datamined spoilers
From what I've read there are indeed repercussions for using the tadpole. In the Moonrise Tower(act 1B) there is supposedly an NPC who has the ability to "Authority" the player if they have used the tadpole a set number of times. What I've read is 6 uses(which I believe changes the Illithid Wisdom option in the game to True Soul Wisdom). It is currently unknown if using the class specific powers counts toward that 6 uses to be controlled or if getting the Mark of the Absolute allows a toon to be controlled the same way we do to those that bear the Mark. I am particularly interested in doing some testing with this hopefully soon when Larian releases the rest of act 1.

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Um. Where'd you hear that? You can't get to Moonrise yet, right?

Anyway, all this is only one part of the point. The whole game is full of times where good game playing could be more rewarded. We need more rewards for doing better at the game.

Ah. Heres another example. Owl bear. Im a druid. I don't want to take mama from baby. I don't get cool spear or druid armor. I only get spear for killing mama bear.

Maybe I could get something better if I don't kill mama. I play good, i get druid armor for being druid and not killing bugbear. Something like that.

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Have you tryed to knock out that owlbear? -_-


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Have you tryed to knock out that owlbear? -_-

Again. Missing the point. The point is that if I'm a druid, why WOULD I fight the owl bear at all. I should talk to it at most and back off. Why attack it and kill it or knock it out except to take the good stuff?

So if I don't fight the owlbear, which makes sense for a good character to do or a druid to do, I get no reward. I am only rewarded if I attack and either kill or knock the owlbear unconscious.

Why not have an option for a druid to befriend the owlbear and cub? Why not something like that? Maybe as a druid, I could convince the owlbear to let me remove the spear shaft and it is happy with me. Then, maybe allow me to somehow summon the owlbear for one battle with a magic item. Owlbear against the hag. Oh yeah!

Last edited by GM4Him; 24/03/21 01:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Have you tryed to knock out that owlbear? -_-

Again. Missing the point. The point is that if I'm a druid, why WOULD I fight the owl bear at all. I should talk to it at most and back off. Why attack it and kill it or knock it out except to take the good stuff?

So if I don't fight the owlbear, which makes sense for a good character to do or a druid to do, I get no reward. I am only rewarded if I attack and either kill or knock the owlbear unconscious.

Why not have an option for a druid to befriend the owlbear and cub? Why not something like that? Maybe as a druid, I could convince the owlbear to let me remove the spear shaft and it is happy with me. Then, maybe allow me to somehow summon the owlbear for one battle with a magic item. Owlbear against the hag. Oh yeah!

An Owlbear is a 'monstrosity ', it is not of the natural world. A druid would feel no compulsion to let the creature or its' spawn continue to exist; they are anathema to the natural order.

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Ok. Ok. So bad example. I forgot it was technically a monster. Thought it would be cool to have a bugbear fight on your side too.

This actually is an example of good role-playing then. Kill the owl bear, which you should do. Get better prize. Don't kill it, no reward. Lol.

Last edited by GM4Him; 24/03/21 02:59 AM.
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I guess a good druid would probably kill the baby too, but my characters are totally planning to keep it around and train it as a mount one day. Who needs tadpole powers when you're riding an owlbear?

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah. Heres another example. Owl bear. Im a druid. I don't want to take mama from baby. I don't get cool spear or druid armor. I only get spear for killing mama bear.

Maybe I could get something better if I don't kill mama. I play good, i get druid armor for being druid and not killing bugbear. Something like that.
If you mean The Oak Father's Embrace, you can just stealth and loot it from a nearby skeleton. I'm not sure sneaking is even required if you pacify the mama owlbear.

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If you don't kill owlbear you get approval point from Shadowheart and maybe get that sweet pie of hers. What I did was first I took that approval point from Shadowheart by letting owlbear live and then I killed that smelly owlbear. Then I get the choice to let owlbear cub live which I did and that gave me another Shadowheart approval point. Sweet Shadowheart pie, here I cum!!! cool

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