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Not only do they shove it in your face, they return to it time and time again, grinding away without any concern for your pleasure! It's suffocating.

Anyway, the romances were a big part of BG2 and big part of what Larian is doing right. Unlike some, I like the party scenes. You are no longer crawling through goblin filth and corpses, you've learned that the time bomb isn't going off in a few short days and you have a lead on a cure -- you can take one night for rest and distraction. To my mind this is just a grounded, mature way to approach flirting that is true-to-life. You are at work, should you be flirting? y/n You are at a party, should you be flirting? y/n To my mind it's pretty clear no to the first and yes to the second. People make passes at parties and not while killing goblins -- right? Time and place for everything.

Much as I loved BG2 the timing of the romance dialogues were often unintentionally humorous -- for some reason Firkraag's den was listed as "non dungeon" so flirting would inevitably happen there. "I'm wondering, have you ever considered getting married . . ."? Umm, sure I have, but can talk about this after we kill the dragon that is about incinerate us?

I've got lots of critiques of BG3's mechanics but I'm happy with the romances so far.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People make passes at parties and not while killing goblins -- right?

The companions are perfectly willing to flirt with each other while out killing goblins, it's only the poor PC who gets left out. :P

The PC does get a few pre-party opportunities to flirt in camp at night, which seems reasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by soulstalker
Ok, I have been playing this early access for a while and its getting pretty annoying when my character as a male is getting male admirers during the party scene. There should be a toggle switch in options to remove that possibility and you only receive love interests from the opposite sex. The last time that happened I reloaded an old save and tried as i might to sway it to a female choice ( character was male), but eventually it came back to him asking to sleep with my character or kicking him out of camp permanently. I suppose I could just not meet/ remove any of the male allied characters and use configuration of the 2 female choices, but that would be both drastic and put my party on a disadvantage... but might be worth it in the long run if Larion doesn't put the option to filter out same sex allies as love interests.

Why does it bother you that men are hitting on men? Meaning, why is it not enough simply to say you are not interested? It is a fact of life that some people are queer, and it seems odd to think that in a game one should be able to 'turn off' queerness.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People make passes at parties and not while killing goblins -- right?

The companions are perfectly willing to flirt with each other while out killing goblins, it's only the poor PC who gets left out. :P

The PC does get a few pre-party opportunities to flirt in camp at night, which seems reasonable to me.

True. I like Shadowheart's flirtations with and then rejections of Wyll. And yes I do like the camp flirtations and wouldn't mind more of those.

I'm just not experiencing the whole "where did this come from" thing that others do. It's easy to say no and hard to get them to say yes. And do love Astarian's rejection lines . . .

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these are the origin characters, they are that for a reason, they're going to be playable, for a reason. the point is that there is much, much more to them all than meets the eye, hence them being the 'origin' characters. larian said we're getting more companions, who we will likely spend less time with than the original 5, they can save all the normality (aka boringness) for them. & using the word 'obviously' in regards to certain companions (including the only one i even like at all) is the first problem: nothing is completely obvious about them & first impressions are rarely even close to accurate for ANY of them. they do all have secrets, that's why they are specially set aside as these first 5 & why they will be playable, so you can eventually figure out about all the things you were wrong about when judging them by first impressions alone.

& as for finding out secrets too soon (like the vampire thing) remember, we have a long, long, long time before we get the whole game, & if they were all 'normal' with no layers & no shades of grey to their personalities, they would be painfully boring to play with for however long we'll be waiting on the next content update IMO

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Originally Posted by BeeBee
- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite. A bit of a bummer for a survival-obsessed character.

from 1 of his lines, i got the impression that killing cazador would leave him as a vampire spawn but with free will (& possibly the continued power from the parasite, depending on how that goes). the line was something along the lines of "i would settle for just killing the bastard. i wouldn't be a TRUE vampire, but at least i'd be free of him"
so, assuming that he would maintain his current state, but without cazador's control, i think that would be the best option, & the one i'm hoping for, since i truly love & adore astarion & am living for the chance to get to free him & give him a chance to finally have the life that has been denied him for over 2 centuries <3

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Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun

well, if it makes you feel any better about invading spaces, there are dev notes for his party banter about walks with gale where it says "astarion tries to flirt with gale" & there are ALSO dev notes in his party banter with shadow, where he says she has a grim name for such a beautiful flower, & again, the dev notes say "astarion tries to flirt with shadowheart" so other than the fact that all the companions are able to be romanced regardless of player gender, i think, canonically, astarion is definitely a free for all, regardless of his flamboyant mannerisms.

& i don't think it's so much the sun that he's afraid of losing as it is his free will, which is the BIGGEST thing the tadpole gave back to him after 200 yrs of slavery, starvation & torture, & that is the MAIN reason i love him so much & sympathize with him so strongly, he's suffered horrific abuse, & all those nasty first impressions ppl get are a wall he hides behind, (& he's actually the only one that treats you any differently at all after romancing him) & all his thirst for power is desperation to have any power at all after having none whatsoever for longer than most of the other characters have even been alive.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I made all “good” choices and pretty much ignored any approval ratings. After defeating Minthara, everyone else rejected my character. Not Asterion.

With the right combination of dialogue choices, I got the romance scene.

yes i have romanced astarion many times without having to make evil choices, as long as you're nice to him, you can still help people, just without being overly nice as you do. he's very sarcastic & single-minded, & yes he IS self-serving, but there's a difference between self-serving & evil... he doesn't have a problem with 'good' as long as you're not too overly sweet to random people, while also not being a jerk to astarion himself. there is a LOT more to him than the impression he tries to put forth & the walls he tries to hide behind, & when you talk to him the right way, he is by far very, very sweet, once you get past his walls & dig deeper, which is what i love about him, the layers, & that's why he's the only one i EVER even think about romancing

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Much as I loved BG2 the timing of the romance dialogues were often unintentionally humorous -- for some reason Firkraag's den was listed as "non dungeon" so flirting would inevitably happen there. "I'm wondering, have you ever considered getting married . . ."? Umm, sure I have, but can talk about this after we kill the dragon that is about incinerate us?
Oh yes, my first (and only) attempt at BG2's original romances ended up in a "romantic" scene in the middle of Athkatlan sewers. It was both hilarious and off-putting.

Years later I've found one of the very few (since I generally avoid them in games) romances in crpgs I've enjoyed and it was a fanmade mod. I am not sure if it will be possible to mod companions into BG3, but it would be nice.

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Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by BeeBee
- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite.

from 1 of his lines, i got the impression that killing cazador would leave him as a vampire spawn but with free will (& possibly the continued power from the parasite, depending on how that goes).

Very true. Astarion has a lot of options ahead of him, more than any other companion: true vampire + tadpole, vampire spawn + tadpole, and elf + tadpole, plus all of those things with no tadpole. Which would make him most powerful? That's hard to say. The tadpole currently negates most of the advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire; Astarion has basically become a normal elf who needs to drink blood and avoid creeks. I think his ideal state would be 'true vampire with no tadpole'. Whether he can achieve that, and whether we can persuade him to change his priorities, remains to be seen.

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Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).

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Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).

Just keep in mind that the game is designed for you to interpret each character differently based on your playthrough. When I play the game he is very solidly chaotic evil where his approvals over my pc's evil actions are because it is entertaining to him, not because he agrees my pc is darkly justified.

Oddly enough though Astarion's romance IS certainly the most romantic, but I also feel he's just skilled in that regard, which keeps open the opportunity for betrayal if things go south. Luring people and keeping them charmed was his job.

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Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior...

There's a real problem in making a character who's demeanour is one dimensional "For the Evulz" in that people aren't going to want to dig deeper. There needs to be something about them that's endearing in the first place. Astarion obviously hits this mark for you but personally I'd be happy throwing him, Lae'zel and Shadowheart into a big pit and filling it in with concrete. Granted I never gave Astarion much of a chance, his conceited faux-aristocrat air put me off right from the start but Lae'zel and Shadowheart really had everything going for them and still somehow messed it up

Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
& i don't think it's so much the sun that he's afraid of losing as it is his free will, which is the BIGGEST thing the tadpole gave back to him after 200 yrs of slavery, starvation & torture

I never really dug into his character but this does make it seem weird that he's upset your character doesn't want to take Nettie's poison if the tadpole takes control. He more than anyone should get the value in death being preferable to a loss of free will.

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Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Oddly enough though Astarion's romance IS certainly the most romantic, but I also feel he's just skilled in that regard, which keeps open the opportunity for betrayal if things go south. Luring people and keeping them charmed was his job.

Absolutely. Every time I click on him and he feeds my character one of those sugar-sweet romanced lines, he gets a mental side-eye from me.

But I keep romancing and clicking. Because he really is good at his job.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Oddly enough though Astarion's romance IS certainly the most romantic, but I also feel he's just skilled in that regard, which keeps open the opportunity for betrayal if things go south. Luring people and keeping them charmed was his job.

Absolutely. Every time I click on him and he feeds my character one of those sugar-sweet romanced lines, he gets a mental side-eye from me.

But I keep romancing and clicking. Because he really is good at his job.

True. And -- as you say -- it is because he has been written as a seducer but it is also due, in part, to the fact that he has the greatest potential for growth as character. In the morning after scene we (literally and figuratively) see how wounded he his and how his life would improve were he freed of his master.

Shadowheart had the same potential but Patch 3 kinda ruined her. She went from being a tough nut to crack, the person who lets very few people past her armor, to someone who gets gushy and cuddly after a night of kissing.

Notice how Shadowheart's meme economy has fallen while Astarian's has risen? Before the SH changes people were making goth-shadowheart / shadowheart disapproves memes. Now that she's gotten so darn agreeable people have turned their attention to the traumatized vampire spawn.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
True. And -- as you say -- it is because he has been written as a seducer but it is also due, in part, to the fact that he has the greatest potential for growth as character. In the morning after scene we (literally and figuratively) see how wounded he his and how his life would improve were he freed of his master.

Shadowheart had the same potential but Patch 3 kinda ruined her. She went from being a tough nut to crack, the person who lets very few people past her armor, to someone who gets gushy and cuddly after a night of kissing.

Notice how Shadowheart's meme economy has fallen while Astarian's has risen? Before the SH changes people were making goth-shadowheart / shadowheart disapproves memes. Now that she's gotten so darn agreeable people have turned their attention to the traumatized vampire spawn.

Is that a fair assessment though? Patch 3's disapproval change was for all the characters, which implied that the even the developers felt that the gateway to getting to know the characters was a tad too narrow. It was something even said in their recent interview. Hell, even Patch 4 added reading Astarion's mind, which made me sympathize for him in a scene I had otherwise read him as wholly manipulative before. The patch didn't ruin her.

The Shadowheart Larian wants players to know is more visible to see in Patch 3 than before, and the memes were of a caricature rather than the character itself (as all memes are). When people say the female characters are too mean I always want to correct them and say only Lae'zel is mean (bless her heart). Shadowheart was always intended to have a soft heart beneath it all.

I also think romances are most popular with women, and online fandom participation is more popular with women. So it does not surprise me that Astarion fans eclipse the fans of other characters in fandom spaces. No hate on that since I am part of that demographic. But I wouldn't use that as a metric of which character is the best written since I've seen many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes. Give Astarion a chance by all means, but do the same to the others lol.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by BeeBee
- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite.

from 1 of his lines, i got the impression that killing cazador would leave him as a vampire spawn but with free will (& possibly the continued power from the parasite, depending on how that goes).

Very true. Astarion has a lot of options ahead of him, more than any other companion: true vampire + tadpole, vampire spawn + tadpole, and elf + tadpole, plus all of those things with no tadpole. Which would make him most powerful? That's hard to say. The tadpole currently negates most of the advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire; Astarion has basically become a normal elf who needs to drink blood and avoid creeks. I think his ideal state would be 'true vampire with no tadpole'. Whether he can achieve that, and whether we can persuade him to change his priorities, remains to be seen.
I thought that giving him the Necromancy of Thay book might give him more options later in the game as well. He is a vampire after all, which can fall under the purview of necromancy. It would be interesting if the book had some story-related functions for non-PCs.

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Originally Posted by Maiandra
I thought that giving him the Necromancy of Thay book might give him more options later in the game as well.

I do think it's going to be important. My theory is that it will eventually give Astarion a choice between two options - use it to weaken Cazador, or use it to bring himself back to life. It would be an interesting dilemma.

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Shadowheart was always intended to have a soft heart beneath it all.

Or she's trying to make it look like she has a soft heart when it's all really a Sharran manipulation! dun dun dun Though I don't know how likely that is, since I'm actually one of these horrible people:

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
... many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes.

Sorry, Shadowheart, if only you would just shut up a little...

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Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).

It's not my opinion either, based on solely what I've seen in my one playthrough with him (I stated that in an earlier post--but that was further back in the thread). The statement above was based on what others had said, which is why I said "hear." smile I assumed they had seen further evidence of that in interactions I'd missed, since I was only playing a neutral character at the time.

I agree that pragmatic behaviour (or even sometimes selfish behaviour) isn't evil, and I haven't seen how he reacts to outright evil behaviour. If he reacts favourably to hurting others for (his own) enjoyment then that I would classify as evil. Although I often secretly (or not so secretly) hope that people can be swayed away from evil by helping them.

The most interesting thing isn't whether a character is good or evil, it's WHY they're good or evil. If they give them complex reasons for being how they are, then that's so much better than just "Mwahahaha! I want to take over the world for power (but no good reason other than that)."

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Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
I also think romances are most popular with women, and online fandom participation is more popular with women. So it does not surprise me that Astarion fans eclipse the fans of other characters in fandom spaces. No hate on that since I am part of that demographic. But I wouldn't use that as a metric of which character is the best written since I've seen many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes. Give Astarion a chance by all means, but do the same to the others lol.

I don't think so. Bioware have a history of releasing stats on their romances and players have always tended towards their straight dudebros. Astarion is eclipsing Lae'zel and Shadowheart because Lae'zel and Shadowheart are disasters of character writing. The fact that no-one is romancing Shadowheart in spite of the fact she's the only human looking option available for the largest section of the playerbase is a sign of quite what a mess she is.

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