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Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by gaymer
I'm trying to think, as it currently stands, how they would even add Counterspell into BG3 right now. And perhaps this, and other L3 spell mechanics, is why the level cap is at L4 to postpone having to deal with Larian having to think about things like this.

I can't even wrap my mind around how they could implement Counterspell "Larian style" and make it seem impactful. I honestly think they would make it where like "creatures in x range of you cannot cast spells for 1 turn" or something. LOLOLOLOL.

The spells and mechanics only get more complicated as levels increase, as multi-classing comes into play.

Well, since I don't know the technical details of the engine, I can only judge based on what is in the game currently. If Larian were to implement reactions using what's currently in the game, then the wizard toggles on Shield and Counterspell in the Reactions tab. A goblin shoots a fire arrow at your wizard. The game forces your wizard to cast Shield. The fire arrow misses, hits the ground at his feet, sets it on fire, and does 2D4 guaranteed damage to the wizard that he can't roll Dexterity save against, and then rolls a Constitution save to keep maintaining his Concentration spell that he'd previously cast. In the next round, a goblin booyagh casts Sacred Flame at the wizard, forcing him to cast Counterspell, burning a level 3 spell slot to nullify the enemy's cantrip.
This is exactly why I want proper reactions for spells.

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Also, there is a lot of merit to having actual communication for even seemingly minor things.

One of the bigger criticisms from the latest Solasta patch is just how readily available magic gear and magical arrows with poison damage are now. The devs quickly went out and said that it’s only that way right now because they want people to test them, and presumably they’ll be made a lot rarer in the full release.

Full release is apparently around the corner for the most part, all of the major systems are seemingly now in place and now they’re filling in all the details.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Also, there is a lot of merit to having actual communication for even seemingly minor things.
But the Solasta team has way more people at their disposal to be active and engaging with their community in comparison to Larian.... oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I had never really appreciated the concept of Counterspell until now. Characters that are able to see the actual spellcasting get to roll an arcana check to identify the spell, and then if any one of those characters have Counterspell, they get the option to counter it. If you fail the arcana check but are still in range to interrupt, you can still counter it, but you won't know what spell you're trying to halt.

When my wizard countered her first spell like a boss, I grinned and cheered. When she cast scorching ray and got countered, I cried especially since I cast it as a level 3 spell. There's nothing like this in BG3.

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The problem I have with the Solasta is that it's more of a D&D combat simulator than an RPG.
The game itself is quite average and most likely if not for BG3, hardly anyone would have heard about it.
I understand that the game is low-budget, so it's hard to expect amazing graphics, but it's hard to explain the story or probably the ugliest interface I've ever seen in an RPG game.
If I saw this game somewhere by accident, I would think it is some kind of mobile game. I dislike the chessboard so much but I admit the combat system is OK, but whether it is really better than in BG3 is a matter of opinion. Summarizing, Solasta is a better D&D simulator but BG3 is definitely a better game.

I'm not sure what to think about the reaction system.
On the one hand, it's functional, the problem is that I completely don't like pop-ups during combat. There are too many of them. I just don't like them.
It would be much better if instead of a pop-up in the center of the screen, for example, an icon at the bottom of the screen.

Regarding the reactions in BG3, I'm not sure if the Solasty system is a good idea. The game is primarily developed as a multiplayer game. BG3 also puts a lot of emphasis on role playing.
At the moment, introducing the reaction like in Solascie will significantly extend the fights (many people are already complaining about it),
unless we are talking about mindless clicking as soon as a pop-up appears on the screen.
The problem will be especially noticeable during big fights like the goblin camp.

I have one more problem with popups which is much more significant (at least for me).
Pop-ups take the player out of the game (not sure if that's the right term).
Some people would say that barrels or food in combat do the same, but I can't agree with that.
In the case of barrels, you have to try to use them in any sensible way, especially since the opponents do not use them too much.
Moving barrels is really no different than keeping 30 swords in your pocket.
I don't know, maybe I've played too many games before because it doesn't bother me at all.
Equipment always treated as something "attached" to the game which doesn't have much sense.
Many of my favorite games didnt even try to pretend realism and gave the player unlimited equipment.
Eating in combat although stupid isn't uncommon in games.
It is also not as big of a problem as some say. Food heals too little and often weighs too much to be useful anywhere but the beginning of the game.
Once you can buy better healing potions, it will become useless.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 04/04/21 12:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
The problem I have with the Solasta is that it's more of a D&D combat simulator than an RPG.
The game itself is quite average and most likely if not for BG3, hardly anyone would have heard about it.
I understand that the game is low-budget, so it's hard to expect amazing graphics, but it's hard to explain the story or probably the ugliest interface I've ever seen in an RPG game.
If I saw this game somewhere by accident, I would think it is some kind of mobile game. I dislike the chessboard so much but I admit the combat system is OK, but whether it is really better than in BG3 is a matter of opinion. Summarizing, Solasta is a better D&D simulator but BG3 is definitely a better game.

I'm not sure what to think about the reaction system.
On the one hand, it's functional, the problem is that I completely don't like pop-ups during combat. There are too many of them. I just don't like them.
It would be much better if instead of a pop-up in the center of the screen, for example, an icon at the bottom of the screen.

Regarding the reactions in BG3, I'm not sure if the Solasty system is a good idea. The game is primarily developed as a multiplayer game. BG3 also puts a lot of emphasis on role playing.
At the moment, introducing the reaction like in Solascie will significantly extend the fights (many people are already complaining about it),
unless we are talking about mindless clicking as soon as a pop-up appears on the screen.
The problem will be especially noticeable during big fights like the goblin camp.

I have one more problem with popups which is much more significant (at least for me).
Pop-ups take the player out of the game (not sure if that's the right term).
Some people would say that barrels or food in combat do the same, but I can't agree with that.
In the case of barrels, you have to try to use them in any sensible way, especially since the opponents do not use them too much.
Moving barrels is really no different than keeping 30 swords in your pocket.
I don't know, maybe I've played too many games before because it doesn't bother me at all.
Equipment always treated as something "attached" to the game which doesn't have much sense.
Many of my favorite games didnt even try to pretend realism and gave the player unlimited equipment.
Eating in combat although stupid isn't uncommon in games.
It is also not as big of a problem as some say. Food heals too little and often weighs too much to be useful anywhere but the beginning of the game.
Once you can buy better healing potions, it will become useless.


Hmm... yeah, I get what you're saying! I do agree that Solasta is in NO WAY as good as BG3 in terms of story or immersion or aesthetics or anything like that. I do love their reaction system though, in terms of the options it gives you as a player. If there's another way to give players that kind of control and those amounts of options but implement it in a "better" or more appealing way, then sure! Or maybe even better; give us a few options!

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So here's footage of a current late EA boss fight where I pretty much combine a lot of reactions and ready actions together to counter the boss' primary mechanic of casting Darkness, taking advantage of the fact that he can only attack in melee to bait him out of the cloud to take several readied stabs to the face. As you can see, there is a lot of forward thinking and prediction that goes into this, an entire dimension of tactical thinking that exists purely because of the existence of reactions and ready actions. I probably end up acting during the enemy turn just as much as I act during my own turns in some situations, being able to counter a lot of what they do. BG3 makes you feel completely helpless during the enemy turn by omission of these mechanics in comparison.


Oh yeah, I should probably explain Legendary Actions for the uninitiated. It's a feature that certain very powerful enemies have in DnD where they can act independently of the turn order, 3 times per turn. They can also use one of their three charges per turn to instantly succeed at a saving throw as well. It's a concept not really utilized much even in tabletop unless there's a really good justification for a boss having that kind of thing.

I explain this because we should probably expect to see bosses with Legendary Actions in the later parts of BG3 as well. If the current combat design remains as is, that should be very scary to many of us.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 05/04/21 06:59 PM.
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Yeah that video certainly demonstrates how freaking wonderful and tactical it is to have control over the reactions and similar things (such as when to apply smite and such) in fights. It adds immersion, player agency, control and options. I just see *no* downsides with it. Some might argue it's annoying with popups but I am sure there are other ways to implement those things without it being intrusive and still offering the options it does.

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The game concepts look very similar. I already bought BG3, and I don't need two of them. People want reactions because they want to be able to manipulate combat situations more versatile-ly. These same people should feel fine with using cheese tactics.

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Originally Posted by GristlyKnuckle
The game concepts look very similar. I already bought BG3, and I don't need two of them. People want reactions because they want to be able to manipulate combat situations more versatile-ly. These same people should feel fine with using cheese tactics.

Quite a leap in logic you've made there. Reactions, which are part and parcel of DnD 5E, allow the player to make meaningful tactical decisions, because they always involve a cost to the player for a potential benefit, such that the decision to react or not often involves the weighing of the cost and benefit to taking that reaction. For eg. your wizard's arcana skill discerns that an enemy mage is casting Blindness, a level 2 spell, at the party. You are allowed to react by casting Counterspell, a level 3 spell (not in BG3 yet), to nullify it. You'll have to weigh using a 3rd level spell slot to nullify an enemy's 2nd level spell vs letting it through and hoping that your party member can roll a successful Con saving throw. And you're allowed only one reaction per round. You have to think about the pros and cons of making that reaction.

Cheese tactics are decisions that give you vastly more benefit than it costs you. For eg, barrelmancy. It is easy to do, and does a lot of damage with little cost to the player.

I don't think you quite understand the depth of game play that the player can enjoy with the correct implementation of reactions, if you so blithely equate reactions with cheese tactics.

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Yeah that video certainly demonstrates how freaking wonderful and tactical it is to have control over the reactions and similar things (such as when to apply smite and such) in fights. It adds immersion, player agency, control and options. I just see *no* downsides with it. Some might argue it's annoying with popups but I am sure there are other ways to implement those things without it being intrusive and still offering the options it does.

I agree with you, but someone on Reddit found footage from Larian Lead Game Designer, Nick Pechenin, who stated during a Q&A video that the Solasta-style reactions would not flow well in their game and they decided against doing it.

And that came directly from his mouth before EA was released to the public. Now, they may have changed their mind since then (doubt it) after seeing all the feedback and comparisons. But as I said before, I have already prepared not to be able to use reactions in BG3 the way they function in Solasta.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Yeah that video certainly demonstrates how freaking wonderful and tactical it is to have control over the reactions and similar things (such as when to apply smite and such) in fights. It adds immersion, player agency, control and options. I just see *no* downsides with it. Some might argue it's annoying with popups but I am sure there are other ways to implement those things without it being intrusive and still offering the options it does.

I agree with you, but someone on Reddit found footage from Larian Lead Game Designer, Nick Pechenin, who stated during a Q&A video that the Solasta-style reactions would not flow well in their game and they decided against doing it.

And that came directly from his mouth before EA was released to the public. Now, they may have changed their mind since then (doubt it) after seeing all the feedback and comparisons. But as I said before, I have already prepared not to be able to use reactions in BG3 the way they function in Solasta.


Yeah I do know about that statement, but my hope is that they now realise that it's not such a bad idea and that they at least implement the OPTION to use a system like that. At the very damn least, I certainly hope they do massive improvements to the system in place.

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+1

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Extremelly confused as to why people keep saying the fight would take too long if Larian would implement a proper reactions system. Also, think about this scenario: you have a charmed/feared enemy; they start running away from the caster, but they run towards one of your allies. If the character has Attack of Opportunity enabled, he will attack that enemy, breaking the charm/fear/frightened effect. That would be extremely frustrating and dumb. You should be able to choose if and when to use an AOP/reaction spell. Picture another scenario: you are a wizard and you have counterpell ready. You have a high arcana level. Your character identifies that the enemy casts fireball; given that information, you use counterspell and you negate a shit ton of damage. Now with the current implementation, if you have counterspell, you would just toggle it ON in the reaction bar, and if the enemy casts a lvl 1 cantrip your character will use that reaction. How is that even a question??? which system is better?
I absolutely love Larian, and played more than 300hrs of dos 3. Trust me, I'm not a hater here. I`m just trying to help other people understand that there is no bad side to having a proper reaction system. The flow would not brake, because you would be more engaged, the time would not be longer, because you would react during an enemy`s turn, and for God`s sake , the pop-up is the LEAST of our problems. Who cares?? You could consider a pop-up a tutorial video, or your inventory. Anything that appears on your screen during combat could be considered a pop-up. but i`m not hearing anybody complaining about the fact that many of you probably open your bags in combat, am I ?
So just think about it. No major downsides to having an absolute awesome experience while also adding depth to the combat tactics.

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I mean, really, as I've said before in the most practical and pragmatic terms, a proper reaction system will save more time by letting you directly control that counterspell against that fireball (or that fire bolt cantrip going for that barrel next to you) that's otherwise going to wipe your party and force you to reload the game, more than any popup could ever hope to waste.

Too many people think of the immediate, but a truly well designed turn-based game must account for the long term.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 10/08/21 08:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zpawn
Extremelly confused as to why people keep saying the fight would take too long if Larian would implement a proper reactions system. Also, think about this scenario: you have a charmed/feared enemy; they start running away from the caster, but they run towards one of your allies. If the character has Attack of Opportunity enabled, he will attack that enemy, breaking the charm/fear/frightened effect. That would be extremely frustrating and dumb. You should be able to choose if and when to use an AOP/reaction spell. Picture another scenario: you are a wizard and you have counterpell ready. You have a high arcana level. Your character identifies that the enemy casts fireball; given that information, you use counterspell and you negate a shit ton of damage. Now with the current implementation, if you have counterspell, you would just toggle it ON in the reaction bar, and if the enemy casts a lvl 1 cantrip your character will use that reaction. How is that even a question??? which system is better?
I absolutely love Larian, and played more than 300hrs of dos 3. Trust me, I'm not a hater here. I`m just trying to help other people understand that there is no bad side to having a proper reaction system. The flow would not brake, because you would be more engaged, the time would not be longer, because you would react during an enemy`s turn, and for God`s sake , the pop-up is the LEAST of our problems. Who cares?? You could consider a pop-up a tutorial video, or your inventory. Anything that appears on your screen during combat could be considered a pop-up. but i`m not hearing anybody complaining about the fact that many of you probably open your bags in combat, am I ?
So just think about it. No major downsides to having an absolute awesome experience while also adding depth to the combat tactics.


Yup. 100%. Lots of people have been making points like these, and it's frankly shocking that it isn't perceived as an obviously, objectively better system.

I am pretty sure it's even possible to implement a "flashy" and "cool" popup reaction system, making time slow down, changing camera angles and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Originally Posted by Zpawn
Extremelly confused as to why people keep saying the fight would take too long if Larian would implement a proper reactions system. Also, think about this scenario: you have a charmed/feared enemy; they start running away from the caster, but they run towards one of your allies. If the character has Attack of Opportunity enabled, he will attack that enemy, breaking the charm/fear/frightened effect. That would be extremely frustrating and dumb. You should be able to choose if and when to use an AOP/reaction spell. Picture another scenario: you are a wizard and you have counterpell ready. You have a high arcana level. Your character identifies that the enemy casts fireball; given that information, you use counterspell and you negate a shit ton of damage. Now with the current implementation, if you have counterspell, you would just toggle it ON in the reaction bar, and if the enemy casts a lvl 1 cantrip your character will use that reaction. How is that even a question??? which system is better?
I absolutely love Larian, and played more than 300hrs of dos 3. Trust me, I'm not a hater here. I`m just trying to help other people understand that there is no bad side to having a proper reaction system. The flow would not brake, because you would be more engaged, the time would not be longer, because you would react during an enemy`s turn, and for God`s sake , the pop-up is the LEAST of our problems. Who cares?? You could consider a pop-up a tutorial video, or your inventory. Anything that appears on your screen during combat could be considered a pop-up. but i`m not hearing anybody complaining about the fact that many of you probably open your bags in combat, am I ?
So just think about it. No major downsides to having an absolute awesome experience while also adding depth to the combat tactics.


Yup. 100%. Lots of people have been making points like these, and it's frankly shocking that it isn't perceived as an obviously, objectively better system.

I am pretty sure it's even possible to implement a "flashy" and "cool" popup reaction system, making time slow down, changing camera angles and whatnot.

Didn`t even think of that, such a great suggestion. that would be awesome! laugh

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I think it'd be great if it was unique for each reaction.

a time slow-down is great for feather fall, an alert sound that is unique with the pop-up for shield, etc. There's a lot of flavor that can be added to a reaction pop-up.

This way it doesn't feel repetitive and players can react quicker because they can sense what reaction is triggerable without having to read the pop-up.

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Indeed, that is quite obvious we need a good reaction system in BG3 ... Haven't they say they will implement reaction during their video for the latest patch ?

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Would love for the reaction system to be similar to Solasta.... along with just about everything else they did regarding rule implementations and such. <3

EDIT:
Here is the thing about a prompter asking if you want to take a reaction, and if so; what that reaction will be:
It *WONT* make things feel "slow" or stop the pace of the battle. Why not? Because it's on an enemy turn. It will just feel great because even though the enemy is doing things on their turn, suddenly stuff pauses and YOU get a say in the development of the enemy actions! It gives the player agency and control, and that wont feel like "the battle is slowing down" or anything like that, cause these things happen outside your turn.

I *TRULY* wish they implement something like that.

correct me if i'm wrong. is larian not implementing the correct implementation of the dnd5e rules? if so why larian does that? i basically in favor of the implementation of how the rules supposed to be.

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