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Exactly ...
I understand that people dont like limitations, and it could be a little problematic to let ... Lae'zel for example to sleep with any of those "lesser races" ... but i think that Gith can appreciate capable person no matter of their shape. laugh
Still, concidering how she interacts with Tieflings, its hard to me to imagine her with one and feel like its good. O_o


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In an era of D&D where in-universe descriptions of Orcs are considered problematic and WotC will revise material to make their pastiche of Gothic Horror's gypsy stand-ins less stereotypical . What are the chances the big main stream game is going go this deep on race?

There are people who don't even like the word 'race' being used to describe the different...races. I couldn't think of an alternative.

I remember watching a recent review or recap of Baldur's Gate II, which does have gender and race gates, that called it problematic by modern standards, but I don't really know what the general feeling on this is. And to be fair if there's anyone replaying Baldur's Gate today, they're probably modding around that if they want to.

Species? That sounds too broad.

Last edited by Sozz; 20/04/21 12:37 AM.
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It also dont sounds right ... at least not to me.
I mean sure, if we will compare Human and Dragonborn, then species is completely fine ... since they have almost nothing in common.
But is Elf really so different species from Human, just since they live a lot longer and have pointy ears? :-/

Also most pairs of different species as far as i know is uncompatible to create kids together ... yet, here we have Half-breeds with almost everything and humans. laugh
Maybe breed would be a good word. laugh
But that is not point of this topic. :-/


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Originally Posted by Sozz
In an era of D&D where in-universe descriptions of Orcs are considered problematic and WotC will revise material to make their pastiche of Gothic Horror's gypsy stand-ins less stereotypical . What are the chances the big main stream game is going go this deep on race?

There are people who don't even like the word 'race' being used to describe the different...races. I couldn't think of an alternative.

I remember watching a recent review or recap of Baldur's Gate II, which does have gender and race gates, that called it problematic by modern standards, but I don't really know what the general feeling on this is. And to be fair if there's anyone replaying Baldur's Gate today, they're probably modding around that if they want to.

Species? That sounds too broad.

I hope that everything will be fine because Larian is not an American developer, which really matters. Otherwise, we would have already received the Witcher by Netflix. I mean, for some universes, races and relationships between them, even negative ones, are part of the story, part of the plot, and that's how it should be. There was a lot of racism in the original Witcher, and that's part of the plot. You can't cut out some historical part of the universe just because it is "offensive" to someone.

I don't see a problem with word "race"... If someone sees this as a problem, then it's their problem, not content problem. But I do not know why you bring up this post here. We've talked about this only in romance context.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
I don't see a problem with word "race"... If someone sees this as a problem, then it's their problem, not content problem. But I do not know why you bring up this post here. We've talked about this only in romance context.

Yeah, it's not really on topic and it tends to go to some non-awesome places, so let's not go there.


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The only way it is on topic is if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that. Legolas and Gimli are a famous bromance (or romance under certain interpretations) and evoke similar themes. And specifically with Laezel, I feel like she actually begins to respect the others around her, and Shadowheart mellows out realizing that (in her eyes) you aren't a "bad" gith, I think?

Moving away from that entirely (and can delete that if people want), it seems a solution to Playersexuality being maintained is to just add more specific dialogue? Something that indicates past relations or what they like, like: "Many a man and woman have tried to lay with the blade, but only a select few have caught my eye~" or something like that. Confirmation on what they did in the past and how it relates to the present. A line like that would indicate that he saw himself as Bi (or just attractive to both) and was able to have flings outside of Mizora.
Another example. Like I actually wouldn't be surprised if Gale was a virgin or never had a relationship outside of his obsession with Mystra so you could give him a line like, "I never expected to feel this way about someone else... a mortal... A man..." or something like that that gives him a sense of retrospection and idea that he might have thought himself Straight before but now thats shifted. Similarly Astarion could says something like, "I never had a chance to do something like that in 200 years, Cazador never.... well, that doesn't matter anymore since you are here." giving an indication of the lack of relationships he might have had being a thrall or on the flipside could give a line about how he enjoyed a specific gender or even race while being a servant of the night and it was nice going out of his comfort zone and that he'd like to try again soon.

tldr; I suggest adding dialogue that gives some of the characters a sort of past with their sexuality that also reconciles the present playersexuality.

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Yeah, I'm sorry I brought up the dreaded word. I was mostly thinking about the different attitude towards this compared to Baldur's Gate II and today. BG:II had characters who didn't romance the PC if they were x or y. The real problem there was it just wouldn't happen, because all the companion conversations were all banter timer/triggers, you were either eligible for or not, instead of what I hope is more common today, having the game deal with it in a more conscious way.

The biggest place this intersects with the EA is Lae'zel or a Gith PC. I'm not a Githyanki expert but based on Lae'zel's and the Dragon Knight's attitudes, they seem to be Githyanki chauvanists, which just makes me view all their interactions with non-gith through a rubric and be especially conscious of anything inconsistent with that attitude.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
The only way it is on topic is if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that. Legolas and Gimli are a famous bromance (or romance under certain interpretations) and evoke similar themes. And specifically with Laezel, I feel like she actually begins to respect the others around her, and Shadowheart mellows out realizing that (in her eyes) you aren't a "bad" gith, I think?

Moving away from that entirely (and can delete that if people want), it seems a solution to Playersexuality being maintained is to just add more specific dialogue? Something that indicates past relations or what they like, like: "Many a man and woman have tried to lay with the blade, but only a select few have caught my eye~" or something like that. Confirmation on what they did in the past and how it relates to the present. A line like that would indicate that he saw himself as Bi (or just attractive to both) and was able to have flings outside of Mizora.
Another example. Like I actually wouldn't be surprised if Gale was a virgin or never had a relationship outside of his obsession with Mystra so you could give him a line like, "I never expected to feel this way about someone else... a mortal... A man..." or something like that that gives him a sense of retrospection and idea that he might have thought himself Straight before but now thats shifted. Similarly Astarion could says something like, "I never had a chance to do something like that in 200 years, Cazador never.... well, that doesn't matter anymore since you are here." giving an indication of the lack of relationships he might have had being a thrall or on the flipside could give a line about how he enjoyed a specific gender or even race while being a servant of the night and it was nice going out of his comfort zone and that he'd like to try again soon.

tldr; I suggest adding dialogue that gives some of the characters a sort of past with their sexuality that also reconciles the present playersexuality.

Well, yea, this is an interesting version, but right now companions do not react to our race in any way, and we do not react to them either. So it would be a nice addition.

As for the "specific dialogues", it already exists, I wrote about it above. Gale is somehow attracted to girls based on his dialogues, he constantly talks about Goddess and flirts with Shadow, for example. But people who talk about "sexuality" clearly want more or something more specific. And to be honest, I think that not everyone will like it, or I personally do not like it, since I have a negative experience in Pathfinder.

Someone has already suggested a similar option, for someone like Gale to say " wow, this is my first time with a man...", but this can actually ruin someone's game.


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Personally, I would have loved a dragonborn companion. Also as romanceable, of course. There's gotta be a Red Prince equivalent, methinks! wink
Perhaps I can mod Gale or someone to get the dragonborn appearance! =)

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that.
That is certainly one of possible reasons ...

Personaly i dont see anything racist in not being attacted in one metter tall "(fe-)male" with beard, deep harsh woice and beer breath ...
Especialy if you are elf. laugh

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Legolas and Gimli are a famous bromance (or romance under certain interpretations) and evoke similar themes.
Touché ...
But they would never work so well, without that hostility from beginning ... if they never concider other one hideous from start, their friendship in the end would be worthless. frown

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
And specifically with Laezel, I feel like she actually begins to respect the others around her, and Shadowheart mellows out realizing that (in her eyes) you aren't a "bad" gith, I think?
Lae'zel is kinda specific character ... since she clearly states that your night spend together was only sex for her, no emotional attachments included.
(yet, maybe?)

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Moving away from that entirely (and can delete that if people want), it seems a solution to Playersexuality being maintained is to just add more specific dialogue? Something that indicates past relations or what they like, like: "Many a man and woman have tried to lay with the blade, but only a select few have caught my eye~" or something like that. Confirmation on what they did in the past and how it relates to the present. A line like that would indicate that he saw himself as Bi (or just attractive to both) and was able to have flings outside of Mizora.
Another example. Like I actually wouldn't be surprised if Gale was a virgin or never had a relationship outside of his obsession with Mystra so you could give him a line like, "I never expected to feel this way about someone else... a mortal... A man..." or something like that that gives him a sense of retrospection and idea that he might have thought himself Straight before but now thats shifted.
Similarly Astarion could says something like, "I never had a chance to do something like that in 200 years, Cazador never.... well, that doesn't matter anymore since you are here." giving an indication of the lack of relationships he might have had being a thrall or on the flipside could give a line about how he enjoyed a specific gender or even race while being a servant of the night and it was nice going out of his comfort zone and that he'd like to try again soon.
Love theese all! :3

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
tldr; I suggest adding dialogue that gives some of the characters a sort of past with their sexuality that also reconciles the present playersexuality.
Sadly it would never work as good if everyone would still be playersexual. frown
How about this?
Adding racial and sexual preferences ... but not to decline to our characters that particular romance completely, but simply delay it for later ... after all, we have only seen part of Act 1 ... i bet it should never end with one-night adventure ...
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene. :P


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sadly it would never work as good if everyone would still be playersexual. frown
How about this?
Adding racial and sexual preferences ... but not to decline to our characters that particular romance completely, but simply delay it for later ... after all, we have only seen part of Act 1 ... i bet it should never end with one-night adventure ...
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene. :P

Actually, being slower with the romances all around wouldn't be a bad idea, moving many of them to Act 2 could not hurt at all and would allow for more room to develop relationships so it feels more realistic for say Shadowheart to romance a Gith or Gale to romance when he still has that little bit of obsession with a goddess. Would allow for adding more bonding scenes cause most everyone seems to get around one (maybe two?) scenes that could have a romantic subtext before you are flung into afterparty sex.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sadly it would never work as good if everyone would still be playersexual. frown
How about this?
Adding racial and sexual preferences ... but not to decline to our characters that particular romance completely, but simply delay it for later ... after all, we have only seen part of Act 1 ... i bet it should never end with one-night adventure ...
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene. :P

Actually, being slower with the romances all around wouldn't be a bad idea, moving many of them to Act 2 could not hurt at all and would allow for more room to develop relationships so it feels more realistic for say Shadowheart to romance a Gith or Gale to romance when he still has that little bit of obsession with a goddess. Would allow for adding more bonding scenes cause most everyone seems to get around one (maybe two?) scenes that could have a romantic subtext before you are flung into afterparty sex.

Only Lae and Astarion have sex scenes, for obvious reasons, it's not really feelings and romance, it's just sex.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene.

The question is, will Larian want to spend resources on this? Making a few extra scenes isn't that easy.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
...right now companions do not react to our race in any way...
I have noticed a scant few instances where they do refer to your species:
  • Lae'zel mentions it when she insults your nose after you free her (after you mention her species).
  • When Shadowheart comments that she never thought she would have cared about tieflings, she includes you in that if you are a tiefling.
  • Astarion says he's "not normally impressed by people of your stature but..." if you're a halfling (and presumably if you were dwarf).

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The biggest instances are understandably when you play as a Drow or Githyanki, but never so much that it really hinders your story progress or relationships.

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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I don't see a problem with word "race"... If someone sees this as a problem, then it's their problem, not content problem. But I do not know why you bring up this post here. We've talked about this only in romance context.

Yeah, it's not really on topic and it tends to go to some non-awesome places, so let's not go there.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that.
That is certainly one of possible reasons ...

Personaly i dont see anything racist in not being attacted in one metter tall "(fe-)male" with beard, deep harsh woice and beer breath ...
Especialy if you are elf. laugh
[snip]

Originally Posted by Maiandra
Originally Posted by Nyloth
...right now companions do not react to our race in any way...
I have noticed a scant few instances where they do refer to your species:
  • Lae'zel mentions it when she insults your nose after you free her (after you mention her species).
  • When Shadowheart comments that she never thought she would have cared about tieflings, she includes you in that if you are a tiefling.
  • Astarion says he's "not normally impressed by people of your stature but..." if you're a halfling (and presumably if you were dwarf).

Guys. suspicion


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Posts have gone away. Please stop bringing up the subject of race because previous experience has shown that it ends badly.


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Originally Posted by vometia
Posts have gone away. Please stop bringing up the subject of race because previous experience has shown that it ends badly.

Did my post offend? You took it out. Is it totally deleted? Can you please tell me how it was not good? I spent a lot of time on it, and I thought it made some really good points. Now the whole thing is gone. I'd have rather edited it and taken out things you didn't approve of. 😔

Ah, you know what. Never mind. I don't care. Sorry to bug you. What does it matter anyway? I'm wasting too much of my time out here anyway.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Did my post offend? You took it out. Is it totally deleted? Can you please tell me how it was not good? I spent a lot of time on it, and I thought it made some really good points. Now the whole thing is gone. I'd have rather edited it and taken out things you didn't approve of. 😔

Ah, you know what. Never mind. I don't care. Sorry to bug you. What does it matter anyway? I'm wasting too much of my time out here anyway.

It's been moved. I'll PM it to you and you can remove the bits in question and resubmit it. The post itself was not offensive but the matter of race is something we have previously had problems with because it's something that can quickly degenerate so I'm afraid it's off limits.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Only Lae and Astarion have sex scenes, for obvious reasons, it's not really feelings and romance, it's just sex.
I believe that Gale also had sex ... and Wyll was certainly trying to. laugh
Shadow seem to be the most inocent tho. smile

Otherwise, i agree ... so far its just sex, the true feelings will came in time.
And i bet they come just moments before we loose that companion for some reason. laugh

Originally Posted by Nyloth
The question is, will Larian want to spend resources on this? Making a few extra scenes isn't that easy.
True, but that is not our place to decide ...
Our job is to suggest, so im suggesting. laugh

Originally Posted by vometia
Posts have gone away. Please stop bringing up the subject of race because previous experience has shown that it ends badly.
I dont understand this, not even a little bit ...
My post was one of quoted ... but its still there, no change at all. O_o Was i included by misstake?

Also to be compeltely honest, i cant quite understand how exactly are we suppose to provide feedback on some matter, that cant be discuised just bcs some people can missunderstand it, twist it, and being angry about that thing they just made up themselves by twisting it. O_o
Im sorry, but this is just odd theese days ... rather not talk about something that might gone bad when people ruin it? :-/ Soon we would not talk at all. :-/


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Honestly, I think the safest way for Larian to no is to not tie any character to anything in particular but make them available for all. The character I was most interested in before I played this game for the first time was Lae'zel. She was the most unique of all the characters. I would have been disappointed if I played the game and had her romance locked and unable to be triggered for any reason.

That said, I, the player, should still have to make some choices that determine who hits on my main, who wants to sleep with him/her, etc., and my choices should make it easier or harder to accomplish this. In other words, I think the system only needs to be tweaked a little.

For example, if I make a male character, and a male dream love, this should trigger the game that I prefer a homosexual relationship. If I pick male and female, it should trigger heterosexual relationship. This would be by default. Then, if later I am female but I flirt with Shadowheart, but my dream person is male, that should tell the game that I might prefer both and that the game should now leave open all my options. That's the kind of thing I mean. My choices determine who is available for romance so that I don't have Wyll hitting on my male Drow when I clearly chose heterosexual choices, and likewise I don't have Wyll hitting on my female Tiefling when I clearly chose homosexual choices, etc. So don't lock the options for any reason, but maybe tailor the options for romance based on decisions you've made.

Either this or just leave it up to the player to initiate all romance period and don't have any character hit on the main. The main has the option to pursue who they want and leave it at that rather than having the romance options pursue the main.

And, I still think the romances really lack more depth. There needs to be more dialogue and options to spend time alone with the ones you like prior to sex. Maybe have options every long rest to spend time with someone. If your relationship meter is neutral or better they agree. If not, then they refuse. The more you do this, the more your relationship meter might increase or decrease depending on what you talk about during those alone times. These alone times should be what pushes the relationship closer to that full blown romance point, not so much the choices you make all throughout your journey. Those should still affect your romances, but not as much as when you are alone with a person.

This would be the more appropriate time for some of the dialogues already in place too. When Shadowheart bears her secret to you, it should be off alone, during an intimate, private time with just you. If alone, she is mote gentle and less twitchy because it's just the two of you. Wyll could tell you about his secret during such a time. If you respond well, you gain relationship points. After you learn about Astarion, if you ask him to be alone with you then he might be more open about Casador. But then you could have times when the other character initiates it, like Gale wanting to tell you about his other condition. "Let's go somewhere private to discuss." Then based on your responses during your private time, that has a much bigger impact on the relationship.

Then after a certain number of times alone with the person then they might have sex with you if you've boosted the relationship meter to that point by spending alone time with them and getting along with them. But it should take time, more so for some than others. Romance is not really built upon whether a person likes your convos with others. It is built more on whether they like your convos with them, alone, spending alone time with them.

Right now, there is not real alone, intimate time with anyone in the game and then BAM! So its not romance but more like a one night stand and the characters are willing to sleep with you because you made decisions they liked such as refusing to help Sazza, and killing gobbos. Man! Nothing gets Wyll going more than killing gobbos. He really finds that attractive in a person and is willing to bunk with you if you do. Doesn't matter what kind of person you really are, if the gobbo heads roll, he is hot for you.

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