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#770735 22/04/21 11:49 PM
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I'm just going to come out and say it, since most folks seem afraid to. This game is primarily a DOS clone and has very little to do with D&D. Pathfinder-Kingmaker (a much better D&D-based game) has an expansion coming out this summer and I will wait for that and will play it until my eyes burn out. I will also wait patiently for this game, in the hopes that when the full version of Baldur's Gate 3 comes out Larian has decided if they really want to make a D&D game, or if I wasted $60.

Larian, Baldur's Gate was a D&D game. Its namesake should be a D&D game.

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Hey there,

Many folks follow your sentiment to varying degrees, don't feel alone... If you can spare the time and effort, I'd strongly encourage you to drop this paragraph in to their official feedback form as well (you can find it Here), since that's a way of being certain that your voice and opinion reaches Larian directly. Every voice counts.

Last edited by Niara; 23/04/21 01:40 AM.
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Just for the record Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous is a full blown sequel in a new engine, not an expansion of Kingmaker.
It's also based on Pathfinder, not D&D, but since former is basically born as a branch of the latter and they are basically the same, mechanically speaking, we are splitting hair.

Not to mention it would be hard to deny that Kingmaker felt WAY closer to BG2 than anything Larian has ever done so far, anyway.
Starting with a control scheme that doesn't make you feel the urge to assault a random developer and beat the crap out of the poor bastard in retaliation.

Last edited by Tuco; 23/04/21 03:57 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Niara
Hey there,

Many folks follow your sentiment to varying degrees, don't feel alone... If you can spare the time and effort, I'd strongly encourage you to drop this paragraph in to their official feedback form as well (you can find it Here), since that's a way of being certain that your voice and opinion reaches Larian directly. Every voice counts.

Well, I'd recommend he make it a little more polite first otherwise they'll likely disregard him as a disgruntled fan.

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I'm in this thread only to say even now, on EA stage, I believe that BG3 is better than Pathfinder.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
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You know the title of this game is not "Dungeons and Dragons 5e, The Video Game" right?

It is Baldurs gate 3. A video game that used Dungeons and Dragons as a guideline or is inspired by D&D. I don't think the goal is, or has ever been to "what ever game matches D&D the best, wins"

That being said, the games art work, the stories the way you can play though 5 times and each time get different stories, the way they make you "feel" you are in their world, has never been done quite like this game.

This game BLOWS AWAY Divinity or pathfinder, those games are kids cartoons in comparison to a full adult movie.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm in this thread only to say even now, on EA stage, I believe that BG3 is better than Pathfinder.
Thanks for sharing.

Currently I don't.
In fact, if Pathfinder could get BG3's aesthetic and production value deciding which one seems better in terms of systems at play and overall design wouldn't even be a contest.

Last edited by Tuco; 23/04/21 09:29 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Tabuk
You know the title of this game is not "Dungeons and Dragons 5e, The Video Game" right?

I don't think the goal is, or has ever been to "what ever game matches D&D the best, wins"
I'm not sure if you genuinely think you are making a compelling point here.

Also, I never played a single game of D&D 5th edition in my life and that should already tell a lot of how much "absolute fidelity" is at the center of my worries, just to stress how pointless it is to keep beating that strawman.

Last edited by Tuco; 23/04/21 07:00 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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I mean... people already claim it's a dos clone and has little to do with d&d.

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Originally Posted by Tabuk
You know the title of this game is not "Dungeons and Dragons 5e, The Video Game" right?

It is Baldurs gate 3. A video game that used Dungeons and Dragons as a guideline or is inspired by D&D.

Lol...no....Not accoridng to Swen Vincke/Larian:

BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.
(Swen Vincke)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-interview

We started by taking the ruleset that's in the Player's Handbook. We ported it as faithfully as we could, then there were some number of things that we saw that doesn't work that well, and so we started looking for solutions to do that. The hardest part—and this is the most interesting part also about it, because there's a lot of stuff from the rules that actually ports quite well, so—but the most interesting part is the role of the Dungeon Master...(Swen Vincke)
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...-turn-based-rpgs-and-dreams-coming-true/

But in terms of actual systems, it’s Fifth Edition D&D through and through. And we’ve changed some things, because it’s a different medium, so you can’t just be like, ‘let’s just take all the rules of a tabletop game and put it into a video game.’ It just doesn’t work. So there are a few things that change, but fundamentally it is D&D. It’s built on Fifth Edition. (Adam SMith)
https://www.vg247.com/2020/02/27/baldurs-gate-3-dungeons-and-dragons/

Neither you, nor Swen should be surprised that people are upset at his dishonesty in how he described BG3, and the process of adapting 5e rules to the game, since it's painfully obvious that Larian started with DOS, and then attempted to graft on 5e, and what we have in EA, is a mess.

Last edited by Grudgebearer; 23/04/21 08:49 PM.
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Imagine Swen Vincke and Todd Howard sitting a room together.

One justifies that "It just didn't work". And the other justifies that "it just works".

Really highlights that we're really talking about design choices and project choices. Both are roundabout ways of saying, we weren't ready to commit to fully implementing the concept.

Todd Howard betting on gamers being accepting of bugs and Swen betting on gamers' tolerance for sub-optimal choices.

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Originally Posted by Rabbitman
I'm just going to come out and say it, since most folks seem afraid to. This game is primarily a DOS clone and has very little to do with D&D. Pathfinder-Kingmaker (a much better D&D-based game) has an expansion coming out this summer and I will wait for that and will play it until my eyes burn out. I will also wait patiently for this game, in the hopes that when the full version of Baldur's Gate 3 comes out Larian has decided if they really want to make a D&D game, or if I wasted $60.

Larian, Baldur's Gate was a D&D game. Its namesake should be a D&D game.

You aren't alone in this. Some of us already gave up on the game.

Shame I already paid for it, but unless they intentionally remove the ability to do so, Modders can correct most of Larians unnecessary changes to the rule set.

Those quotes in Grudgebearers post are particularly illuminating.

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My big fear is they never listen to us and this early access, feedback time, is just a big shell game now that they have our money. I hope they prove otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Tabuk
You know the title of this game is not "Dungeons and Dragons 5e, The Video Game" right?

It is Baldurs gate 3. A video game that used Dungeons and Dragons as a guideline or is inspired by D&D. I don't think the goal is, or has ever been to "what ever game matches D&D the best, wins"

That being said, the games art work, the stories the way you can play though 5 times and each time get different stories, the way they make you "feel" you are in their world, has never been done quite like this game.

This game BLOWS AWAY Divinity or pathfinder, those games are kids cartoons in comparison to a full adult movie.
You understand that many games have good graphics, choices and a good story right?
Why go for a D&D license if not to use the mechanics?

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The biggest problem is that they apparently lied about implementation. For real, if they had implemented 5e mechanics RAW in the EA and feedback was overwhelmingly negative, though I'd probably be on side of the few that would've liked it (based on Solasta), I'd understand if they changed it to be more like DOS based on a sales strategy. Games have to make money, I get it, no one wants this to fail.

However there is no evidence that they implemented RAW mechanics at all, but there is evidence that a mostly faithful adaptation works well, in fact, Solasta is getting higher scores than BG3 on GoG.

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Wait so what is your complaint though? The OP failed to provide any concrete issue.

Is it that BG3 is a D&D based game, turn based, with faithfully implemented D&D systems, unlike real time BG1 or BG2 that were at best "D&D themed" in how they handled cast orders, spells, cantrips, controls and everything else?

Or is it that BG3 while incomplete has an incredible story telling, characters, replayability with multiple solutions and paths through most zones/encounters seen so far?

Because those are all upsides, not downsides.

Is this game a BG1/BG2 clone, with absolutely no changes to control scheme and systems? No. But it's not based on D&D Second Edition like BG1/2 were. And if anything it is WAY more faithful to 5E than either of those games were.

Is it different? Sure! Very! But the spirit is there.

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Originally Posted by Redkinn
Wait so what is your complaint though? The OP failed to provide any concrete issue.

Is it that BG3 is a D&D based game, turn based, with faithfully implemented D&D systems, unlike real time BG1 or BG2 that were at best "D&D themed" in how they handled cast orders, spells, cantrips, controls and everything else?

Or is it that BG3 while incomplete has an incredible story telling, characters, replayability with multiple solutions and paths through most zones/encounters seen so far?

Because those are all upsides, not downsides.

Is this game a BG1/BG2 clone, with absolutely no changes to control scheme and systems? No. But it's not based on D&D Second Edition like BG1/2 were. And if anything it is WAY more faithful to 5E than either of those games were.

Is it different? Sure! Very! But the spirit is there.

I think the reality is that with BG 1/2, Bioware was attempting to adapt 2e DnD to the PC, they just chose poorly with the RTwP due to James Ohlen's love of Warhammer, and the popularity of Diablo at the time, and had to abandon parts of 2e that wouldn't work in RTwP because they were too dependent on a turn-based environment.

Whereas Larian, has claimed to be adapting 5e to the PC with BG3, but really just took DOS mechanics and haphazardly slapped a few 5e concepts on top of them.

Last edited by Grudgebearer; 24/04/21 12:57 AM.
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For me the soul of D&D is not so much the mechanics, but the fantasy escape. I probably spent more hours reading through the AD&D books than actually playing the game, and generally I kept the combat mechanics pretty simple when I did play. As a DM, I rolled the monster hit & damage dice behind my screen, so that I could nudge the numbers a bit to make sure the players were having fun. A high level 8HD monster would have maybe 40 hit points, so turn-based combat was not too cumbersome.

I never played DOS, so when I do finally pick up this game it will be all new for me. And that is OK as long as the play is fun and the sense of immersion takes me into another world. I guess one aspect of D&D that I would look for is to be able to play a part in some of the nostalgic original stories revolving around places, names, and items such as the City of Brass, the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, or the Recorder of Ye Cind. Those are the things I often read about but have never gotten a chance to play.

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Now, try to imagine the viewpoint of someone who knows neither 5E, nor Divinity: Original Sin. (I know, picturing what happens in other people's heads is hard.)

What do you think they think of the game? Do they think it's a mess?

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Originally Posted by Ankou
My big fear is they never listen to us and this early access, feedback time, is just a big shell game now that they have our money. I hope they prove otherwise.

Lean it a little closer, I want to whisper and tell you something.

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