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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by PolyHeister
If they did jump as a move bonus that cant be used near enemies, maybe to skip some hard terrain and get some elevation. People wouldn't be super upset about it.

Definitely.

Jump could be a movement action or a bonus action very usefull to get out of surfaces or to play with verticality in combats.

The biggest problem with jump is that it is coupled with disengage and the second problem is that jumping allow us to move further.

Those 2 things wouldn't change the overall experience but it would really increase the "look" of combats (mario, kangaroo, frog), their tactical value and the consequences of our choices (less systematic free things to do at each turn).

If it cost movement AND provoked an attack of opportunity or Cost an Action and could Provoke Attack of Opportunity I would be completely fine with it. Assuming it is decoupled from disengage which also should be an action for most classes. And randomly, I would actually like it if Jump was calculated based on Acrobatics or Athletics and not just Strength Score.

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Agree. Agree. Agree.

1. Jump decoupled with Disengage for sure. I can't tell you how many times I clicked Jump to disengage, my character moves a smidge to get in position to jump, and gets AOO'd. We absolutely need the two decoupled.

2. Jump actually should be a move actions so that you can Disengage as an action, run and jumps to a location if necessary all on one move. I think jump should be an auto-feature. You pick where you want to go and if a jump is necessary the character just makes the jump.

3. Jump should be based on Athletics or Acrobatics. If the character has to make a difficult jump, a roll should be made. If failed, character fails prone and suffers fall damage.

I also think it'd be cool to see and animation difference between a character who uses Athletics for jump versus Acrobatics. If Athletics is higher, use current jump animation. If Acrobatics, show the character flip or something instead, maybe even a somersault and then flip, or something more acrobatic.

And distance really needs to be more believable. Flipping minotaurs jumping 90 feet across the screen is unbelievable. I don't think jump distances are right. Again, I think we need 5e more closely implemented here.

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So. There are many and many and many messages to ask that BG3 follows more DD5 rules and reduce the DOS aspects. Do we know if this heard by Larian ?

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I saw this thread and decided to give Solasta a try. I'm not an expert Baldur's Gate 3 player by any definition. I clocked about 4 hours of gameplay back when it launched, got annoyed with how the combat felt, left some feedback and then just promptly forgot about the game. I tried playing it again recently, but it doesn't feel like dungeons and dragons so I just quit again. I then resolved to just wait until release.

After installing and playing Solasta, I gotta say I'm now even less enthusiastic about BG3 (and I wasn't that enthusiastic to begin with). I honestly have no idea what the BG3 devs could have possibly been referring to when they said they made changes to core systems that didn't translate well to video games. I played Solasta for a few hours in a single sitting and it plays just fine. The combat is decently challenging, resource management between long rests seems balanced so far.

Don't get me wrong though. When BG3 comes out, I'll certainly start a multiplayer game with friends and have a good time. But this thread helped me find the D&D fix I was looking for, and it's a shame that it doesn't actually come from Baldur's Gate.

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Originally Posted by porrage
After installing and playing Solasta, I gotta say I'm now even less enthusiastic about BG3 (and I wasn't that enthusiastic to begin with). I honestly have no idea what the BG3 devs could have possibly been referring to when they said they made changes to core systems that didn't translate well to video games. I played Solasta for a few hours in a single sitting and it plays just fine. The combat is decently challenging, resource management between long rests seems balanced so far.

Don't get me wrong though. When BG3 comes out, I'll certainly start a multiplayer game with friends and have a good time. But this thread helped me find the D&D fix I was looking for, and it's a shame that it doesn't actually come from Baldur's Gate.
It's very telling how many players get the same impression.

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I had started a new playthrough of Solasta 2 days ago.

This game is incredible and the devs did an amazing job during the EA. I hadn't played for a few monthes and it's really cool.
The items are perfectly well balanced,the difficulty is just what I need, there a TONS of meaningfull possibilities to deal with combats (well, it's D&D! creativity and so on...), hide really matter, concentration spell works, ressources management and the rest system is perfect and give us things to think about, etc, etc, etc...

This is a real and deep tactical turn base game as we can expect from a D&D game.

On the other hand I have to agree with Larian : missing can be an issue.
I had no problem yesterday but tonight it was really boring and combats sometimes last 3 more rounds just because everyone missed the 2 last ennemies (party of 6 with 2 companions!)

I totally agree that Baldur's Gate 3 has to deal with the D20.
It's not that easy to have an advantage in Solasta and that's really cool but to be honnest I was bored more than once.

Of course Larian's answer is the worst they could have had with this stupid easy advantage mechanic but if I have 2 (3) complaints about Solasta :

- The flow of combats when you're in a hell miss cycle is terrible. It doesn't happen often, but it happen (and I rolled 25 times for each characters to have good abilities^^)
- The animations are too slow - 2 seconds before he climb, 2 sec before he jump, 2 sec before he open the chest,...
(- The party of 4. It's definitely not enough to enjoy all the classes and subclasses)

I have the feeling that both combats and exploration could be a bit faster and I'm glad Larian is trying to improve this... Even if at the moment it doesn't work at all and create a lot of issues.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 28/04/21 09:23 PM.

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Yeah Solasta has AMAZING rule implementation and I love the combat, but man... the story, characters and voice acting .... wow. It's horrible. =)
Baldur's Gate 3 has the potential to be the best RPG ever imo, but... I soooo hope they fix all the weirdness with rule implementations, homebrewing causing unbalance and stupidity. If they do, it's going to be my religion.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
On the other hand I have to agree with Larian : missing can be an issue.
I had no problem yesterday but tonight it was really boring and combats sometimes last 3 more rounds just because everyone missed the 2 last ennemies (party of 6 with 2 companions!)

This could be solved by a robust loaded/karmic dice system instead of completely breaking the core 5e combat mechanism.

Larian took a sledgehammer to a problem that only needed a chisel.

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Originally Posted by porrage
I honestly have no idea what the BG3 devs could have possibly been referring to when they said they made changes to core systems that didn't translate well to video games.
There was dialogue from Swen before the launch of EA last year saying that they had to find a way to nerf Guiding Bolt because it was too powerful. I should have known then...

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The only things that don't work as well has to do with resting. BG3 is more open world, so resting restrictions are harder. In Solasta, a Long Rest zone is limited in dungeons, so players can't spam Long Rests. Thus, potions and short rests are vital.

In BG3, having fast travel from anywhere at anytime is, admittedly, a nice to have, but as stated in the Camping/Resting thread, allowing players to spam Long Rest ruins the entire game system. See that's thread for more.

Other than Long Rests, BG3 could easily implement most 5e if not all 5e rules. I think Larian isn't doing it to make non-D&D fans happy.

That said, if they did D&D rules right, like Solasta, I really think the non-D&D fans would actually see just how fun D&D can really be. I think that's what erks me so much. They are really not giving D&D 5e a good name right now, and so many non-D&D fans are hating D&D fans because we're upset it's not more D&D 5e.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by porrage
I honestly have no idea what the BG3 devs could have possibly been referring to when they said they made changes to core systems that didn't translate well to video games.
There was dialogue from Swen before the launch of EA last year saying that they had to find a way to nerf Guiding Bolt because it was too powerful. I should have known then...

I think what it really comes down to, is that no one at Larian really grasps 5e beyond the most basic level of understanding. They really should have brought someone over from Wizards full time, to guide them through understanding the rules before they set out "adapting" them.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
On the other hand I have to agree with Larian : missing can be an issue.
I had no problem yesterday but tonight it was really boring and combats sometimes last 3 more rounds just because everyone missed the 2 last ennemies (party of 6 with 2 companions!)

This could be solved by a robust loaded/karmic dice system instead of completely breaking the core 5e combat mechanism.

Larian took a sledgehammer to a problem that only needed a chisel.

Yea or easier, with customizable flat bonuses for highground and/or backstab^^


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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by porrage
I honestly have no idea what the BG3 devs could have possibly been referring to when they said they made changes to core systems that didn't translate well to video games.
There was dialogue from Swen before the launch of EA last year saying that they had to find a way to nerf Guiding Bolt because it was too powerful. I should have known then...

I think what it really comes down to, is that no one at Larian really grasps 5e beyond the most basic level of understanding. They really should have brought someone over from Wizards full time, to guide them through understanding the rules before they set out "adapting" them.

Probably could have gotten Joe Manganiello to explain it to them for free.

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Do you guys actually think that Larian is doing ANY type of mechanic changes that are not authorized by WoTC? That Larian has somehow taken WoTC's intellectual property and just ran with it and are doing whatever they want? How do you know WoTC doesn't ALREADY have a consultant there discussing mechanics? Did it ever cross your mind that MAYBE WOTC is utilizing Solasta as the game for hardcore D&D players, and they want to utilize BG3 as a way to introduce people not familiar, or are not big D&D players into their playerbase?

Last edited by Pandemonica; 29/04/21 05:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Do you guys actually think that Larian is doing ANY type of mechanic changes that are not authorized by WoTC? That Larian has somehow taken WoTC's intellectual property and just ran with it and are doing whatever they want? How do you know WoTC doesn't ALREADY have a consultant there discussing mechanics? Did it ever cross your mind that MAYBE WOTC is utilizing Solasta as the game for hardcore D&D players, and they want to utilize BG3 as a way to introduce people not familiar, or are not big D&D players into their playerbase?
That doesn't really change anything though. If true, it just shifts our unhappiness to include WotC in addition to Larian. I don't care what WotC declares if the result is worse gameplay. [insert "the council has made a stupid-ass decision" meme]

The ease of losing concentration due to surfaces is a bad gameplay decision that makes combat and spellcasters much more frustrating to play.
The high ground Advantage (instead of nothing or a flat bonus) makes a lot of spells and abilities useless and makes having low-ground so incredibly punishing.
The lack of ability to move concentration spells like Moonbeam while wildshaped is a huge nerf to the druid that takes away one of their main abilities and makes wildshape so much less useful in combat.
The ability for all classes to use scrolls and the availability of bonus action disengage&hide makes all classes feel more similar.

If WotC has explicitly approved of all of these things (as opposed to the more likely scenario where they've just given Larian blanket permission to make changes of this scale), then they obviously also have a problem with understanding what makes D&D combat and class individuality fun.

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I don't think WotC gave Larian a blanket permission, because it would be unusual for a corporation their size to be that "freestyle" about their product development. WotC might not have a detailed plan on every change, but I'd expect they have a corporate strategy defining the direction they want to take in the computer gaming market with their various products.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
I don't think WotC gave Larian a blanket permission, because it would be unusual for a corporation their size to be that "freestyle" about their product development. WotC might not have a detailed plan on every change, but I'd expect they have a corporate strategy defining the direction they want to take in the computer gaming market with their various products.
I agree with you. WotC wouldn't give blanket permission to make any change Larian wants. But as you brought up, it's a bit unreasonable for Larian to get WotC's permission for every single change. Larian can probably freely make "changes of this scale"=small scale changes

Height Advantage: The DM is allowed RAW to give Advantage on anything reasonable = no need for WotC's approval
Surfaces: Are technically a thing in D&D 5e (alchemist's fire, various spells) = no need for WotC's approval
Concentration spells while wildshaped = Honestly this might (hopefully) just be an oversight on Larian's part that will be corrected
Action changes to disnengage/hide/etc is probably the only item on my list that really needed WotC's explicit approval

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Do you guys actually think that Larian is doing ANY type of mechanic changes that are not authorized by WoTC? That Larian has somehow taken WoTC's intellectual property and just ran with it and are doing whatever they want? How do you know WoTC doesn't ALREADY have a consultant there discussing mechanics? Did it ever cross your mind that MAYBE WOTC is utilizing Solasta as the game for hardcore D&D players, and they want to utilize BG3 as a way to introduce people not familiar, or are not big D&D players into their playerbase?
WotC is probably willing to allow a lot of Larian's home brew if the dumbed down combat is projected to increase video game sales, even if they hate it as much as I do. They know DOS games sold well so probably Larian gets a lot of freedom. And whoever is taking the financial risk with the AAA budget is calling the shots there. We don't really know what their contract is like.

WotC also allowed Sword Coast Legends devs to completely transform 5e into a "video game" format with cooldowns and such. And it was a total disaster even with Dan Tudge, director or Dragon Age Origins, at the helm. The developer closed down after 22 years in the business. So games can fail. Just with D&D video games, the more they stray from the tabletop rules, the more they tend to suck. Hope WotC remember this lesson with BG3.

Solasta, while being mechanically a better game than BG3, doesn't really do it for me because of the low production values. They bit more than they could chew with the cinematic dialogue and close up shots of the 3D modeled characters. Solasta would benefit greatly from remaining isometric like Pillars of Eternity or Pathfinder and leaving the rest up to the players' imagination instead of zooming in to reveal the horrible fake beards and crude cinematics. And I can't get into the story of Solasta, the writing has too many weak links. I'm sorry for the brutal honesty and I still have deep respect and admiration for Tactical Adventures and I really hope they get to make a sequel that improves all these shortcomings.

What I really want is BG3 that plays like Solasta... aka D&D 5e.

Last edited by 1varangian; 29/04/21 06:05 PM.
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Totally agree 100% 1varangian. Solasta's story is weak. There were too many plot holes for me. The story has a lot of potential, but the execution was not quite so grand. I could go into said details, but that might spoil it for others. Besides, don't get me wrong, I like Solasta and the story. I just think that it could have been way better. Who knows, though, maybe with the finished product in May it will be. smile

But yes. The main point that I totally agree with is that I really want BG3 to play more like Solasta. Maybe not 100% like Solasta, but pretty close to it. The UI is simple and easy to understand, though as some have pointed out before they could have given it some hotkeys to make it less point and clicky. Their UI is also quite large, so they could have made menus smaller to take up less space. The camera was still an issue for me in that game too. I like free camera modes in tactical games. I also like in Drive Mode being able to tilt the camera so I can see better where I'm going. BG3 has this issue too. In order to really see where I'm going, I have to constantly zoom out, and that kinda ruins some of the immersion value for me. I also think that in Drive Mode the WASD keys would be SO helpful for both games. Especially zoomed in in Baldurs, party members will suddenly run in the way and get under my mouse cursor and the next thing I know I'm having a dialogue with them while I'm running down the road.

But Solasta does so many gameplay things right. The game is balanced because they follow 5e rules more strictly. Therefore, all items have meaning and purpose and value. Long Rests cannot be spammed. They have specific long rest zones, and food is required to receive a long rest. You can't just fight a battle, long rest, fight the next battle and rinse and repeat. Actions are Actions and Bonuses are Bonuses. You can't just switch from your sword and shield to bow and then back to sword and shield at the end of your turn just so that you can maintain your shield's AC bonus to defense. They restrict it so that if you switch to Ranged, you can't switch back to Melee. (I suggested to them, though, that if a person didn't actually use an Action after switching that maybe they could switch back. That way, if you make a mistake, you can undo your mistake. As long as you didn't take an Action, I think they should let you switch back.) Spells are easy to locate, easy to know which are Actions versus Bonus Actions, and Special Actions have their own places as well. There is no backstab advantage nerf rules in Solasta. There are no high ground advantage nerf rules. There is a cover bonus rule where if you have cover you get like a +2 to your AC. There is not jumping like super heroes.

I mean, they just do so many rules right, and it really makes the game so much more enjoyable from a game mechanics perspective. I REALLY REALLY hope Larian takes a cue from them.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
WotC is probably willing to allow a lot of Larian's home brew if the dumbed down combat is projected to increase video game sales, even if they hate it as much as I do. They know DOS games sold well so probably Larian gets a lot of freedom. And whoever is taking the financial risk with the AAA budget is calling the shots there. We don't really know what their contract is like.

WotC also allowed Sword Coast Legends devs to completely transform 5e into a "video game" format with cooldowns and such. And it was a total disaster even with Dan Tudge, director or Dragon Age Origins, at the helm. The developer closed down after 22 years in the business. So games can fail. Just with D&D video games, the more they stray from the tabletop rules, the more they tend to suck. Hope WotC remember this lesson with BG3.
Wasn't Sword Coast Legends an action RPG? Dark Alliance is a D&D-based action game to come out this year, so I'd say despite the failure WotC will try again to get into this section of the gaming market. A failure of a single product to sell is not necessarily make a corporation change their strategy.

I doubt WotC is letting Larian do what they want simply as long it makes a game sell well. Even a big name such as BG3 would be considered in the context of their entire portfolio. And WotC' own business model is based on changing the "versions" of their products every few years.

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