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#771530 30/04/21 08:23 AM
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Hello there. smile
I just noticed something today, dunno if i understand it corectly (or if that isnt just some kind of placeholder, or matter or "not implemented yet" ofcourse) but once i have seen it, i seem to be unable to un-seen it. :-/
It seems like in some cases game is measuring distances on X and Y axis only, not even concidering Z axis ... therefore, just as if game dont even know what Verticality is. O_o
Needles to say that this was pretty disapointing, concidering that Larian was using this word a lot in presentation ... but it would explain why spiders are unable to climb the walls. :-/

Examples:
Range of Poison Spray should be 3m ... wich obviously isnt.
But its odd, since when i aimed "Shocking Grasp" on Ragzlin's head, it told me that i have 80% chance to hit ... but when i tryed to hit, it told me i need to use jump to get in reach, so touching spells seem to work corectly. O_o
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here it might be just my poor english ...
If I use the spell "jump", it seems that only the length of my jump will be extended, but the height will remain unchanged.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So ... did i made misstake somewhere, or is this really wrong? laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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It is definitely a thing. Most of the time game engine doesn't take vertical axis into account. Even without looking in code, you can see it. Every ranged spell has a cylindrical area of targeting instead of spherical. Every AOE is flat. Every creature (even flying onece) is glued to the ground.

I made an experiment once. Just swaping positions of caster and target affects wether spell is usable or not.
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....D44EDAE817DD359532E12AD4DA44992CDB432F3/[/img]
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....87A85FA1E34074F0E0DBFA2143CF82F34D35699/[/img]

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I've submitted a lot of documentation to Larian over this. Some conversations with their responders were promising, others less so.

Joined: Oct 2020
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Verticality is indeed very lacking. And as mentioned in the OP, it is all the more so noticeable and disappointing that Larian has been touting verticality left and right. I don't mind too much if a part of the game is not top notch, but if it has been advertised as a strong point of the game ... it just makes the advertisers lose a lot of credibility.

I had a whole go about it in an old post, so I'll copy-paste it here, but in a heavily updated form (I'm still working on submitting something properly ...). There might be things that are outdated though, so feel free to correct me if things have improved, so that I can update things.


Originally Posted by Drath Malorn (albeit in a different form)
Verticality is not there yet.

First, it is not always practical to engage with verticality, because of the camera.

Second and more importantly, many aspects of the game feel programmed for a 2-dimensional world whereas, in my understanding, verticality implies a game world that not only looks 3-dimensional but also plays in 3 dimensions. You have advertised verticality a lot, so performing poorly on this is a lot more noticeable, embarrassing, and gives the feeling that what we bought isn't what was advertised.


2D programming : conversation cutscenes happen regardless of height.

It seems that the triggers for some conversations are thought of in 2D.

Example : in the room with the caged priest of Maglubiyet. My PC was 5m above, on an elevated platform, and not in line of sight. Upon entering the room area at that altitude, a cutscene triggers. Suddenly, my PC is at the level of the cage, talking to the priest. But after the conversation, I'm back to the elevated platform ! Really not great for credibility and immersion.


2D programming : enemy line of sight covers all altitudes.

It feels as if you have programmed a 2D vision cone, which ignores height. This leads to being detected at vertical distances longer than the horizontal distances at which we could be seen.

Striking examples : the beams in the goblin fortress, or the underground tunnel under the Druid Grove when entering from the forest.


2D programming : the foundation block near the chapel can be cut with a sword.

That is another game system that thinks in 2D. Using Cleave or Thunderwave makes the block that is hanging high above ground fall. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other very 2D ways to do that, I haven't tried everything.


Flying creatures don't fly : melee attacks.

Flying creatures hover. They can pass over a surface, like ice or grease, with no problem. So far, so good. But they hover at normal altitude, and can be attacked by anyone with a sword, which is quite lame for a supposedly flying creature.


Flying creatures don't fly : Fly is just a Jump.

When asking an Imp to go down a high position, they'll automatically take the path that walking creatures take. Not a great start.

But when we ask them to use their Fly ability, we realise that it's just a (long distance) Jump. And because Jump uses projectile trajectories, if our Imp is behind allies, it will first move back so that it can Jump. It looks a bit ridicule, but the net result is that it consumes some movement resource that it just shouldn't have. I don't remember how much BG3 was advertised as a tactical RPG, but losing resources randomly because of the controls/pathing doesn't fit that well with my idea of tactical combat.


The Jump spell does not allow me to play with verticality.

It triples the jumping distance, but only horizontally. If the spell makes characters magically-better at jumping, then all jumping directions should be affected. And I believe that Spiders and "flying" creatures have a more vertical Jump, so it's not as if it's not possible with the engine or game's code.

It becomes ridicule when we are in Priestess Gut's room and want to rob Roah Moonglove's shipment. Ok, we can pile up crates to jump on the platform. Did we think about the Jump spell ? Solution not accepted. Think again. (Of course, this scene shouldn't even be a puzzle to begin with, and characters should just use their arms to climb, but I've said this elsewhere and I'll avoid digressing too much.)

Since you want to make verticality a big thing, this is an opportunity not to miss. Yes, Feather Fall is cool. But Jump needs to be a source of verticality-related fun as well !


Climbing ladders costs no movement.

You can cross more distance (actual, 3D distance) with one ladder than with a horizontal move. A tiny puddle of mud slows you down (or consumes a Bonus Action if you want to jump above it), but a ladder is not difficult terrain, and costs no movement at all !


Throwing items seems to ignore verticality.

I would have no problems with arrows or bolts : ranged weapons are all about giving projectiles more momentum than you could with your arms. But I am a bit more dubious of the throwing of grenades.

Examples :
- In the goblin fortress, enemies on the ground can throw fire potions in the beams.
- In the blighted village, enemies on the lowest ground (south gate) can throw potions on the roof.

This is perhaps the intent, but I found it quite surprising.


It is often difficulty to target enemies that are much higher.

It can be quite difficult to select as target very high enemies for a ranged attack when all your team is below, because of the camera. UPDATE : this has improved a bit with Patch 4, since we can now target portraits.


Spells having problems with 3-dimensionality.

One part of the problem is that it is difficult to choose a target, which can be a creature or a centre point for an AOE, especially when this target is higher. The problem here is not the camera controls and the selection of the target, it's the mechanism. Some spells tell us our target is "too high", when an arrow or another spell can perfectly reach. It seems as if the caster of these spells assumes that the creature or centre point of the AOE must be on the same level as them. UPDATE : this has (stealthily) improved.

The other part of the problem is that not all AOE seem to be 3D-compatible. Silence looks like it works properly (on AOE only, of course Silence doesn't work), but that's about the only one. UPDATE : this has (stealthily) improved. In the Blighted Village, I was able to put to Sleep 2 goblins at different altitudes. The AOE visualiser is still very 2D though.

@Dastan McLay, RagnarokCzD : nice pictures. I like them a lot (in a "what the hell is wrong with me" kind of way).

@Niara : it's good to know there are at least some things related to verticality that are progressing, even though they haven't been and perhaps won't be pushed into the EA build.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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I will never understand why in BG3 and Solasta verticality was even made a selling point. D&D never used verticality much and most people try to avoid it because of the additional math and because it nerfs melee characters hard.

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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
@Dastan McLay, RagnarokCzD : nice pictures. I like them a lot (in a "what the hell is wrong with me" kind of way).
No idea what you mean. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Ixal #771569 30/04/21 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ixal
I will never understand why in BG3 and Solasta verticality was even made a selling point. D&D never used verticality much and most people try to avoid it because of the additional math and because it nerfs melee characters hard.

Heck yes. Also in BG3, more or less every damn combat includes it, meaning you must spend so much damn time just moving.

Ixal #771580 30/04/21 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ixal
it nerfs melee characters hard.
Unless you spend all campaign in a dungeon or inside a room with 5 feet ceiling and never face flying creatures, you'll have to acknowledge vertical distance for melee characters. So I don't see how correct calculetion can nerf them.
If anything - it's ranged abilities that get a bonus to their reach, cause vertical part gets ignored.

Ixal #771618 01/05/21 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ixal
I will never understand why in BG3 and Solasta verticality was even made a selling point. D&D never used verticality much and most people try to avoid it because of the additional math and because it nerfs melee characters hard.
Personally I like the idea of verticality if implemented right. It adds quite a tactical layer.


Romances in RPGs brought us to this
VenusP #771619 01/05/21 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by VenusP
Originally Posted by Ixal
I will never understand why in BG3 and Solasta verticality was even made a selling point. D&D never used verticality much and most people try to avoid it because of the additional math and because it nerfs melee characters hard.
Personally I like the idea of verticality if implemented right. It adds quite a tactical layer.

Verticality in Solasta mean flying, levitation, walking on the walls, push creatures, take cover, break the lign of sight to re-hide etc etc... Everything that allow you to play with verticality in D&D.
There are many new things no TB games had done before if I'm not wrong.

In BG3 it's currently limited to push ennemies and going "higher" (walking, jumping, basic actions) to increase your %to hit.

At the moment I understand why it was a selling point in Solasta because it add something new. I don't really in BG3 but I hope they have more things in mind than "shove" and the very common in TB games "our position really matter".

Last edited by Maximuuus; 01/05/21 10:06 AM.
Maximuuus #771652 01/05/21 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Verticality in Solasta mean flying, levitation, walking on the walls, push creatures, take cover, break the lign of sight to re-hide etc etc... Everything that allow you to play with verticality in D&D.
There are many new things no TB games had done before if I'm not wrong.

In BG3 it's currently limited to push ennemies and going "higher" (walking, jumping, basic actions) to increase your %to hit.

At the moment I understand why it was a selling point in Solasta because it add something new. I don't really in BG3 but I hope they have more things in mind than "shove" and the very common in TB games "our position really matter".

Pretty much. Solasta has it implemented a lot more thoughtfully than 'get to high ground or else you're going to have a really bad time'. Verticality is an optional but tactical feature there, not a mandatory system that you're forced to interact with in every fight.

Certain enemies love to abuse flight and wall-walking against you in Solasta, but it's balanced out by the fact that you can easily do the same thing yourself with certain equipment and spells, ready actions exist so that you can just wait for them to come to you as most of those enemies only have melee attacks, and that fall damage is a lot more lethal there if you manage to knock them down (via a sleep spell, shoving a wall-hugging enemy off that wall, or breaking their concentration if their flying or wall-walking is spell-based instead of an inherent ability).


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