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I'm referring more to how there is no real romance before the party and then all at once it's like BAM.

I get Lae'zel and Astarion. I also never triggered Gale's. Honestly, I could have triggered romance with Shadowheart but feared some steamy scene. So knowing they aren't all that way is better. Wyll's convo was creepy to me. I got total bro vibes from him and then, "Let's bunk."

But ultimately it feels forced because like I said, all at once. If Shadowheart maybe wanted to meet alone to share her secret, and have a romantic interlude, Astarion maybe tried to tease if you let him bite you, little moments of romance throughout, that would make more sense.

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Originally Posted by footface
Idk what you mean about things being unflirty. Laezel is the only one who's like "let's fuck NOW.". Shadowhearts scene is filled with tender moments and subtext, and Astarions scene has a TON of flirting. As for the foreplay, that scene is under construction. We'll have to see how it plays out in the final game

Personally, I think before the romance triggers for any character, or the start of it as I am assuming is the point of the party scene, you should have to trigger a couple "flirt" conversation options during gameplay. DA:O did that, and that game is probably a gold standard for me personally for companion progression. It is just jarring, not having any interest in other companions, then all of a sudden that night (maybe one of those damn tieflings dumped some spanish fly in the beer) every companion wants to jump you for bare minimal approval. Minimal meaning nothing more than story progression choices.

The scenes themselves, or what they have available are very well done. Nothing too saucy from what you can see in a rated R movie. I mean the Minthara one was great, the Shadow one was wholesome (which I think she is meant for the main female relationship storyline I am guessing) and the Astarion one I am sure got all those goth, vampire lovers full of joy. Lae'zel I haven't gotten to pop yet, though I saw it on YT and it was fitting for her character.

I am just glad that Larian has displayed some nerve to include a more adult scene in the game. I guess that is a perk to a European developer.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
But ultimately it feels forced because like I said, all at once. If Shadowheart maybe wanted to meet alone to share her secret, and have a romantic interlude, Astarion maybe tried to tease if you let him bite you, little moments of romance throughout, that would make more sense.

I'm pretty sure that's how it is. Shadowhearts wants to meet alone, but specifically she does so to bond, just the two of you.

During Astarions scene, I had the option to offer him my neck or trust him not to bite me.

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Technically speaking, while female players have three attractive male romance options to choose from (Astarion, Gale and Wyll), the straight men do have Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Minthara, so the playing field is actually pretty even!

As a male I would have to differ in opinion here.... The three female options are just not that attractive at all. Laezel is like a 2.5 , Shadowhart a solid 5, and Minthara a 6 -6.5 at best for physical beauty. And all three have personality's of 3 and lower on a scale of 1-10. They are just not that appealing to either hang out with (personality) or enticing to look at (physical attractiveness). And Minthara has the worst personality of the three, unless you as the "partner" are fond of being patronized, victimized, and are in general a masochist in relationships. In that she delivers in spades.

So I agree with the OP on several points and yeah, I am American and most Americans tend to be prudes regarding sex, but that is because historically the first groups to migrate from Europe to here were puritans, and that has affected how the "American culture" has developed over time (sadly). So yes, I agree this game needs more romance options that are appealing to a broader spectrum of players that what is currently offered. The current female character options are all just bad choices to have any kind of game relationship with.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.

There are a lot of dead bodies, goblins eating dead adventurers, goblin children kicking a dead body (and I THINK you can kill those kids), the whole kicking people into a spider pit, animal cruelty with the owlbear cub, slavery, torture, and in general things that would keep the game's rating Mature and other area's equivalents of Mature.

With the Gnoll, if you got the symbol of the absolute you can make her eat the Zhents, eat her own pack, and then make her eat herself (though due to my like of gnolls I'd rather somehow recruit her with the tadpole).

You can doublecross the Zhentarim which actually leads to the guy you are doublecrossing them with being captured, tortured, and then executed.

You can pick the evil side and slaughter the tieflings. You can also murder people and then try to speak with their corpses.

And worst of all, you can be a dick to the dog.

Overall there are fairly dark and bloody parts of the game. Further on in the swamp there is the Hag which is a very typical hag with her basement of people she has "helped".

No, the goblins camp was predictable. Eating people, I'd have to replay/watch a let's play but I only remember the soup. You can find dead bodies in most games, along with animal cruelty, & whatever else.

In most games you are the hero that runs around an murders the villains, like I said very PG13.

This is just my opinion though.

Last edited by fallenj; 05/05/21 06:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.
So ...
Eating sentient beings (they rosted a Dwarf)
Self-harming priest
Torturing a man, with all juicy detailed dialogue options
Burning a mark to your own flesh
Throwing rocs at caged animal
Feeding poor Goblin to Spiders

None of that seem like adult material to you? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm referring more to how there is no real romance before the party and then all at once it's like BAM.
Call me a perverd if you like ... ( laugh )
But i like it this way.
I allways find it kinda funny that in big titles (Mass Effect, Dragon Age (maybe except Origin), ...) romance is created so slowly.
I mean, yes we all know that Protagonist will survive until the end of the story ... but look at it from their perspective: "I can die litteraly anytime in next hour, there is someone who is interested in me ... im interested in him/her too ... is there litteraly any reason to deny some pleasure?" I think not.

Its quite simple really ...
Sometimes good relationship starts with holding hands and shy kisses ... and in time evolves to visiting a swingers party.
Sometimes good relationship starts at that swingers party ... and in time people find their bond is keep getting stronger.
Maybe im exception around here ... but i like it that way. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 05/05/21 09:30 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by Aazo
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Technically speaking, while female players have three attractive male romance options to choose from (Astarion, Gale and Wyll), the straight men do have Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Minthara, so the playing field is actually pretty even!

As a male I would have to differ in opinion here.... The three female options are just not that attractive at all. Laezel is like a 2.5 , Shadowhart a solid 5, and Minthara a 6 -6.5 at best for physical beauty. And all three have personality's of 3 and lower on a scale of 1-10. They are just not that appealing to either hang out with (personality) or enticing to look at (physical attractiveness). And Minthara has the worst personality of the three, unless you as the "partner" are fond of being patronized, victimized, and are in general a masochist in relationships. In that she delivers in spades.

So I agree with the OP on several points and yeah, I am American and most Americans tend to be prudes regarding sex, but that is because historically the first groups to migrate from Europe to here were puritans, and that has affected how the "American culture" has developed over time (sadly). So yes, I agree this game needs more romance options that are appealing to a broader spectrum of players that what is currently offered. The current female character options are all just bad choices to have any kind of game relationship with.

Indeed! up

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Larian style <adult> content seems to be extremely cartoonized, even the gore. I dont get dirty/scary adult atmosphere vibes from BG3. Its more on the weirdly funny side. Kind of like DOS2...
The starting dungeon in BG2 feels scarier, grittier, darker and more <adult> than BG3's first scenes. I mean even that first FMV with irrenicus is quite nightmarish. Everyone getting tortured, Jaheiras husband DEAD, failed experiments everywhere, sex slaves, imprisoned genie etc...

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.
So ...
Eating sentient beings (they rosted a Dwarf)
Self-harming priest
Torturing a man, with all juicy detailed dialogue options
Burning a mark to your own flesh
Throwing rocs at caged animal
Feeding poor Goblin to Spiders

None of that seem like adult material to you? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm referring more to how there is no real romance before the party and then all at once it's like BAM.
Call me a perverd if you like ... ( laugh )
But i like it this way.
I allways find it kinda funny that in big titles (Mass Effect, Dragon Age (maybe except Origin), ...) romance is created so slowly.
I mean, yes we all know that Protagonist will survive until the end of the story ... but look at it from their perspective: "I can die litteraly anytime in next hour, there is someone who is interested in me ... im interested in him/her too ... is there litteraly any reason to deny some pleasure?" I think not.

Its quite simple really ...
Sometimes good relationship starts with holding hands and shy kisses ... and in time evolves to visiting a swingers party.
Sometimes good relationship starts at that swingers party ... and in time people find their bond is keep getting stronger.
Maybe im exception around here ... but i like it that way. wink

Why did you call yourself a pervert? I didn't call anyone any names. Please don't assume that I would.

Humans like sex. We were kinda created to like it. I know not everyone here is Christian but if you believe such things you know that God made Adam-kind and then said, "Now be fruitful and multiply."

So there's a reason we like it so much. We were commanded to do it. That said, there's lots of reasons why it can trip people up and cause us issues in life. Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with. THAT is why I disapprove of sex in media. It can mess people up and hurts them if they aren't careful. God never said, "Thou shalt not watch pixel images reenacting sexual experiences." He made laws to try to keep people from hurting themselves and others.

I say this because Im not out here judging you or something. You like the system as is? Ok. Doesn't make you a perv.

Anyway, I get Lae'zel and Astarion being abrupt and just, "Let's do it." I even get that Wyll might. Heck, they all might. What feels forced is that they all suddenly want to have a romance all on the same night.

My suggestion is that it should be different timing for different romances. Maybe Shadowheart wants to spend some alone time with you before the celebration event. She met you first. Maybe she would ask to enjoy your company when the dialogue is triggered where she tells you her secret. Maybe Gale's would be triggered later, when you are in the Underdark.

Astarion makes sense at the celebration. They are enjoying a victory and drinking and such. He feels free and good. Wyll too. You helped kill his enemies.

Lae'zel...I don't know. Maybe. She likes victory and death. Still, even two soliciting you at the same time seems a bit much. It can happen, mind you, but it just feels forced. I would think Lae' el would be more vulnerable after the Gith side quest. Her people betrayed her. If you responded right at that point, I could see her sneaking over to you that night and offering herself. That would feel more appropriate.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Larian style <adult> content seems to be extremely cartoonized, even the gore. I dont get dirty/scary adult atmosphere vibes from BG3. Its more on the weirdly funny side. Kind of like DOS2...
The starting dungeon in BG2 feels scarier, grittier, darker and more <adult> than BG3's first scenes. I mean even that first FMV with irrenicus is quite nightmarish. Everyone getting tortured, Jaheiras husband DEAD, failed experiments everywhere, sex slaves, imprisoned genie etc...

Your perception will not cancel age rating. Blood is still blood, murder is still murder, even if it seems cartoonized for you.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, I get Lae'zel and Astarion being abrupt and just, "Let's do it." I even get that Wyll might. Heck, they all might. What feels forced is that they all suddenly want to have a romance all on the same night.

I believe that for Astarion and Lae, this is not romance, its just sex. After sex, Astarion can tell you not to tell anyone about what happened between you. For Lae, you are only reward for a good battle. So it's fine for them. Shadow has a very proper romantic scene where you get to know each other better. I've never seen Wyll and Gale scene.. But I know that Wyll likes alcohol, so it can be explained by this. Gale is the most incomprehensible character for me in romance with him.

I really wonder how it will be with other companions. Nevertheless, I believe that this is 'romance' only for Shadow. For everyone else, it's like having sex with Fane from DOS2, just an experience, not a start relationship. So I don't understand why people feel this way about it. And, again, game still doesn't have all cutscenes and dialogues.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So ...
Eating sentient beings (they rosted a Dwarf)
Self-harming priest
Torturing a man, with all juicy detailed dialogue options
Burning a mark to your own flesh
Throwing rocs at caged animal
Feeding poor Goblin to Spiders

None of that seem like adult material to you? O_o

Nope, just basic Violence. Starting to wonder if its just age difference and people are just prunes now a days. I remember my cousin being extremely against her kids playing borderlands 2 and at there age I was watching ren and stimpy, beavis and butthead, old loony toon vids, tom and jerry, ect.

Read a ton of comic books as a teen also which introduced a lot of different themes, usually just in the form of basic violence. Example: wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out of his body, pretty sure that was on the front cover of the comic.

Arnold movies, jurassic park, starship troopers, van damme, steven seagal, ect

youtube clip contains violence


Priests would hurt themselves in movies, generally common theme & Cannibalism another basic theme

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why did you call yourself a pervert? I didn't call anyone any names. Please don't assume that I would.
I didnt ... i just offered that option, as they say "to whom it may concern" wink
And why? To expres it dont bother me at all. smile Its common behaviour in Czech. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Humans like sex. We were kinda created to like it. I know not everyone here is Christian but if you believe such things you know that God made Adam-kind and then said, "Now be fruitful and multiply."
I dont quite understand why mention this ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with.
This is certainly interesting topic, about wich i would love to talk ...
I believe its about the people ... as they say: "When you take hammer and smash someone's head ... who is to blame? You, or the hammer?" wink
But since there is a huge potential for offtopics on this topic, I hope you understand that I will no longer comment on it in this thread from now on. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
THAT is why I disapprove of sex in media. It can mess people up and hurts them if they aren't careful. God never said, "Thou shalt not watch pixel images reenacting sexual experiences." He made laws to try to keep people from hurting themselves and others.
It would be hard for him to tell this around 2000(?) years before invention of pixel ...
Luckily you can allways skip it. O_o

But once again ... this isnt exacly fault of those pixels. O_o
Speaking for myself, those scenes are helping me to understand certain characters, in their own way, they are part of storytelling. For example:
Astarion takes sex as fun, and nothing more ... he dont seem to care so much who will be with him, as long as he gets good time.
Lae'zel concider sex as a reward ... yet she dont offer herself, she "claim you", if that makes sence in english.
Minthara for example seem to take sex as only another usefull tool to control others i dont believe there is much more in it for her. For her, the "morning" was even better, if you sleep with her ... even she seem to be surprised by that how much she care about you. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, I get Lae'zel and Astarion being abrupt and just, "Let's do it." I even get that Wyll might. Heck, they all might. What feels forced is that they all suddenly want to have a romance all on the same night.
They just survived raid ...
If dozens of people die, and you are not one of them ... i believe that can provide you quite the perspective.
And if this is not place to appreciate life with everything it offers, i cant quite imagine what situation would be better. laugh

Keep in mind that from story perspective its a little more intensive than turn based combat, where you meanwhile manage to do few cofee and snack breaks. laugh
Adrenaline has done its job, now it's the turn of dopamine and endorphins. Supported by a little wine ... well, let's just say I'm behind Larian's decision and believe that "being horny" is the most natural state of mind in such a situation. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
My suggestion is that it should be different timing for different romances. Maybe Shadowheart wants to spend some alone time with you before the celebration event. She met you first. Maybe she would ask to enjoy your company when the dialogue is triggered where she tells you her secret. Maybe Gale's would be triggered later, when you are in the Underdark.
Well ... for reasons i writed abowe, it fits me good where it is ...
If you would say aditional romance, i would have zero problem ... and when i say romance, i mean it litteraly, no need for aditional porn just some relationship progress.

I believe it would be fine for some more romantic characters(Shadow(?), Gale, maybe Wyll), to allow us to sleep together since *that night* ... but for others (Astarion, Lae'zel) being refused. :P

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I would think Lae' el would be more vulnerable after the Gith side quest. Her people betrayed her. If you responded right at that point, I could see her sneaking over to you that night and offering herself. That would feel more appropriate.
Same reaction as abowe ... switch word "change" for word "add" and i agree. laugh


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Originally Posted by fallenj
Nope, just basic Violence. Starting to wonder if its just age difference and people are just prunes now a days.
Dunno ...
I dont think people changed in any way, more like they just want to be legally covered.
You put there "mature rating" and none you put there is tabu ... you put there "13+ rating" and you can have problems, when anyone else can give you hard time, when they would concider your content to be inapropiate. wink

Originally Posted by fallenj
Read a ton of comic books as a teen also which introduced a lot of different themes, usually just in the form of basic violence. Example: wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out of his body, pretty sure that was on the front cover of the comic.
And i would bet that comics had somewhere on that front cover rating that tells you its "ment to be for mature audience". wink
Wanna gues why? smile


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Nope, just basic Violence. Starting to wonder if its just age difference and people are just prunes now a days.
Dunno ...
I dont think people changed in any way, more like they just want to be legally covered.
You put there "mature rating" and none you put there is tabu ... you put there "13+ rating" and you can have problems, when anyone else can give you hard time, when they would concider your content to be inapropiate. wink

Originally Posted by fallenj
Read a ton of comic books as a teen also which introduced a lot of different themes, usually just in the form of basic violence. Example: wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out of his body, pretty sure that was on the front cover of the comic.
And i would bet that comics had somewhere on that front cover rating that tells you its "ment to be for mature audience". wink
Wanna gues why? smile

comics? they are teen like i said, not 17+ mature

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@RagnarokCzD

What I am referring to by, "Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with," is that sex is like a drug. It is very addictive. It is one of the most powerful drives that a person can have. What you allow into your mind affects you long-term. It is imprinted down deep in your subconscious mind. When you see images of people having sex on TV or in movies or video games or whatever, those images become implanted into your brain. The experiences the characters have in video games and TV and movies and such are pure fantasy, and that pure fantasy becomes people's ideals for romance and sex; ideals others can't live up to.

Several negative things can occur as a result:

1. If you are married or in an relationship, or even if in the future you are in a relationship, you may develop certain expectations, without even realizing it, for your significant other that they don't like and/or that they aren't able to fulfill. Because what you have ingrained into your brain is something unrealistic, it can harm your real experiences. CAN, mind you. It doesn't necessarily mean that it does or will for everyone. Either way, by putting this stuff into your head, you can develop unhealthy behaviors and attitudes towards your significant other. Basically, you put the fantasy on a pedestal that no one can really attain to because this is the kind of thing that excited you in the stuff you've been watching. So, you may even wind up ruining your relationship with your significant other because he/she is not living up to your fantasy expectations. Case in point, some women starve themselves because they are trying to mold themselves into some unrealistic video game woman's image just so they can feel more attractive to men. That's not healthy.

2. Your spouse/significant other may not like the fact that you are watching or playing those kinds of things. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Even if they say they do, they may not truly be okay with it. Some will say they are okay with it, even if they are not, because they are trying to make you happy. But deep down inside, they probably resent it. Why? Because they may feel that you have to fantasize about some video game character or whatever in order to do anything with them. They don't excite you enough, so you need some sort of pixels all put together to form the image of people having sex in order to get excited enough to do something with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone is that way. Some may truly be perfectly fine with it. However, I think it might surprise you to find out how many are not okay with it.

3. Some can't control their sexual appetites. The more this stuff is readily accessible to them, the easier it is for them to consume it. But, like many addictions, the more they consume it, the more they need it and the bigger the fix that they need. This CAN, not always, but CAN lead to individuals doing things they shouldn't do; aka sexual crimes. Again, this is not saying that it DOES lead to it. I am just saying it CAN help it along and assist in nudging some people down that path.

Therefore, putting this stuff in games and TV and so forth is playing with fire. Although there are many who can handle it and not do something stupid, there are many who can't. You feed the problem for those who can't handle it, and therefore potentially harm them further and those in their lives.

This world has enough problems with relationships and marriages and divorces and sexual crimes. So, why are we doing things that could potentially make the situation worse as opposed to better?

That is why I don't like sex in games and such. I think it does more harm than good, and frankly, I don't need it. I like romance in games because I think it's sweet and fun and so forth, and it adds a level of emotional connection, but I prefer when games and such "fade to black." You know what happened. You don't need to show me the details. Let the characters have their privacy. Let them have their intimate moment without you watching. lol. As if pixels have intimate moments and need privacy. smile

Anyway, all that aside. If they got rid of sex and maybe toned down a bit on the violence and gore, they could make this a Teen game. THAT was actually my overall point. Wouldn't they sell more games by making it more available to a wider audience? Parents who don't like their kids playing games with Sex and Gore might allow them to play BG3 if they got rid of the sex scenes and some of the graphic violence. I honestly am not bothered by the violence level, but whatever. The point is that if they tamed down these things, which aren't really necessary to the story, they could lower the Mature Rating to Teen and thus open the game up to more players. Many parents these days are even willing to let their littlest ones play Teen games if they don't have a lot of swearing and graphic violence and especially sex. So although I'm sure a lot of people on this thread love this stuff, I was thinking Larian could actually get more sales if they tone it down a bit to broaden the audience. I'm not saying tone it town a ton. I'm just saying a bit. It honestly doesn't take much these days to go from Mature to Teen.

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@GM4Him It's up to the weak to commit to being stronger. All you described is weak will, low resilience, and generally deceptive behavior. Cutting them off only creates taboo's for tempting. It's up to individuals to better themselves. Which has nothing to do with the hobby.

If a game or whatever was enough to destroy a relationship, by proxy or otherwise, that's a you problem. You didn't deserve a successful relationship in the first place.

Sex is not a drug nor harmful in anyway. It's the people that are harmful and it doesn't even have to involve sex at all. Sex is often the scape goat for more complicated issues that inescapably come from people.

Sorry you have that all wrong.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
@RagnarokCzD

What I am referring to by, "Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with," is that sex is like a drug. It is very addictive. It is one of the most powerful drives that a person can have. What you allow into your mind affects you long-term. It is imprinted down deep in your subconscious mind. When you see images of people having sex on TV or in movies or video games or whatever, those images become implanted into your brain. The experiences the characters have in video games and TV and movies and such are pure fantasy, and that pure fantasy becomes people's ideals for romance and sex; ideals others can't live up to.

I'll have to respecfully disagree. I would strongly take distance from the statement that sex, in any kind of normal form (which is highly subjective, but lets go with the average "common sense" here), would be more destructive than any other behavior when handled with moderation.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. If you are married or in an relationship, or even if in the future you are in a relationship, you may develop certain expectations, without even realizing it, for your significant other that they don't like and/or that they aren't able to fulfill. Because what you have ingrained into your brain is something unrealistic, it can harm your real experiences. CAN, mind you. It doesn't necessarily mean that it does or will for everyone. Either way, by putting this stuff into your head, you can develop unhealthy behaviors and attitudes towards your significant other. Basically, you put the fantasy on a pedestal that no one can really attain to because this is the kind of thing that excited you in the stuff you've been watching. So, you may even wind up ruining your relationship with your significant other because he/she is not living up to your fantasy expectations. Case in point, some women starve themselves because they are trying to mold themselves into some unrealistic video game woman's image just so they can feel more attractive to men. That's not healthy.

This statement sounds a lot like teeny girls joking around with "Disney gave me unrealistic expectations of men". Most people know what is real, and what is not. Sure - there are *DEFINITELY* cases where individuals have been ruined, in one way or another, from watching too much porn something similar - but that is by far a minority. And - this is problematic with pretty much anything that is overdone, even generally healthy things like exercising.

I'd argue that if we're to see sexual accomplishment in fiction as potential danger, then romantic movies for women should be considered dangerous as well since... Well, just how realistic is it that each and every dude should endure often toxic relationships and literally drop anything in terms of dreams for their girl? That's not healthy - for either part tbh. ESPECIALLY not the entire "you can change the bad guy into a real sweetheart"-perspective - like the last thing there is outright dangerous in the real world - but that does not stop people from making those kinds of movies.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. Your spouse/significant other may not like the fact that you are watching or playing those kinds of things. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Even if they say they do, they may not truly be okay with it. Some will say they are okay with it, even if they are not, because they are trying to make you happy. But deep down inside, they probably resent it. Why? Because they may feel that you have to fantasize about some video game character or whatever in order to do anything with them. They don't excite you enough, so you need some sort of pixels all put together to form the image of people having sex in order to get excited enough to do something with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone is that way. Some may truly be perfectly fine with it. However, I think it might surprise you to find out how many are not okay with it.

That is a problem that each couple will have to deal with. If you're not grown enough to talk these things through in an honest matter - then I'd doubt you're mature enough for a serious relationship at all. If my SO says something is okay, I am not gonna second guess it unless something seems severely off. We value open communication above all else - I am okay with him watching porn if he feels the need to, and he is okay with me romancing NPCs in a video game (or even romance characters from other players in DnD roleplaying). Honestly - keeping it in BG3, when I didn't want to romance any character on my ranger because they were an ill fit for her - my SO were the one who said "You should totally try the vampire dude though" ...

What I want to say is that In the end - we both know that we are with each other for a reason - and that reason is much stronger than anything related to movies, porn or video games romances. We function in adult life together and we have a lot of hobby things in common. Momentarily seeking refuge to satisfy one's physical or mental needs is not about your partner not being enough but rather just RESPECTING WHEN YOUR PARTNER SAYS NO or when they need their alone-time. Because truth is - in reality, two beings will not always feel like doing the same thing at the same time. We do not always want sex at the same time and we do not always want to cuddle up and be romantic at the same time - this way, one can satisfy ones need when the other one needs a breather. It is a great way to avoid nagging and avoiding guilt-tripping your partner into satisfying your needs - because nagging and guilt-tripping would be a MUCH bigger problem than my SO looking at some boobs or booty for a few minutes. Sure - one could argue that "you could just wait" and sure. One could - but you would still be putting pressure on your partner unintentionally, they would be very much aware of that you're waiting and that could stress them even further. Alternatively - in the long run you could be doing damage to yourself by denying your own mental or physical needs out of respect for your partner. I think we can all agree that neither of those two scenarios could be considered healthy.

Besides - once again - one could easily argue that guys should pull the same argument about all women drooling over actors in romantic series / movies. I mean, have you seen the comment section to some of series that are popular with the ladies? I most certainly have and the pure physical thirst could easily rival the most thirsty parts of the internet.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. Some can't control their sexual appetites. The more this stuff is readily accessible to them, the easier it is for them to consume it. But, like many addictions, the more they consume it, the more they need it and the bigger the fix that they need. This CAN, not always, but CAN lead to individuals doing things they shouldn't do; aka sexual crimes. Again, this is not saying that it DOES lead to it. I am just saying it CAN help it along and assist in nudging some people down that path.

Therefore, putting this stuff in games and TV and so forth is playing with fire. Although there are many who can handle it and not do something stupid, there are many who can't. You feed the problem for those who can't handle it, and therefore potentially harm them further and those in their lives.

This world has enough problems with relationships and marriages and divorces and sexual crimes. So, why are we doing things that could potentially make the situation worse as opposed to better?

That is why I don't like sex in games and such. I think it does more harm than good, and frankly, I don't need it. I like romance in games because I think it's sweet and fun and so forth, and it adds a level of emotional connection, but I prefer when games and such "fade to black." You know what happened. You don't need to show me the details. Let the characters have their privacy. Let them have their intimate moment without you watching. lol. As if pixels have intimate moments and need privacy. smile

No. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever anywhere that porn or any form of sexual content increase the risk of people ACTUALLY committing sexual crimes. This has already been researched during the outrages about GTA years and years ago along with the entire "video games cause violence" rant - and it has, from a scientific point of view, been debunked. You know why? Because regular people can very much tell the difference between reality and fiction. Sex in games and movies does not "do more harm than good" unless you take religious or cultural values into account (which is another debate entirely and not suitable for these forums so I'll keep it biological / super general / functional-human-being-ish). That is an opinion based on nothing but your own personal preference (which is fine and all - we all have preferences and I got slightly horrified when I saw the Minthara romance on YouTube because that sht is very much NOT my cup of tea - but this does not give me the right to go spreading false propaganda about what it might or might not cause people to do - there has already been A LOT of research in the matter and it has been SEVERELY debunked).

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, all that aside. If they got rid of sex and maybe toned down a bit on the violence and gore, they could make this a Teen game. THAT was actually my overall point. Wouldn't they sell more games by making it more available to a wider audience? Parents who don't like their kids playing games with Sex and Gore might allow them to play BG3 if they got rid of the sex scenes and some of the graphic violence. I honestly am not bothered by the violence level, but whatever. The point is that if they tamed down these things, which aren't really necessary to the story, they could lower the Mature Rating to Teen and thus open the game up to more players. Many parents these days are even willing to let their littlest ones play Teen games if they don't have a lot of swearing and graphic violence and especially sex. So although I'm sure a lot of people on this thread love this stuff, I was thinking Larian could actually get more sales if they tone it down a bit to broaden the audience. I'm not saying tone it town a ton. I'm just saying a bit. It honestly doesn't take much these days to go from Mature to Teen.

Perhaps, but they would definitely lose sales on the adult audience by including content made for teens - because lets be real, most adult find things that teenys like extremely cringe. And right now, CRPGs are more common amongst adults than teens - I would assume, since it is in Larians best interest to make a good amount of sales, that their producers already done the math.

BESIDES - I am really curious about your reasoning. WHY would it be worse to have a "incorrect" picture of sex than having a "incorrect" picture about relationships overall?

You literally say you don't mind romances because they are sweet and all - but at the same time you condemn sex because it fills the player with "unreal expectations". Anybody who have had a relationship can tell you that the vast majority of relationships does not work like relationship in videos games (mainly cause we do not live in an action fantasy world, but yeah...) - why is the idea of sex more harmful to get wrong than the idea of relationships overall? I personally, if I were to start thinking about condemning something for ruining relationships, would turn my gaze to romantic teen series first and foremost (but I wouldn't, because I severely believe that functional human beings can tell the difference between entertainment and real life).

Last edited by Dez; 05/05/21 11:08 PM. Reason: Grammar. Grammar matters :x

Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
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Um, most of what you listed are problems of the individual and not problems of media but I will only address your statement about it being able to be made into a Teen game.

I am of the mind that art should be at whatever "rating" that is intended by the artist for their art. That is to say, I think the game should have whatever rating it is going for. If the developers want to add sex and violence, all the power to them because that is in the vision of the game they intend to make and lies in the vision of many (but not all) of those supporting the game. Watering something down to seek a larger audience is actually a little bit of an issue in media in my eyes, cause it is typically not from the perspective of the artist(s) but businessmen. Often times the lines between a PG-13 movie and an R rated film is just how many times a character cursed. That line can similarly be blurred with video games. Often times Teen games have violence and sexual content that is more than their M rated counterparts but the only difference is that there isn't blood with that violence, or characters are more clothed while being sexual. The lines can often be arbitrary. Also often times watering something down just to reach a Teen rating can be detrimental to the experience. An example that comes to mind is Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe, whereas the origin series of Mortal Kombat is known for its violence and gore, it is expected with the series, yet they made sure to push for a Teen rating so they could get more Teen comic and superhero fans. However this actually made some fans of MK unhappy as violence was an expected part of MK, it was a major part of its aesthetic. This can go in the other direct, sometimes adding things to push the rating up purely to push the rating up can make an experience uncomfortable or unenjoyable. However with BG3 it seems like it is an intended part of the art, Mindflayers being a big reason because anything with them is meant to be concerning at the best with mind control and enslavement, and overwhelmingly gruesome at birthing out of people and intellect devourers puppeting corpses. The sex also seems purposeful for the characters presented, none of them seem chaste and sex is a common instinct, especially in situations like the ones these characters are in. The only issue with sex is that for a player it may be a little too forefront and so it would generally be better for there to be some more direct flirting on the part of the player before every character wants a piece of them.
I'd agree with you IF it felt like the mature elements were forced, but to me they don't, they feel like a part of the intended experience. So I think the game should be comfortable with a M rating.

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Wow, this thread has covered a lot of territory, while still managing to be respectful (so far)! If nothing else, it's good that we ARE having this discussion. smile

This is getting too big to put in forum quotations so I'll just say:

GM4Him, you've clearly put a lot of thought into your response, and I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I have to agree with Dez here. Most people (adults) can tell fantasy from reality, and keep the two apart. In fact my husband and I had an interesting discussion about this last night (after I showed him this thread). I certainly don't get in his way or question his RPG romances every time he plays a game, and he doesn't question mine, because we love each other in the real world and some attractive pixels in a fictional story are no threat to our actual real life relationship. Neither is porn, sexy fan fiction or anything else. If THOSE are the issues causing unrealistic expectations in a relationship in someone's real life, that is not an issue of this game, or the media as a whole, that is an issue for those (hypothetical) people. Also, M/R/etc ratings exist for a reason.

Larian/BG3 is not adding sex scenes to tempt people away from their spouses, they are part of the game because they are part of the story for these particular characters, and part of human life experience, generally speaking. Relationships in video games are not like real life, and I don't think most people expect them to be! They are an escape from reality - like reading a good book, a good game's story like this one draws you in, and allows you to experience/imagine that story and see it through your character's eyes. But it's important to remember that it's just a character, just a fictional story.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
@RagnarokCzD

What I am referring to by, "Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with," is that sex is like a drug. It is very addictive. It is one of the most powerful drives that a person can have. What you allow into your mind affects you long-term. It is imprinted down deep in your subconscious mind. When you see images of people having sex on TV or in movies or video games or whatever, those images become implanted into your brain. The experiences the characters have in video games and TV and movies and such are pure fantasy, and that pure fantasy becomes people's ideals for romance and sex; ideals others can't live up to.

Several negative things can occur as a result:

1. If you are married or in an relationship, or even if in the future you are in a relationship, you may develop certain expectations, without even realizing it, for your significant other that they don't like and/or that they aren't able to fulfill. Because what you have ingrained into your brain is something unrealistic, it can harm your real experiences. CAN, mind you. It doesn't necessarily mean that it does or will for everyone. Either way, by putting this stuff into your head, you can develop unhealthy behaviors and attitudes towards your significant other. Basically, you put the fantasy on a pedestal that no one can really attain to because this is the kind of thing that excited you in the stuff you've been watching. So, you may even wind up ruining your relationship with your significant other because he/she is not living up to your fantasy expectations. Case in point, some women starve themselves because they are trying to mold themselves into some unrealistic video game woman's image just so they can feel more attractive to men. That's not healthy.

2. Your spouse/significant other may not like the fact that you are watching or playing those kinds of things. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Even if they say they do, they may not truly be okay with it. Some will say they are okay with it, even if they are not, because they are trying to make you happy. But deep down inside, they probably resent it. Why? Because they may feel that you have to fantasize about some video game character or whatever in order to do anything with them. They don't excite you enough, so you need some sort of pixels all put together to form the image of people having sex in order to get excited enough to do something with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone is that way. Some may truly be perfectly fine with it. However, I think it might surprise you to find out how many are not okay with it.

3. Some can't control their sexual appetites. The more this stuff is readily accessible to them, the easier it is for them to consume it. But, like many addictions, the more they consume it, the more they need it and the bigger the fix that they need. This CAN, not always, but CAN lead to individuals doing things they shouldn't do; aka sexual crimes. Again, this is not saying that it DOES lead to it. I am just saying it CAN help it along and assist in nudging some people down that path.

Therefore, putting this stuff in games and TV and so forth is playing with fire. Although there are many who can handle it and not do something stupid, there are many who can't. You feed the problem for those who can't handle it, and therefore potentially harm them further and those in their lives.

This world has enough problems with relationships and marriages and divorces and sexual crimes. So, why are we doing things that could potentially make the situation worse as opposed to better?

That is why I don't like sex in games and such. I think it does more harm than good, and frankly, I don't need it. I like romance in games because I think it's sweet and fun and so forth, and it adds a level of emotional connection, but I prefer when games and such "fade to black." You know what happened. You don't need to show me the details. Let the characters have their privacy. Let them have their intimate moment without you watching. lol. As if pixels have intimate moments and need privacy. smile

Anyway, all that aside. If they got rid of sex and maybe toned down a bit on the violence and gore, they could make this a Teen game. THAT was actually my overall point. Wouldn't they sell more games by making it more available to a wider audience? Parents who don't like their kids playing games with Sex and Gore might allow them to play BG3 if they got rid of the sex scenes and some of the graphic violence. I honestly am not bothered by the violence level, but whatever. The point is that if they tamed down these things, which aren't really necessary to the story, they could lower the Mature Rating to Teen and thus open the game up to more players. Many parents these days are even willing to let their littlest ones play Teen games if they don't have a lot of swearing and graphic violence and especially sex. So although I'm sure a lot of people on this thread love this stuff, I was thinking Larian could actually get more sales if they tone it down a bit to broaden the audience. I'm not saying tone it town a ton. I'm just saying a bit. It honestly doesn't take much these days to go from Mature to Teen.

Fair points @ GM4Him
As a matter of fact I’m still officially Catholic, I never quit the church officially, despite havening to pay some minor church taxes and not going to church, except for Christmas once a year. So I know Catholic sexual morale very well. Despite being still a member, I never followed these strict rules, which I don’t consider to be up to date. I grew up in a family which is nominally Catholic, but very liberal – they don’t take faith that serious. I had sex before marriage, I used condoms and yeah I had many sexual relationships just for fun during my life so far. My current (long-term) girlfriend is a nominally Lutheran woman, who is pretty much agnostic, such as myself. Religion doesn't play any role in our relationship, we just love each other.
I’m a sinner, I confess, but I don’t regret it. You can only regret, what you didn’t do anyway, because for everything you did, there were specific reasons in that period of life. I think modern times changed our lives a lot, there is advanced science and a lot of this contradicts the preaching of the church, especially the bible. Still Christian faith (Catholic & Lutheran) belongs to my culture, which is German, and I don’t want it to disappear completely. Also the architecture of the many medieval gothic cathedrals in Germany shall be preserved for the generations to come, because those buildings are marvelous and also serve an educational purpose. Only therefore I gladly pay my church taxes. Cathedrals cost a huge sum to maintain and this isn't financed by the German state, but church taxes, despite being someone who has many doubts about faith in general. And once I die, I prefer having a Catholic priest say a few words about me in front of my family and children, instead of a profane funeral for agnostics. So far for my personal stance on religion, which is more a cultural thing for me.

Anyway you’ve got a few points here, which I’ll second. The internet and the availability of porn at every corner actually isn’t healthy in general. People might develop strange tastes because of that and the number of addicts to online-porn grow. It can even destroy your sex life, because you might expect from your girlfriend to perform like a porn-star during sex, which is not realistic and eventually you might not be able to enjoy normal sex any more, which should be a beautiful thing between two individuals. I’m not against porn in general, but people should be aware of the fact that it harms them eventually on a psychological level, if they overdo.
In games we are talking about sexual acts, which can be described as soft-core, same applies to most movies. I’m perfectly d’accord with those. I don’t consider these to be harmful in any way, unlike the extensive consume of porn. Most people enjoy these fictions with a little bit of erotic content in it.

Concerning crime or rape that’s a sociological problem. The specific socialization of a person might lead to such a behavior. This has got nothing to do with sex being displayed in games or movies.
I would never do such a thing, I wouldn’t even be capable to enjoy it, if I had to force someone to have sex with me. After all I enjoy it even more if she wants me as much as I want her - mutual passion! A rapist has got a significant mental illness, which has got nothing to do with popular culture. Although I seriously doubt, that many of those actually can be therapized as repeat offender statistics show. Lock them away for good!

Now for beauty ideals, these weren’t created out of thin air and exist for both genders. Therefore I don’t have a problem with games or movies mainly showing attractive role models for both genders. Beauty ideals may be unfair, because they are genetically mostly, but still there is an evolutionary reason for those like phenotypical signs of fertility for women and being able to protect and to provide for the offspring for males (stone age logic, which still has got a meaning even today). Anyway concerning modern ideals, not everyone wants a flat-chested bulimia catwalk model with matchstick legs to be his girlfriend, who for the overhwelming part of human history wouldn't be considered to be attractive at all. Personally I actually prefer some curves at the right spots, without her being overweight and I very much prefer blondes, but that's just me. And not every woman wants Arnold Schwarzenegger as husband, too.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I absolutely don’t think, that Larian should appease prude American parents, I’m sorry. It will attract more players worldwide, if some soft display of nudity and sexual acts are shown in the game. I fear that Wizards of the Coast (Washington, USA) might have a bad influence on Larian (Belgium, Europe). I hope they will handle the display of sexuality more like CD Projekt Red did with Witcher 3, which still had a M ESRB rating in the US afaik. In Germany by the way Witcher 3 had an A ESRB rating (USK 18 is the German equivalent, which means only for adults), not because of the sex, but because of the explicit gore/violence. Just saying, how mentalities tend to be different across the globe.

Last edited by Ragnarök; 06/05/21 03:26 AM.
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