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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.

100% agree! He's perfect just the way he is!
I don't even understand the mods that exist to make him look younger somehow. He's not a teenager, he's got that perfect ageless quality about him.

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I do wonder if this will be considered. LOTR movies imprinted a new elf image in people's minds. I mean, even elves in Tolkien's world were not supposed to be humans with pointed ears, but after the movies...

I bet Larian didn't even give it much thought. The general public now views elves like this, and it is easier to implement, so...

I say this because until reading this and other posts about elves and drow, I didn't even think about it. I remember seeing the first guy elf model and even thinking, "Ah. I can be Legolas."

Also, thinking back to other video games and such for D&D, I don't think there is much of a difference in those games either between humans and elves.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do something about this. Im just saying that for most people, it will probably go unnoticed. In fact, many non-D&D players might even freak out if elves don't look like humans with pointy ears. You know. "What the crap! Why do all elves look so weird? I wanted to make an elf character who looks like Legolas, not something closer to a Christmas elf."

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I'll second the op, that I consider the male elf faces to be too squarish in BG3. Actually I think the male half elven faces look more elven to me, than the pure elven faces. Astarion is fine, being an elven vampire spawn and not looking like a teengaer, which wouldn't fit. I'm talking about the male elven faces the character creation screen offers, which for me are too squarish.

Last edited by Ragnarök; 07/05/21 09:23 AM.
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Yeah I definitely agree - I grew up with Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" book, and although the movies weren't my first introduction to fantasy, for a lot of people they were - and that's generally the most popular image of elf-kind that has stuck with people in general. Not to mention Tolkien himself changed the broader perception of elves from "small pixie-like fairy trickster creatures" as in English folklore, to "beautiful, elegant humanoid beings with pointy ears" in the first place.

I see where the die-hard DnD players with particular mental images are coming from, but it's most likely that most players of BG3 come from a generic fantasy/RPG background rather than a DnD-specific background? (I could be wrong!) So it makes sense to appeal to the broader audience that will go "oh, pretty person with pointy ears - ok that's an elf" as opposed to "WTF is that weird fairy/pixie thing?"

That said, there is still room to refine the elven features for player characters. Just add some new face options that are more slender and elegant.

Just leave the elf NPCs alone! laugh they're already awesome.

(Sorry if half of what i said has already been discussed, I'm coming in very late into this thread and haven't read the whole thing.)

Last edited by Alexandrite; 07/05/21 09:36 AM.
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Im a little confused why Lord of the Rings should be even relevant here ...
Its completely different setting, in completely different universe, from completely different autor, and with completely different rules. O_o

I mean, dont get me wrong, i know that LotR was kinda iconic Movie for our generation ...
But in game industry, i would dare to say Major fantasy settings are Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls ...
Warcraft is probably kinda too cartonish to be concidered, yet since nobody claimed that "proper elf should have half meter long ears" ... people seem to understand that different settings means different visuals. wink
In Elder Scrolls tho, especialy Skyrim ... elves actualy do have triangle shaped faces, and i never heard about anyone who would have problem with that. O_o


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Larian had no problem making their elves look very un-Tolkienish in their previous game.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im a little confused why Lord of the Rings should be even relevant here ...
Its completely different setting, in completely different universe, from completely different autor, and with completely different rules. O_o

I mean, dont get me wrong, i know that LotR was kinda iconic Movie for our generation ...
But in game industry, i would dare to say Major fantasy settings are Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls ...
Warcraft is probably kinda too cartonish to be concidered, yet since nobody claimed that "proper elf should have half meter long ears" ... people seem to understand that different settings means different visuals. wink
In Elder Scrolls tho, especialy Skyrim ... elves actualy do have triangle shaped faces, and i never heard about anyone who would have problem with that. O_o

My point, RagnarokCzD, was that people are used to seeing elves as pointy-eared humans because of the LOTR movies and other media renditions of elves where they are humans with pointy ears. That's all. Most of what they have seen of elves is that image.

The other point I was making by calling out LOTR is that Tolkien's original concept for elves was nothing like humans with pointed ears. His original descriptions were quite different. They were more fairy-like. So the movie and other media's renditions of elves is not even true to Tolkien, who was somewhat of the original basis for elves in D&D.

Anyway, humans with pointy ears is what a lot of people think of, now, when it comes to elves, and that was my point. They don't standardly think of elves as described in D&D, and even a lot of D&D art doesn't depict elves as something different from humans with pointy ears. So, I imagine it didn't even cross Larian's minds. Even if it did, they were probably thinking that anything but human with pointy ears for elves would seem weird to the general audience.

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.

100% agree! He's perfect just the way he is!
I don't even understand the mods that exist to make him look younger somehow. He's not a teenager, he's got that perfect ageless quality about him.


He has perfect visual age, after all, his voice actor is a grown man for a reason. I also do not know why some ppl are trying make him look younger, idk maybe they like teenagers or adult young. But here they are discussing something quite different, if such corrections affect characters, then literally structure of his face will change.



Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Larian had no problem making their elves look very un-Tolkienish in their previous game.

But it wasn't about faces, their faces looked pretty normal, but their bodies were terrifying.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
My point, RagnarokCzD, was that people are used to seeing elves as pointy-eared humans because of the LOTR movies and other media renditions of elves where they are humans with pointy ears. That's all. Most of what they have seen of elves is that image.
Yup ... and my point was that you cannot mix Games and Movies, since no actor would be so dedicated to his work, to willingly undergo plastic surgery to change the shape of bones, cartilage and rotation of the eyes. laugh
Therefore > games should be measure for games, and movies should be measure for movies. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
The other point I was making by calling out LOTR is that Tolkien's original concept for elves was nothing like humans with pointed ears. His original descriptions were quite different. They were more fairy-like. So the movie and other media's renditions of elves is not even true to Tolkien, who was somewhat of the original basis for elves in D&D.
Same reason as abowe ...
Plus its cheaper that way. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, humans with pointy ears is what a lot of people think of, now, when it comes to elves, and that was my point. They don't standardly think of elves as described in D&D, and even a lot of D&D art doesn't depict elves as something different from humans with pointy ears. So, I imagine it didn't even cross Larian's minds. Even if it did, they were probably thinking that anything but human with pointy ears for elves would seem weird to the general audience.
Well ... you say "lot of people" ... i would say that 15 pages of this topic sugest otherwise. laugh
Same as allready mentioned games as Warcraft, the Elder Scrolls, Warhammer, Dragon Age, Divinity: Original Sin 2, and certainly not least Baldurs Gate 1 + 2. laugh

But anyway i honestly dont even care if they did, or didnt think about it ...
What i would like to know, is if there even is any chance that now, when it was mentioned ... and looking at those 15 pages, i would dare to say supported by conciderable amount of players ... if it will be implemented.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 07/05/21 04:11 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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There are like 20,000 posts on Steam. I have no idea how many other threads on other sites. 15 pages of the same people going back and forth on a single thread doesn't really speak to a huge number of players. My entire point was just that people outside of fantasy fans would be more familiar with the LOTR movie experience. Not saying it's the correct concept. Just saying that it makes sense that Larian may have implemented humans with pointy ears without thought simply because of this perception.

That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently.

Halflings are supposed to be, according to https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling, "small in comparison with the members of most other races, standing somewhere from 2′8″‒3′4″ (81‒100 cm) tall and weighing on average between 30‒35 lb (14‒16 kg). In many ways, halflings resembled small humans and usually had the same proportions as the typical human adult. Most halflings had dark hair and eyes, regardless of their skin complexion which, although commonly ruddy in hue had a similar range to humans. Nearly all male halflings were incapable of growing true beards, though many had long sideburns. Halfling hairstyles were often complex, with strands woven together or braided. Although halflings had an affinity for collecting valuables, they did not prefer to wear these on their person, instead preferring more comfortable clothing."

This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

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Then you should read this topic ... from the beginning.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

You can't expect the wiki to give you all of the information of a race that you could possibly need. Like someone else said, you should read the topic from the beggining, I've made a compilation with canon and handbook material, and if it isn't clear, I can make an even more complete one.

Otherwise, you can do some research of your own by reading from the source manuals instead of the wiki smile

Last edited by Goldberry; 07/05/21 04:42 PM.
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Sorry. Perhaps that came across wrong. I should have said, "According to this particular Forgotten Realms Wiki site, this is what elves should look like. I don't see anything in there that says they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. So it depends on where you look. If Larian just pulled up this website, for example, they would think that elves should just be slender and athletic and have pointy ears...oh, and be beautiful and handsome."

In other words, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing against your points. Like I said, "I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from."

ALL I was trying to say is that I hadn't even thought about it until reading this thread because I'm just so used to seeing humans with pointy ears as elves thanks to LOTR and other media representations of elves. I have become so used to elves being depicted this way that it didn't even register in my brain that it was different. Same with dwarven females, really. I just didn't even think about how in D&D, dwarves should look like:

"Dwarven males were a bit taller and heavier than their female counterparts.[10] Like humans, dwarves had a wide variety of skin, eye, and hair colors, typically pale among shield dwarves and deeply tanned or brown amongst gold dwarves. Hazel eyes were common throughout the race, with blue eyes more common amongst shield dwarves and brown or green eyes found amongst the gold dwarves.[9] Male dwarves were often bald and grew thick facial hair, which was sometimes used to display social status. Unusually for humanoids, both sexes naturally grew ample facial hair,[11] though the majority of shield dwarf females shaved their beards off.[12] This hair was often dark in hue, though among shield dwarves blond or red hair was just as common. Gold dwarves took the care of facial hair to an extreme, carefully oiling and grooming it,[9] with some adding perfume and ornamentations.[11]"

So, again, not trying to say they shouldn't fix the models. If anything, they should fix them all. Height, weight, build, facial hair, pointed ears, not pointed ears, or whatever, they should all fit the true D&D/ Forgotten Realms descriptions. If they want a few humanish looking variants for elves to make LOTR fans more comfortable, I'm sure there are some elves that would fit that mold, but for the most part they probably should go with the true D&D build so that it meets the true standards of the world they are trying to recreate.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
There are like 20,000 posts on Steam. I have no idea how many other threads on other sites. 15 pages of the same people going back and forth on a single thread doesn't really speak to a huge number of players. My entire point was just that people outside of fantasy fans would be more familiar with the LOTR movie experience. Not saying it's the correct concept. Just saying that it makes sense that Larian may have implemented humans with pointy ears without thought simply because of this perception.

That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently.

Halflings are supposed to be, according to https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling, "small in comparison with the members of most other races, standing somewhere from 2′8″‒3′4″ (81‒100 cm) tall and weighing on average between 30‒35 lb (14‒16 kg). In many ways, halflings resembled small humans and usually had the same proportions as the typical human adult. Most halflings had dark hair and eyes, regardless of their skin complexion which, although commonly ruddy in hue had a similar range to humans. Nearly all male halflings were incapable of growing true beards, though many had long sideburns. Halfling hairstyles were often complex, with strands woven together or braided. Although halflings had an affinity for collecting valuables, they did not prefer to wear these on their person, instead preferring more comfortable clothing."

This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

Comparing a film where actual families can sit down and watch a movie with there kids vs a video game is rubbish. You want to know what the common elf people generally would think of? It would be this:



World of Warcraft was a major critical and commercial success upon its original release in 2004 and quickly became the most popular MMORPG of all-time, reaching a peak of 12 million subscribers in 2010.[4] The game had over one hundred million registered accounts by 2014[5] and by 2017, had grossed over $9.23 billion in revenue, making it one of the highest-grossing video game franchises of all time. The game has been cited by gaming journalists as the greatest MMORPG of all-time and one of the greatest video games of all time and has also been noted for its long lifespan, continuing to receive developer support and expansion packs over 15 years since its initial release.
Third paragraph down, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft

Halfling thread just encase anyone is interested

Description for each edition of d&d changes, for example Eladrin:
4e
[Linked Image from images1.wikia.nocookie.net]
5e
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

All elves originated from the Feywild, Eladrin stayed while Wood/Wild (Green elves) left along with drow (brown elves? Lolth did something and brown elves turned purple/blue/black, not related to eye color, and no im not going to look this rubbish up). Long term exposure to material plane changed how they look but generally still look like stupid elves with pointy ears and triangle shaped faces. 3.5 has diagram of it, someone posted the pic on this thread. Go through the pages of this thread and look at the pictures.

ELVES ARE NOT HUMANS, THEY ALL COME FROM FEYWILD

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@fallenj

Did you read my last post. I'm not saying you're wrong or the others. I agree. It would be cool if they updated all the models.

I even said, "That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently."

My whole point about bringing LOTR into it was that I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I didn't even think about what elves and drow are supposed to look like because I'm used to seeing elves as pointy eared humans. That's it. Not saying they should remain that way. Just saying that it might throw some people off if they don't see pointy eared humans.

Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
@fallenj

Did you read my last post. I'm not saying you're wrong or the others. I agree. It would be cool if they updated all the models.

I even said, "That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently."

My whole point about bringing LOTR into it was that I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I didn't even think about what elves and drow are supposed to look like because I'm used to seeing elves as pointy eared humans. That's it. Not saying they should remain that way. Just saying that it might throw some people off if they don't see pointy eared humans.

Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.

ya you was talking in general of what you think the population see's how elves look, I replied with the World of Warcraft section since it's been around longer and is one of the top games with elves. When I see elves they have a distinct look generally long faces triangle shaped with pointy ears.

searched bing for elves, got christmas elves that more so look like gnomes...

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I think people typically think of the elf they were first exposed to in a meaningful way when told to think of an elf, so when I think of elf I actually think of elves from Elder Scrolls (Morrowind and Oblivion), with the Bosmer, Altmer, and Dunmer. Especially Dunmer and them calling me an outlander constantly...

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Last edited by GM4Him; 08/05/21 04:56 AM.
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The elves are very pretty in BG III (as are all the character models), but I find them pretty indistinguishable from humans and half elves.. If you lined up Shadowheart and Halsin and told me to pick out the half elf, honestly I'd probably pick Halsin. I think they might have used face scans for the models, which would explain a lot-there really aren't a lot of IRL people I can think of who have the extreme triangular/heart shaped faces and large, inward tilted eyes characteristic of earlier editions depictions of elves.

I wonder what Larion will do if/when they bring back any of the elven companions from the previous two games-how accurate they want to make them to their character portraits. I mean, Aerie would look a bit like an alien even if you put her next to one of the more cheekbone-y elves in BGIII like Kahga,

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.
Just for the record ...
Google (as well as others searching paiges) uses your cookies to adjust searching on internet and gives you result, that will probably be "most relevant for you" ...
So in theory, if you and i both "type elves" in google, we bot get different pictures. wink

//edit:
Anyway ... even if you find kazzilion pictures of round shaped face elves, that dont mean they should have rounded face ... it only means that kazzilion autors are drawing them wrong. laugh
Like many authors quite commonly ignores the differences between Wyverna and the Dragon in fantasy. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/05/21 09:21 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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