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@GM4Him
WTF are you talking about man, I just said I prefer it as TB, are you even reading my comment before trying to counter it?? I mean I literally was agreeing with you.

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I wasn't talking to you, Pandemonica. Sorry. Was talking to others who are still fighting for RTWP and getting mad about not having it.

Weird. Last I looked, others had responded after you. Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I wasn't talking to you, Pandemonica. Sorry. Was talking to others above you who are still fighting for RTWP and getting mad about not having it.
Oh ok, you were right under my comment, so I just thought you were replying to me. No worries.

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Its so weird. There were likely 3 others or something after you and that other post. They're gone. 😳

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Sven did an interview like a month ago and said they had zero intentions at this time of making the game real time with pause dispite that it may upset some people it was not in the plans to do so currently.

Does that mean they wont patch it down the road with a dlc to have it as an option no but there is zero intention to have it included with base game so the debate is more or less answered.

After full release it may come up as a subject much like with pathfinder kingmaker to allow an optional download once the main content as an option to real time with pause but dont be suprised if it requires an I9 with 32 gigs of ram+ or something similar to run it in real time with pause the mechanics and requirements it handle those actions are completely different than the mechanics to run this WOTR chews up far more resources on my machine than this does and thats not even running the real time with pause feature on it. Just by it being there it chews up 4x the resources balders gate 3 does. On similar settings.

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Всем добра)) Прошу прощения за то, что пишу на русском, к сожалению я не знаю английский настолько хорошо, чтобы корректно изложить все свои мысли, касательно столь сложного и важного вопроса.

С авто-паузой в BG2 мы тратили на убийство 10 гоблинов один фаерболл и 5 секунд реального времени. В BG3 в пошаговом режиме на убийство 10 гоблинов мы тратим 50 минут реального времени и у нас нет фаерболла... Если игра предназначена для максимально не широкой аудитории, для минимального охвата игроков, и исключительно фанатов DOS и DOS2, то пошаговая боевая система лучший выбор. Если игра для массового потребления, для фанатов BG2, NWN2, DAO, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment и многих других игр, то пошаговая боевая система не подходит.
Я понимаю, что менять боёвку не станут скорее из принципа, потому что "я художник - я так вижу". Однако, вопрос в том, кто захочет в это играть через 5 лет или через 10 лет? В BG2 играют спустя 20 лет. И хвалят. Для кого эта игра? Я фанатка BG2, в BG1 я играла еще в 1998 году, и BG3, в том виде в котором она сейчас, точно не для меня. Мне потребовалось 112!!! часов чтобы пройти ранний доступ. 112 часов потраченных ни на что, из-за невероятно длинных боёв. 112 часов раздражения, апатии и полного отторжения к пошаговой боевой системе. Пошаговая боевая система, на мой взгляд как фанатки старой серии игр, совершенно не подходит для сюжетных ролевых игр. Я не хочу играть в тактику, я хочу играть в ролевую игру. Для тактики есть Герои Меча и Магии 3, но даже там бои значительно короче.
Какой выход вижу я - максимально упростить бои для сюжетного режима. Вплоть до кнопки - убить всех врагов. Я понимаю, что изменить пошаговый режим скорее всего не возможно, он вшит в движок, тогда единственной альтернативой является делать крит шанс 100%, попадания 100% и урезать здоровье врагов до адекватного минимума.

Когда я купила ранний доступ BG3, я рассчитывала в первую очередь на богатые диалоги, увлекательный сюжет, интересных спутников, сложные ситуации с моральным выбором, записки и книги о состоянии мира и его особенности, общения между моими спутниками и интересные истории про них, так чтобы мне хотелось сопереживать. Я хотела эмоции.

Когда я стала играть в BG3 я получила самую не дружелюбную боевую систему, бои, долгие бои, много боёв, бои с крыши, бои со взрывами бочек, бои с метанием предметов, бои с врагами которые убивают тебя с 1 раза просто потому что они выше по уровню и тебе никак и нигде невозможно прокачаться выше, бои с толпой врагов, бои ради боёв, немножко сюжета и чуть-чуть диалогов которые привязаны к точкам на карте и не работают если пропустить эту точку независимо от одобрения.

В BG2 я очень ярко запомнила один из первых квестов, когда мы попадали в район моста в Аткатле. На входе нас останавливал капитан городской стражи и предупреждал, говоря что в этом районе сейчас опасно и кто-то сдирает заживо кожу с нищих. Мы могли согласиться помочь, могли пройти мимо, могли даже убить капитана, нас никто не ограничивал. Могли спросить "а что известно?" и нам прямо говорили где можно начать искать. Но прежде, чем мы давали ответ, каждый из наших спутников говорил своё мнение и спорил со спутником чьё мнение отличалось. Мы шли дальше, в сторону таверны, и нам открывалась жуткая картина - толпа зевак стояла вокруг освежёванных человеческих трупов, и из их диалогов мы узнавали, кто именно мог видеть убийцу и кто выжил прошлой ночью. Наши спутники снова высказываются по этому вопросу. Каждый из которых склоняет нас к заняться/не заняться этим квестом. Это важный момент, важно чтобы игрок понимал куда ему идти, чтобы была конкретная понятная цель. Узнав, что выжил нищий Рампа и куртизанка Роза у нас появлялось несколько вариантов решения. Один из них был опросить свидетелей и с этим опросом связаны любопытные дополнительные квесты. Например Роза скажет, что от убийцы пахло так же как от её клиентов которые страдают импотенцией, но когда мы принесем три вещи с похожим запахом, она узнает запах коры дуба, которую используют для обработки кожи. Так же у нищего мы можем получить его "сокровище" - кусочек экзотической кожи слона которую он нашел на месте происшествия. Как только мы собираем улики, наши спутники высказывают своё мнение о том, кто это мог быть и как поступить. Из всего того, что мы узнали, мы направляемся к местному кожевнику Реджику и путем диалогов можем понять, что он и есть убийца. Или мы можем сообщить о нём капитану стражи передав улики, но тогда для капитана всё окончится трагедией. Разоблаченный Реджек попытается сбежать, преследуя его мы попадаем в страшную комнату, про которую опять высказываются наши спутники. И в этой комнате среди трупов мы находим незавершенный доспех из человеческой кожи, а так же записку загадку о неком связном, чьё имя мы должны угадать и назвать когда купим у него определенную книгу, название которой указано в записке жирным шрифтом, и ждать он нас будет в определенном месте которое так же указано, а именно в Холмах. И дальше этот квест разветвляется, мы можем закончить доспех, можем узнать больше о том, кто такой Реджек и в конце концов убить его и отголоски этого квеста нас встретят почти под конец игры. Атмосферный и мрачный квест, при этом он максимально понятный и увлекательно подан. Но главный вопрос - что сподвигло меня заняться этим квестом? Спутники и жуткий диалог между жителями города. Их диалоги и диалоги окружающих создают ту самую атмосферу, утягивая в сюжет. Захотела бы я что-то искать, бродить без цели ища сама не знаю что? Нет. Это скучно. Игра меня должна развлекать, а не я игру. Без реакций со стороны спутников и окружения, у меня нет мотивации делать что-то. Без понимания зачем мне это нужно, мне тоже ничего не хочется делать. То что никак не привлекает к себе внимание и не дает ответа на вопрос - зачем это нужно? совершенно никак не интересно. Если по тропинке бегает заяц, это просто заяц у меня нет мотивации думать что это особенный заяц, более того если заяц сам не знает что ему нужно и где это искать, но он чего-то хочет, я темболее не знаю и знать не хочу где это что-то может быть. Заяц должен меня заинтересовать, показать что он особенный, важный и рассказать что именно ему нужно, вот тогда я оцениваю важность и решаю интересно это или нет.

Большое спасибо если прочитаете! Надеюсь, что на релизе все игроки будут довольны игрой и придет много новых игроков которые еще не знакомы с Baldurs Gate


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@Shyshyn4ik

I finally got your post translated. I think the main issue you are having with the gameplay is what we are all struggling with. Battles take a long time for several reasons.

1. The Ai is slow. They have enemies basically thinking too much. This makes it so they aren't so stupid, but there is too much lag and they still are stupid. If they were like other turn based games, they'd be faster and turns would flow smoother.

2. They allow each character too many crazy options. Combat should be simpler. Move, Attack and maybe Bonus Action. Next character. Same. Next. Same. The only reason it should move slowly is if you, the player, are taking your time deciding something. The more they get away from genuine D&D 5e rules, the more the AI has to think about different choices it has when moving enemies. Try Solasta. It uses turn based with 5e rules accurately, and the combat is much smoother.

3. UI is messy, so hard to find things on your turn.

There's more, but bottom line it is slow right now. It is Early Access, so Im hoping by full release the turn based system is cleaned up and faster. Dialogues and stuff too. Its all pretty messy right now.

Last edited by GM4Him; 07/05/21 02:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. The Ai is slow. They have enemies basically thinking too much. This makes it so they aren't so stupid, but there is too much lag and they still are stupid. If they were like other turn based games, they'd be faster and turns would flow smoother.

2. They allow each character too many crazy options. Combat should be simpler. Move, Attack and maybe Bonus Action. Next character. Same. Next. Same. The only reason it should move slowly is if you, the player, are taking your time deciding something. The more they get away from genuine D&D 5e rules, the more the AI has to think about different choices it has when moving enemies. Try Solasta. It uses turn based with 5e rules accurately, and the combat is much smoother.

3. UI is messy, so hard to find things on your turn.

There's more, but bottom line it is slow right now. It is Early Access, so Im hoping by full release the turn based system is cleaned up and faster. Dialogues and stuff too. Its all pretty messy right now.

Hi! I played Solasta, DOS games and BG3 EA and I have some programming and game design experience, not an expert though, but anyway my 2 cents on the topic:

Currently combat is indeed slow in BG3.

Main reason is indeed the AI thinking too much, however so far based on my experience with early versions of turn based games (including DOS EA), this is almost always the case until the very late phase of development so im pretty confident that this will change a lot. When devs tweak enemy behaviours, add new spells/actions etc the AI needs a rework and this usually cause bugs/lags until they do a code clean up. The trick is that its more effective and less time consuming to do the cleanup of the code at a later phase, then patching it every time something changes (that im saying based on experience haha). Its still a good thing to highlight as feedback though, as it definitely something needs to be worked on before game goes into full release.

The UI is also something im fairly confident will turn around until the full release, Larian likes iterations, so fingers crossed they can fix the current problems with it. Solasta is a great example, playing the game feels very smooth - mostly because if the intuitive and dynamic UI - compared to BG3. Also things like skills/abilities that needs double-clicking for no reason, or clicks not recognized at some times should go away with full release. There are some actions which doesn't even necessary would need an icon on the UI (looking at you jumping - which could be part of movement - and sneak attack), but we will see which direction they will take with these.

My bigger concern is combat pace and mechanics, I dont want to list here all common concerns because others already did, but i agree that the current combat design kind of forces the player to try generic bonus actions with all party members in all rounds, which kinds of stealing the show from the unique actions and make the player to go for similar tactics for all battles and also, staying on topic this makes the battles much longer and tedious as well. I remember Swen said in a podcast that they tried out a lot of different variations of the action economy, multiple actions per turn (felt too allowing), original dnd5e economy (felt too limiting), he even mentioned at a certain point Bonus action was not even a thing. They went with the current system as a compromise (a tweaked bonus action system), im not sure if they counted in how much this can slow down combat and take away from tactical aspect of the game (especially long term). Im not against freedom of choices in combat (i do like that Larian likes to try out different, even radical things because these can turn out very well also) but the action economy need to be carefully balanced (and to be honest, at this point it seems to me raw dnd 5e rules did this balance better, as you can feel from Solasta combat gameplay) so its not turning to be repetitive for such a long game. I dont mind if here and there unique use of these general bonus actions reward the player but they should not be so easy to use and cheese fights with in order to keep them interesting. Im in the camp who is waiting for an alternative, official dnd game mode for this very reason.

Eventually, if they improve things like we mention here, i think combat won't feel slow and less repetitive, the game already has superb-looking but at the same time pretty fast animations (much more faster than Solasta, where i feel animations are too slow in general), which really improves the experience.

All in all, they say a lot that EA is for testing how satisfied people are with current features/mechanics and not for bugfixes, so hopefully beyond fixing AI and UI issues they will listen and provide some alternative options for combat rules.
Fingers crossed.

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If DM mode gets introduced won't that speed up combat since that AI will get replaced by a presumably much faster human? Or at least one of the things a good DM will be judged by is how fast they can run combat turns.

I think DM mode would be more difficult with real time with pause. Not a fan of that mode, it seems super clunky. For Multiplayer its a non-starter.


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I much prefer real time with pause, but turn based is okay too, I guess.


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I don't see RT/w Pause as being multiplayer friendly, in fact it's 100% not at all, especially if you have 4 players and a DM. You are consigning certain players to simply missing turns. Then it would be impossible to manage things from a DM perspective.

No, Larian is doing the right thing here. The multiplayer game is the real prize from BG3, done right and its has enormous potential that goes much further than the single player story.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
The multiplayer game is the real prize from BG3, done right and its has enormous potential that goes much further than the single player story.
Then they should be honest and say so, that BG3 is a multiplayer game first and foremost and single player is secondary.

Multiplayer is trash. It is so good to see so many major RPG studios increasingly walking away from multiplayer and returning to single player only RPGs.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
The multiplayer game is the real prize from BG3, done right and its has enormous potential that goes much further than the single player story.
Then they should be honest and say so, that BG3 is a multiplayer game first and foremost and single player is secondary.

Multiplayer is trash. It is so good to see so many major RPG studios increasingly walking away from multiplayer and returning to single player only RPGs.

Have you played the multiplayer version with other people? They have not implemented the DM mode yet but its fairly robust.

If you don't have any friends that play you can use the Larian discord to find groups.

https://discord.gg/WkwfWmdx


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Have you played the multiplayer version with other people? They have not implemented the DM mode yet but its fairly robust.
I felt that the multiplayer in BG3 still needed a lot of improvements. Currently it feels like you're tagging along a single-player's journey.

Particularly, dialogues need to be made more inclusive and easier to follow. When I played, one player participates and the others could basically only watch. And the game doesn't do a good enough job of showing you which dialogue option is chosen by the player, making the conversations hard to follow (unless the active player verbally narrates their decision or hovers over their selection for multiple seconds before clicking it).
Idk if they've changed ^ since I played; if so, great!

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Have you played the multiplayer version with other people? They have not implemented the DM mode yet but its fairly robust.
I felt that the multiplayer in BG3 still needed a lot of improvements. Currently it feels like you're tagging along a single-player's journey.

Particularly, dialogues need to be made more inclusive and easier to follow. When I played, one player participates and the others could basically only watch. And the game doesn't do a good enough job of showing you which dialogue option is chosen by the player, making the conversations hard to follow (unless the active player verbally narrates their decision or hovers over their selection for multiple seconds before clicking it).
Idk if they've changed ^ since I played; if so, great!


It does allow you to listen in and vote on which way you want the person talking to go with the convo (and it shows your vote), but ultimately whoever initiated the conversation has control of the response. There are interparty dialogues where everyone has to vote ona response to move forward but you see how frustrating those are so I am actually SUPER glad they didn't implement that with regular NPC conversations or it would be really clunky. I don't think its too much to ask to tell your team in discord which way you want to handle things though. There are groups that insist on that and lots of roleplaying.


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Originally Posted by acatlas
Sven did an interview like a month ago and said they had zero intentions at this time of making the game real time with pause dispite that it may upset some people it was not in the plans to do so currently.

Whilst I prefer RTwP, this statement makes sense. Their whole combat AI, which is so influencial on many game design features, does not support it. Instead of having a new RTwP made specifically for this game, I would rather have a TB that really reflects a tabletop experience and this is where Larian has so far failed to deliver. However there are changes that have been implemented in the patches released this year, thus indicating they acknowledge some issues. So let's hope they will improve the weird combat balance, to my mind a much bigger issue than the combat mode itself.

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Real Time with pause sucks. I love the way it is set out in Baldurs Gate 3 currently, where you have Turn based for combat (like tabletop DnD) and real time with optional turn based mode for everything else. Beautiful laugh

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To be honest, Pause-and-Command is a big part of why I never finished a lot of the BG1&2 and IWD stuff to begin with. It was less of an issue somehow in NWN1&2 but I once again found myself hating it in Pillars of Eternity. I wouldn't mind it being an option. But it would likely kill a lot of my enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
To be honest, Pause-and-Command is a big part of why I never finished a lot of the BG1&2 and IWD stuff to begin with. It was less of an issue somehow in NWN1&2 but I once again found myself hating it in Pillars of Eternity. I wouldn't mind it being an option. But it would likely kill a lot of my enjoyment of the game.
Understandable. Just like turn-based combat kills a lot of my enjoyment of this game.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
It was less of an issue somehow in NWN1&2
Well in NWN1 you only manage one character, so. And NWN2 is slower with its different rule set, different implementation, and you can actually take it slow and will still be fine. BG2 is faster, even much faster, overall because of the way certain things are implemented, e.g. thieves' instant backstab/stealth, mages' contingencies/sequencers and the ability to easily overwhelm combat with crowd control spells like Horror, Confusion and other spells, high attacks-per-round, "spell interruption" mechanic that requires hitting the target during the casting animation, etc. Despite having 6 characters to manage, you often need to time and coordinate your attacks quite precisely to be effective in combat, so it can be hard. At least in the later rule sets the crowd control aspect is nerfed a lot.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Understandable. Just like turn-based combat kills a lot of my enjoyment of this game.
That's too bad. Just think of it as another Larian game. I've been playing P:K and I tried playing it in TB once (I accidentally hit the "switch to TB" button and thought I might as well try it). And I must say, combat actually felt really smooth and a bunch of things made a bit more sense in TB (like the timing of various actions), and I actually enjoyed that encounter more than I thought I would. Granted, it was a simple encounter and there wasn't much going on (against a bunch of centipedes each having 6 hp). So.... yeah, if I get to choose I'd still choose RTWP but TB is not that bad. I'm still secretly hoping that at some point down the line Larian will implement an option to switch between RTWP and TB like P:K did.


"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
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