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I've alluded to something like this throughout multiple threads throughout the months, but my thoughts on this have been rather jumbled.

From playing the Wrath of the Righteous beta, there was a lot about the companions there that really leapt out to me. They bantered with each other frequently instead of largely only reacting to whatever the player character did, and had voice lines when a battle starts, while attacking, another line when landing a critical hit, and they even had voice lines whenever they succeeded a perception check to warn the rest of the party. There's also random banter between the party members when long resting too, though this point isn't very relevant in a comparison to BG3. There's even certain points in the game where you'll see certain companions talking to other NPCs on their own within the game's various hub areas as you progress. One moderately spoilery example of this:

One of the companions, the Zen Archer Lann, is a mongrelman who has spent the majority of his life living in underground caves. During chapter 2, when the fifth crusade begins and everyone is traveling on the road, you can find a crusader within the camp questioning Lann about why he keeps staring at the sky. He basically states that he's never really known what it's like to live with a wide open sky above him, and that he finds it fascinating and terrifying. The crusader assumes that the latter part means that he may be concerned about winged enemies attacking the camp and lightly mocks him for that concern, but it's a very valid threat to Lann because he never had to consider such a thing while living in the caves. Of course, the camp gets ambushed at night in that exact way later in the game, with Lann barging into your tent to make sure you haven't been ambushed while also complaining about how he had been warning the other archers to watch the sky. (The rest of the companions had already been taken or were fighting off the ambush in other parts of the camp, and slowly rejoin your party throughout that part of the game.)

After that part of the story is resolved, you can find Lann and the crusader talking to each other within the camp again, with the crusader vowing revenge against the demons for the events of the previous night. Both interactions are very easy to miss if you just head straight for the camp exit nearby.

The details are minor, but they add up over time to have a very subtle effect towards making the characters feel like they're a part of the world rather than relatively disconnected from it. Such things can be a very effective narrative tool - for example, some of the lines that one of the WotR companions says during combat basically clues the player in that they are not what they are presenting themselves as.

At the moment in regards to BG3, it feels like the only companions that really have any sort of non-neutral relationship with each other are Lae'zel and Shadowheart, although it may only be that way in my mind due to knowing certain spoiler information from datamines. The rest seem completely indifferent to each other, but may bicker from time to time about what they believe is useful at that very moment. There are hardly any moments where they will actually speak to each other on a personal level, but I recognize that it may also be a narrative limitation from how selfish/reserved they currently appear to be presented as. It's a big reason why there are complaints about the perceived asshole personalities/cynicism of the BG3 companions.

To shake off this image, you should consider livening up the companions with more smaller interactions and voice lines in general. Upon further thought, maybe you can try something that I don't recall ever seeing in any game period, and have voice lines for characters when attacking certain enemies. Bosses in games tend to have plenty of personal things to say to the player characters and companions, but I struggle to think of a game that actually takes advantage of the reverse too. For example, perhaps Wyll can have some choice lines when attacking goblins. Or Gale can try to be a smartass and display his supposedly superior intellect with snarky comments about less known creatures, like beholders at the start of an encounter against one (maybe even providing the player a clue as to what one of their weaknesses may be or what they are capable of). A water elemental could be Astarion's worst nightmare and should result in some really hilarious lines.

That said, since it's been several months since we've heard anything in regards to this game's development, it's possible a fair amount of the concerns I have here are already being addressed later on. But in the case it isn't, a thread is warranted.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 29/05/21 08:40 AM.
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I haven't played WotR so I cannot compare, but I will never say no to more interaction with and between the companions. I like your idea about specific enemy type voice lines, though I'm not sure if it's something they'll invest in at this point.

I have had my companions speak up about perception checks. Occasionally they say nothing, but overall it hasn't been an issue for me.

Also, perhaps you've already seen this, but Pjenn on tumblr / youtube has datamined that companions will have spoken lines in combat that change based on your relationship. That's not interaction between the companions, but something to look forward to nonetheless.

I'm hopeful that our companions become more interactive with each other later on as they spend more time together. I wonder if what we see now is just what they're allowing us to see and that the interactions will seem more complete in the final release.

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Seconding this, thanks Saito.

I'd really love it if the dialogue and character interaction wasn't designed like it's an AVN... Currently that's the format it takes, and it's kind of off-putting in a CRPG. Aside from a tiny handful of fixed-point banters that are easy to miss due to the control system, the other party members speak exclusively to you in one-on-one circumstances and treat their relationships as existing solely with you, as though the other party members more or less don't exist. You can comfortably be a completely different person to each of them, to build successful relationships with all of them, and there is no sign that any of them ever interact in any way to call you on this.

Other, older, CRPGs HAD conversations like that, certainly, but they were supported by a plethora of other inter-party interactions both between individual members, and most commonly within the group as a whole, where several individuals were involved and you had a chance to define yourself properly and participate in that conversation; that doesn't exist here, barring partially for one optional scene, and once, again only faintly, at the end of the act.

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True, but I think recorded lines for combat is something we could reasonably see being implemented and isn't foreign to the genre. I hope it's implemented!

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I've alluded to something like this throughout multiple threads throughout the months, but my thoughts on this have been rather jumbled.

From playing the Wrath of the Righteous beta, there was a lot about the companions there that really leapt out to me. They bantered with each other frequently instead of largely only reacting to whatever the player character did, they would all say something when attacking, landing a critical hit, and they even had voice lines whenever they succeeded a perception check to warn the rest of the party. There's also random banter between the party members when long resting too, though this point isn't very relevant in a comparison to BG3. The details are minor, but they add up over time to have a very subtle effect towards making the characters feel like they're a part of the world rather than relatively disconnected from it. Such things can be a very effective narrative tool - for example, some of the lines that one of the WotR companions says during combat basically clues the player in that they are not what they are presenting themselves as.

At the moment in regards to BG3, it feels like the only companions that really have any sort of non-neutral relationship with each other are Lae'zel and Shadowheart, although it may only be that way in my mind due to knowing certain spoiler information from datamines. The rest seem completely indifferent to each other, but may bicker from time to time about what they believe is useful at that very moment. There are hardly any moments where they will actually speak to each other on a personal level, but I recognize that it may also be a narrative limitation from how selfish/reserved they currently appear to be presented as. It's a big reason why there are complaints about the perceived asshole personalities/cynicism of the BG3 companions.

To shake off this image, you should consider livening up the companions with more smaller interactions and voice lines in general. Upon further thought, maybe you can try something that I don't recall ever seeing in any game period, and have voice lines for characters when attacking certain enemies. Bosses in games tend to have plenty of personal things to say to the player characters and companions, but I struggle to think of a game that actually takes advantage of the reverse too. For example, perhaps Wyll can have some choice lines when attacking goblins. Or Gale can try to be a smartass and display his supposedly superior intellect with snarky comments about less known creatures, like beholders at the start of an encounter against one (maybe even providing the player a clue as to what one of their weaknesses may be or what they are capable of). A water elemental could be Astarion's worst nightmare and should result in some really hilarious lines.

That said, since it's been several months since we've heard anything in regards to this game's development, it's possible a fair amount of the concerns I have here are already being addressed later on. But in the case it isn't, a thread is warranted.

I definitely feel the same regarding all of the above. I'll add to that the unwarranted deference to the player's decisions, that hardly anyone ever has anything to say to NPCs you encounter, and hardly ever anyone reacts to anything.

While being summoned to some extraplanar fortress to be courted by a devil, not a peep out of anyone. If you like, you can go have a one-on-one conversation with each companion about it individually at camp after the fact. This honestly felt like just tediously clicking through a dialogue tree to get spoonfed exposition. There were no group discussions at all as far as I could tell.

It just didn't feel like an adventuring party in any way.

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Im allways in for more interaction ...
Even if im not actualy part of it. laugh

But i would like to add at least one more.
Dunno, if that is just my perspective (so feel free to tell me, if you think im wrong) ... but one companion seem to get a lot more work than the others.
And its obviously Shadowheart.

I dont quite understand why she is the only one we can discuss our previous adventures, why she is the only one who can give us her insight on what happened in druid groove, or etc.
There is simply much, much, and once more much more conversation options with her, and i would certainly like to see others to get same love. :-/


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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The only group where I've had notable companion interactions so far was Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Wyll. Shadowheart and Lae'zel were sniping at each other, while Wyll was trying (and failing) to flirt with both ladies. It was hilarious and my favourite party set up from all the playthroughs. Hopefully they add more companion interactions to others, because Astarion and Gale seemed quite boring by comparison, since their interactions were mostly with the main character.

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So I recorded a small demonstration of relatively minor exploration/combat dialogue in Wrath of the Righteous. Anything in regards to actual inter-party companion dialogue would probably veer well into major spoiler territory, so I'm leaving that out until the game officially launches in about three months.




Everyone has lines for a bunch of things. There could be an argument to be made about how such dialogue might be a bit immersion-breaking, but at the same time, it adds a lot of much-needed personality to the characters. Most people would probably prefer some amount of dialogue rather than outright silence too. Such things have a pretty subtle effect in that you can get a small sense of what they're about just by listening to them.

(And don't mind my gameplay. The game's still openly balanced for real-time with pause, but you notice the voice clips a lot more in turn-based.)

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I actually find those types of voice lines really cringey eek but maybe that's just me. I'd like to see more party banter and group discussions, but I get super annoyed with those kinds of lines like in the WotR video.

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Thanks for the comparrison, Saito; your videos are always helpful tools.

I think having selection and action voice bites is neat, but it's definitely a necessary QoL feature to be able to turn up or down the frequency of them for your personal tastes. Even better would be to be able to turn frequency up and down for individual characters, but now I'm getting fanciful. I like them for interactions between characters in particular; comments that occur between two character when you heal, or when one defends or protects another, etc., those are the best times to slip things in, for me.

Aside: If I play P:WotR, can I play a halfling who rides her wolf companion? Because that would really be a major stack up for it, for me personally....


Edit: Watching the rest of that video, I find myself really wishing that they had follow-up barks as well... contextual one-twos, you know? Like, you go into stealth a the end, and the comment comes out "they'll never see me coming", and then immediately get spotted and go into combat. I'd really like it if there was a follow up "They saw me coming..." when things like that happen.

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One small detail I enjoy a lot in both the Pathfinder games is when you are camping and your companions start short dialogues teasing each other.
Another example of "acknowledging their mutual existence and not just the MC being SUPER-AWESOME".


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Originally Posted by Niara
Thanks for the comparrison, Saito; your videos are always helpful tools.
Edit: Watching the rest of that video, I find myself really wishing that they had follow-up barks as well... contextual one-twos, you know? Like, you go into stealth a the end, and the comment comes out "they'll never see me coming", and then immediately get spotted and go into combat. I'd really like it if there was a follow up "They saw me coming..." when things like that happen.

That would be so awesome. "I'll chop your head off!" ...one second later... "Or he'll chop your head off. That works too."

Or have a rivalry between two companions who would shout out incrementing numbers during one battle each time they scored a kill. Or have a character who doesn't like another make a pithy comment each time they heal them.

They could be extra fancy and have lighthearted banter when everyone had at least 80% health, and have the mood turn more somber as health started dropping, and vengeful rage barks whenever someone in the party died.

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Originally Posted by Sabra
I actually find those types of voice lines really cringey eek but maybe that's just me. I'd like to see more party banter and group discussions, but I get super annoyed with those kinds of lines like in the WotR video.
Not just you. Party banter is great, the other stuff makes me end up playing the game with sound off because it is so bloody annoying.

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Originally Posted by Sabra
I actually find those types of voice lines really cringey eek but maybe that's just me. I'd like to see more party banter and group discussions, but I get super annoyed with those kinds of lines like in the WotR video.
Nah. That's not just you. My cringe-meter just exploded.
Party banter is one thing, but those characters' comments when you just select them should stay in such genres as fighting.

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Originally Posted by Sabra
I actually find those types of voice lines really cringey eek but maybe that's just me. I'd like to see more party banter and group discussions, but I get super annoyed with those kinds of lines like in the WotR video.

Yeah, like I said, it's an extremely minor example and not everyone's cup of tea. I still prefer it to the complete silence of the BG3 companions so far, though. The purpose of the video is mostly to demonstrate that it's a a possible avenue to building up characterization for a character. I was also deliberately trying to trigger as many voice lines as possible at the start of the video precisely to demonstrate this point - you hear them rather infrequently during normal gameplay otherwise (and especially not as often in RTwP compared to turn-based).

For example, one of the characters in my party presents herself as a noblewoman who has taken some fencing classes with a rapier. Her combat voice lines are your very first clue that something is REALLY off about her, aside from the fact that she also happens to be a Druid for reasons you don't yet know and doesn't act like any you'd ever know either.

There's also voice lines that everyone has upon dropping to critical HP, but I didn't let things get to that point for a reason.

I would record the actual party banter that occasionally occurs during certain events (which is far more critical to my point), but it potentially veers straight into spoiler territory. Maybe I'll find an acceptable example somewhere later. I don't think I'd be able to come up with anything appropriate within the next day - it appears all of my save files right now are literally right before or past a certain point of no return involving a 1-2 hour mega-dungeon that I have to commit to finishing. And I want to avoid making another recording in there, since it's personally my favorite dungeon in every cRPG I've ever played for a huge variety of rather spoilery reasons. Not quite as much as FFXIV end of Shadowbringers spoilers level, but I'd say the atmosphere is basically a similar level of quality by cRPG standards.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Thanks for the comparrison, Saito; your videos are always helpful tools.
Edit: Watching the rest of that video, I find myself really wishing that they had follow-up barks as well... contextual one-twos, you know? Like, you go into stealth a the end, and the comment comes out "they'll never see me coming", and then immediately get spotted and go into combat. I'd really like it if there was a follow up "They saw me coming..." when things like that happen.

That would be so awesome. "I'll chop your head off!" ...one second later... "Or he'll chop your head off. That works too."

Or have a rivalry between two companions who would shout out incrementing numbers during one battle each time they scored a kill. Or have a character who doesn't like another make a pithy comment each time they heal them.

They could be extra fancy and have lighthearted banter when everyone had at least 80% health, and have the mood turn more somber as health started dropping, and vengeful rage barks whenever someone in the party died.

This is a pretty solid point. And as I said earlier with BG3 having the potential to go the extra mile by having dialogue for certain characters tailored to certain enemy types, BG3 could try something like this too. Because I don't think I've heard of any cRPG really going all out on this category.

Amusingly enough, Solasta of all things actually DOES have voice lines from other party members when a different party member takes a critical hit or drops to critical HP/performs a critical miss or a critical hit. There's even voice lines for a party member getting detected in stealth too, which can be done by the character who got detected or another party member calling them out for it.

Originally Posted by Niara
Aside: If I play P:WotR, can I play a halfling who rides her wolf companion? Because that would really be a major stack up for it, for me personally....

WotR has mounted combat implemented, though I haven't tinkered with it much because it was infamously broken (as in, of the bug-filled variety) for a pretty long time until recently.

Warning: additional off-topic mild companion build sperging below-

If you keep Seelah (the Paladin and the game's primary tank) single-classed, she can be built for mounted combat somewhat early in the game, or focus more on improving her single target damage through weapon enhancing abilities. Mounted combat is generally the more favored choice, because it lets her ignore her massive movement speed weakness and run to wherever she needs to go to wreck/intercept an enemy going for your back line. And there is a lot of shit that tries to go for your back line/hard target your main character first in WotR, compared to Kingmaker. Which is why my backliner Eldritch Archer still uses defensive spells like Shield.

We think her tiger thing is supposed to be a horse like what you'd normally expect from a Paladin, but it's been over an entire year of testing by this point and it's stayed the same, so... One could argue it's still fitting for her, because she doesn't really behave like your typical Paladin either. I think you can ride stuff like bears and maybe even wyverns too, but you have to pick specific classes and/or archetypes for that kind of thing. Despite an entire year's worth of testing, I still don't know enough about Pathfinder's absurd class variety to really elaborate in this category. Apparently my character firing spells through his bow is pretty tame compared to the kind of shit I've heard others building for.

(On the topic of stuff going for your back line, it's probably worth mentioning something else interesting I've noted from this most recent beta phase. You know how in BG3, enemies seem to hard target whoever has the lowest AC? Kingmaker had the opposite problem in that everything went after your front line because ranged enemies/back line ambushes were extremely rare. WotR has a bigger mix of tactics, one of which involves things like enemy archers switching targets to whoever attempted to attack them/inflicted the most damage against them previously. It's pretty interesting AI behavior.)

WotR's companions have very atypical combat roles, even when compared to the Kingmaker companions. Kingmaker companions played things rather straight in regards to their combat roles, while the WotR companions appear to be deliberately designed so that you can build them in multiple directions even if you keep them single-classed. I described Seelah up there, who most people either go the shield wall or the mobile mounted bruiser route with.

The druid Camelia who wields a rapier and buckler can act as a support caster/buff bot, but she can be easily built as a tank too, along with inflicting respectable melee damage with her weapon enchant abilities later on. Ember can be built for buff/healing support, but is more than capable of being a scary ass fire blaster, and can occasionally shut down enemies using her single target slumber ability that nothing in the game aside from swarms are outright immune to. Lann has a completely novel build that I've never seen in any other cRPG to date - he is a TANK ARCHER, potentially capable of stacking as much AC as the actual tanks, and gets easy access to feats that denies opportunity attacks against him and lets him perform opportunity attacks with his bow. When he's not blocking off melee attackers ambushing your back line, he even gets a personal dimension door that lets him warp to enemy spellcasters in the enemy back line, threaten them all with opportunity attacks, and then once he's done with them he'll turn around and wreck the enemy front line from behind.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 29/05/21 08:15 AM.
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+1 on anything that leads to more dialogues, monologues, commentary or anything of the liking. c:


Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
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This would make the game and the characters so much more alive...

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Originally Posted by Dez
+1 on anything that leads to more dialogues, monologues, commentary or anything of the liking. c:

Another +1 from me too. smile

Although I don't like characters speaking when just being selected - that gets very annoying, very fast.

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So I snapped two quick videos of Wrath of the Righteous party members interjecting during dialogue. Fairly minor examples, maybe mildly spoilery.

The end of the first video actually has an example of one party member interjecting and then another party member directly responding to what they say. The second video involves party members directly talking to an NPC, and the NPC actually responding back to them.




I might get better examples later on. There's one really hilarious interaction I can think of that requires three specific party members present in your party with all of them directly responding to each other, and I'm going to make a note to record that one when I get there again. Such things may seem minor, but they really add up over time.

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Originally Posted by Niara
I think having selection and action voice bites is neat, but it's definitely a necessary QoL feature to be able to turn up or down the frequency of them for your personal tastes. Even better would be to be able to turn frequency up and down for individual characters, but now I'm getting fanciful.

So I was planning on bumping this thread since I was debating on whether or not I should bother recording any further demonstrations or just wait for everyone to see everything for themselves, because the few demonstrations I was thinking about were arguably deep into companion story spoiler territory. But I did notice this option that I do not remember seeing previously before.

[Linked Image from cdn.discordapp.com]

I wonder if someone on Owlcat staff has actually been browsing this forum...

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