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Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.

For all we know (and I suspect it will happen), there will be instanced night missions etc in BG. Considering your dealing with vampires. But a full day/night cycle, I just don't think will be in the cards. Or maybe Larian will pop it as a surprise, but I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.
I really dislike their rationale for it too.
Among the examples they used I remeber that they'd need to add bedroom for all characters, give them a daily schedule and all that jazz.
And frankly THAT would cost a lot, but it would also be absolute overkill that no one is asking them to do.

The assumption that "You either go ALL THE WAY IN or you shouldn't even bother" is a stupid one. Most of us would gladly accept the compromises necessary (i.e. "daily" NPC that simply disappear at night -and the other way around- and similar shit).
There are plenty of advantages and improvements enabled even by a more conventional and modest implementation of the feature. Like the old BG 1 and 2 already proved in several circumstances and like plenty of other games did after them.
Well, actually even before, since I think it's Ultima that introduced it first.

And what's more relevant, there are consequences of not having a D/N cycle that go way beyond cosmetic changes or the chances to to add time-specific encounter design.
The whole fact that the game doesn't have a proper tiredness mechanic and that their rest system is such a half-baked and yet convoluted mess are arguably all indirect consequences of having a game that doesn't consistently account for time passing and doesn't differentiate about context.

This is why Owlcat can get away with a "cheap" solution with characters camping anywhere (at a risk) and having banters with each other while Larian has an instanced magical place that somehow is the same wherever you are traveling (even the Underdark!), improves by itself over time (who's building these fucking tents, anyway?) and where ALL the character interactions take place.

And somehow the first solution manages to comes off as incomparably more effective, consistent and immersive than the second, despise most likely costing a fraction.


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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.
That sounds surprisingly good!


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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It sounds surprisingly standard, more than anything.
I could go back to the 80s listing games that had something similar.

It's just Larian that seems to think you'd need to be at the cutting edge of tech to implement it.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
It sounds surprisingly standard, more than anything.
I could go back to the 80s listing games that had something similar.

It's just Larian that seems to think you'd need to be at the cutting edge of tech to implement it.

I may be wrong but I don't believe they said it was a technology issue but a complexity issue. As in- adding day/night adds a layer of complexity to the already multiple layers of complexity they have in place. They would need to then add schedules to people's behavior, and they didn't want to do that.

Personally I would love to see it, even if they had to hire an extra 10-15 people to handle the workload and even if it delayed the game by 6 months or more. I would rather have it than not, but I don't know what the actual resource levels are.

It just feels really important to have a feeling that time is moving and to see Baldur's gate at night.


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I mean, I'm talking specifically about what they said just two posts before.

That said, I don't even care about what would be the excuse, exactly. It has been done, it could be done and it should be their task to figure out how to do it more efficiently, not ours.
Personally? Aside for the fact that I'd gladly give up on other more... fanciful and situation features (coff coff... Origins) to get this, I'd be perfectly fine if they said "We are doing it, but we are delaying the game six months only for this".
Fine by me. Take your time and do it right.

Last edited by Tuco; 03/06/21 12:06 PM.

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Are they really not going to do day and night for the actual city of BG?

Can you please show me where larian have said this?

We need night time graphics to make rogue guilds and stealing ect more realistic 100%!!!

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Originally Posted by teclis23
Are they really not going to do day and night for the actual city of BG?

Can you please show me where larian have said this?

We need night time graphics to make rogue guilds and stealing ect more realistic 100%!!!
They said they are not going to do it at all. Anywhere in the game.

They never specified the limits of where that would apply.


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Having certain quests or maps at night would be a half-arsed implementation IMO and only serve to reinforce the sense of a static world where we can only experience things at certain/fixed times of the day.

I've noted in these forums some have suggested that scripting the routines for NPCs would be problematic...and I ask out of ignorance but why is this a problem with BG3 but not a problem in Pillars of Eternity for example, where NPCs went to sleep? Something to do with the game engines...or what?

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Originally Posted by Etruscan
Having certain quests or maps at night would be a half-arsed implementation IMO and only serve to reinforce the sense of a static world where we can only experience things at certain/fixed times of the day.

I've noted in these forums some have suggested that scripting the routines for NPCs would be problematic...and I ask out of ignorance but why is this a problem with BG3 but not a problem in Pillars of Eternity for example, where NPCs went to sleep? Something to do with the game engines...or what?

Larian said it so parrots repeated.

It never has been a problem in any games from the first D/N cycle and games have found / can find new ways to implement consistent D/N cycle.

If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
They had (quote) "reworked 60% of their engine" for BG3 but it was unnecessary to implement time and D/N cycle because you know... Their games are amazing so why would they bother to change/improve what's not necessary ? (Combat balance, chain, D/N, origin characters, UI,...)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 03/06/21 02:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but the goal WAS reached.
Larian just declared at a later date that the feature was more work than expected and scrapped it.

But fine, they were a small financially troubled studio with a crowdfunded pet project. I accepted that.
Then the game turned out to be a massive success, a sequel came with a far bigger budget... And D/N cycle was still nowhere to be seen, because it didn't fit their vision and their style or something. Fine.

Now it's the time of BG3, which is shaping up to be a colossal game with a gigantic budget by "isometric/top down RPG" standards. Nah, Larian still thinks it's too much to ask and that "You aren't going all in, you better not even bother with it at all" which is an incredibly bad take, proven wrong by DOZENS of titles in the genre that did just fine with a compromise, a middle ground. And they were better games for it.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but the goal WAS reached.
Larian just declared at a later date that the feature was more work than expected and scrapped it.

I wasn't sarcastic, I didn't know that.

What a shame, really.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 03/06/21 03:12 PM.
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Aside from the gameplay issues, there is also an emotional and aesthetic result of having day/night cycles. My most memorable moment from Neverwinter Nights II was walking up the trail to the HighCliff ruins while watching the moon cross the starry sky and reflect from the ripples in the water below. I literally stopped playing just to stand and watch that scenery play out for a few minutes. Ahhh!

Then the sun came up and it was time to put some zombies back in the ground.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but the goal WAS reached.
Larian just declared at a later date that the feature was more work than expected and scrapped it.

But fine, they were a small financially troubled studio with a crowdfunded pet project. I accepted that.
Then the game turned out to be a massive success, a sequel came with a far bigger budget... And D/N cycle was still nowhere to be seen, because it didn't fit their vision and their style or something. Fine.

Now it's the time of BG3, which is shaping up to be a colossal game with a gigantic budget by "isometric/top down RPG" standards. Nah, Larian still thinks it's too much to ask and that "You aren't going all in, you better not even bother with it at all" which is an incredibly bad take, proven wrong by DOZENS of titles in the genre that did just fine with a compromise, a middle ground. And they were better games for it.
Dear Jesus, is it this much work?
Solasta implemented D/N cycles a year into development with 17 people, whereas BG3 hasn't done (and apparently will not do so) after 4 years with 400 people.
Larian, please, you are coming off as lazy.

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I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.

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Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Whilst I don't know the codding challenges related to the issue, I have to add that Neverwinter Nights did MP coupled with D/N cycles 20 years ago and BGEE adapted the original code to work with MP, so it is definitely possible to code it.

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Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Addressed in the very first page of the thread (and several times before in the past):

Originally Posted by Tuco
it was a very simple limitation to work around in the end: "Freeze the clock for everyone when one of the players is in turn based mode. Make it march again when all the players are in real time".
I mean, the limitation that everyone needs to agree for a long rest (and that no one can be in combat) was already in place, anyway. So it's not like that was going to make a big difference.
Sure, the length of the day (or night) may extend a bit even for the player that was in "real time all the time". But so what?

Last edited by Tuco; 03/06/21 09:23 PM.

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Incidentally someone just resurrected one of my old threads about this same topic in the "Suggestion and Feedback" subforum and made a fairly good summary of how this could be approached to several degree of commitment.
Here's a quote of his post, not sure if he will bother coming posting here himself:


Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I'm not a game designer, but I believe this can be solved with degrees of complexity, implementing one step at a time.

Step 1 - Only Cosmetic Change: Place two instances, day and night, in the map, adjusting the position of the light for each one. Everything else remains the same.

Step 2 - The Basic: Set two positions for each NPC – one for the day (a) and one for the night (b). You can talk to them normally. Applies lighting-based stealth modifiers, with the ability to extinguish torches for better modifiers.

Step 3 - Extra Dialogues: NPCs approached at night, if they are sleeping, will speak a line of dialogue complaining, but after that, they speak normally with the characters. Sellers may refuse to sell items before dawn. Open doors at day can be closed at night.

Step 4 - Dangers of the Night: Some enemies and new creatures appear during the night (like worgs or skeletons).

Step 5 - Four Stages: Adds four stages of the day. Morning (a), Afternoon (b), Evening (c), and Night (d). NPCs can now have four different positions instead of just two (day and night).

Step 6 - Gradual Time Passage: Now just let time pass naturally, from one stage to another. NPCs will walk to their next location when the switch happening.

Extra: Multiplayer
- When a player asks for time to pass (by pressing the short rest button) the other players must agree. Simple.


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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Whilst I don't know the codding challenges related to the issue, I have to add that Neverwinter Nights did MP coupled with D/N cycles 20 years ago and BGEE adapted the original code to work with MP, so it is definitely possible to code it.

Yes, implementing D/N cycles isn't particularly complex, and has been done many times before. It's somewhat gone out of fashion with some developers, but I've not read anywhere what their reasoning is.

It might be due to player pressure, since some players dislike dealing with people moving ( having to search for them ) or finding shops closed when they want to use them etc.

It's also possible that there are technical reasons; for example, some high quality lighting solutions in games pre-calculate illumination for scenes, which means there cannot be dynamic, time-based global illumination. You could still do D/N flip similar to Athkatla in BG2, by simply pre-calculating 2 lighting solutions.

There would definitely be a cost attached to adding a D/N cycle, but only Larian know exactly what that would be, and they are not saying.

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