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Originally Posted by Tuco
Frankly I can name pretty much any minor or major forum I lurk or frequent and the outcome tends to stay pretty much the same across the board: most people don't like several of the changes Larian introduced and tend to be very vocal again it.
Sometimes so negative that I'm the one who has to play "good cop" and suggest to them to tone down their rants, pointing that "it's not all bad".

Incidentally, I'm looking at one of those right now.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/baldurs-gate-3-early-access-ot-rolling-the-dice.301235/page-37

I imagine none of these people aside from Tuco are even on the Larian forums.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
But here is the thing - at the end of the day it doesn't matter (to me) that Larian tweaks the rules - what matters is do they balance those tweaks by ensuring the encounters are challenging and fun. If no one was showing up on this forum saying the encounters are too difficult I would be worried. That people are showing up on the regular and doing just that makes me extremely happy.

This is a larger rant - but most game companies these days provide games with no real challenge, that feed people easy achievements and gear and in exchange they milk their little "herd" of gamers for microtransactions. This is the literal model for almost all game companies.

I feel like the game is difficult for the wrong reasons. The systems are designed in a way that I feel that combat is entirely balanced around getting to high ground/front-loaded surprise round and first round alpha strikes to do as much as you can before the enemy party gets to retaliate. There's a huge difference in difficulty from going into a fight using conventional tactics VS splitting up the entire party/one party member initiating combat while the other three sneak around avoiding sight cones and drop stuff/shove people with 100% success chance because of the whole time bubble thing going on, and the combat difficulty feels like it's balanced for the latter rather than the former. It's one thing to reload to approach a fight from a different angle, and then there's outright abusing clairvoyance.

Things like this are why you still get complaints about the RNG despite Larian doing everything in their power to mitigate it through their own systems. It has an extreme psychological effect in that anything without advantage or anything that doesn't benefit from advantage rolls (spells targeting saving throws) suddenly feels absolutely awful to use. Incidentally, damaging spells that do target saving throws tend to be useful in that later variants inflict half damage if an enemy saves against them, rather than no damage at all. Problem is, there are very few such spells in EA right now, and most classes don't start seeing them until level 5+ anyway - which we probably won't see in EA period. That and many classes getting access to extra attack at level 5 is already going to result in a wildly different balancing situation.

(When the Bard class is released, people will get to play around with one such spell that does half damage upon a successful save, one exclusive to Bards called Dissonant Whispers. It's one of the Bard's few offensive spells at low levels, and it targets enemy wisdom saves. Full damage + enemy is immediately forced to move as far away from you as they can if they fail (will probably get turned into a frightened effect in BG3), half damage if they succeed.)

Incidentally, I just noticed you joined the forums about a month after I made a massive thread outlining how all of these systems negatively impact the overall experience in the long term. It's rather telling that the thread existed for a whole week, and no one even came into the thread to directly argue against any of the points being made at any point in that time period. I've just become even more pessimistic since due to the radio silence.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=96428&Number=757307#Post757307

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I feel like the game is difficult for the wrong reasons. The systems are designed in a way that I feel that combat is entirely balanced around getting to high ground/front-loaded surprise round and first round alpha strikes to do as much as you can before the enemy party gets to retaliate.

That's fair, but there are multiple reasons being aggressive makes sense and results in victory. if you are always facing the enemy instead of running away you are denying them advantage. If you play a defensive game you are trading some form of healing or mitigation for damage that could even out the action economy. Additionally you have to trust that your teammates will back your play the same way you would back theirs (in terms of multiplayer) and they will respond with the same level of aggression.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Things like this are why you still get complaints about the RNG despite Larian doing everything in their power to mitigate it through their own systems. It has an extreme psychological effect in that anything without advantage or anything that doesn't benefit from advantage rolls (spells targeting saving throws) suddenly feels absolutely awful to use. Incidentally, damaging spells that do target saving throws tend to be useful in that later variants inflict half damage if an enemy saves against them, rather than no damage at all. Problem is, there are very few such spells in EA right now, and most classes don't start seeing them until level 5+ anyway - which we probably won't see in EA period. That and many classes getting access to extra attack at level 5 is already going to result in a wildly different balancing situation.

People can complain about RNG but what game - based on dice rolls - were they expecting? The smart play is to focus on spells and abilities that target an opponents weak saving rolls. Larian gives us a HUGE advantage by letting us examine the monsters before combat and work out where they have weaknesses, which is why the best spell to use against the Bullet is "Command:Halt" - since its wisdom is 10 and it doesn't have wisdom saving proficiency. Its also weak against Dissonant Whispers.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
(When the Bard class is released, people will get to play around with one such spell that does half damage upon a successful save, one exclusive to Bards called Dissonant Whispers. It's one of the Bard's few offensive spells at low levels, and it targets enemy wisdom saves. Full damage + enemy is immediately forced to move as far away from you as they can if they fail (will probably get turned into a frightened effect in BG3), half damage if they succeed.)

Dissonant Whispers is in game. GOO Warlocks get it on the bonus spell list. It works just like you mentioned.

https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dissonant+Whispers


Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Incidentally, I just noticed you joined the forums about a month after I made a massive thread outlining how all of these systems negatively impact the overall experience in the long term. It's rather telling that the thread existed for a whole week, and no one even came into the thread to directly argue against any of the points being made at any point in that time period. I've just become even more pessimistic since due to the radio silence.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=96428&Number=757307#Post757307

I have been on the forums for years but I forgot my old password. Too many guesses so its probably locked. So I just made a new account.

I read your post - and here is the thing, its all great points and if Larian decided to be more strict about where Advantage was applied I would be 100% behind that. However they also need to fix concentration so we can properly use spells that provide advantage on the battlefield and not lose the slot because somebody tossed a alchemist fire at your feet and you took 2 burn damage, or add the Feat that allows you to ignore the first ten points of damage against having to make a concentration check and giving you advantage on those checks.


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The systems are designed in a way that I feel that combat is entirely balanced around getting to high ground/front-loaded surprise round and first round alpha strikes to do as much as you can before the enemy party gets to retaliate. There's a huge difference in difficulty from going into a fight using conventional tactics VS splitting up the entire party/one party member initiating combat while the other three sneak around avoiding sight cones and drop stuff/shove people with 100% success chance because of the whole time bubble thing going on, and the combat difficulty feels like it's balanced for the latter rather than the former. It's one thing to reload to approach a fight from a different angle, and then there's outright abusing clairvoyance.

I found the same approach to be necessary for DOS2 and it dragged after a while because it was the same approach every combat. It might be tactically efficient but personally i didn't find it enjoyable time after time. DOS2 was strategic sure (need to consider a variety of workable builds from the beginning), but tactically it often converged to a limited number of methods (alpha strike or surfaces/barrels).

It didn't help that many people considered an extremely OP alpha strike on repeat to be consistently enjoyable tactics so it was hard to discuss alternative non alpha strike based tactics. I didn't realize that's what they meant when everybody said it was tactical until i was halfway through the game and i had just accepted that most fights would require a reload after dying the first time to learn who and where to alpha strike.

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Thanks for the link. I've submitted a ticket.

Ignoring the tendency of some users to go into a discussion assuming that the OP is a complete back-birth who has never played a game before, there are a number of good arguments made here on both sides. The statistical discussion has reminded me why I flat-out refuse to teach stats, no matter how often the department chair tries to talk me into it ( mad ), so I will skip all of that. I would like to address some of the other points, though.

1) Scouting is all well and good (and is the reason that I stopped trying to play anything other than a rogue), but if you scout into a group of mobs and they spot you (remember the RNG thing?) you're dead before you have a chance to assess the situation.

2) Barrelmancy is a thing, and some people may actually find it entertaining. I don't. If barrelmancy is the only "right" strategy for playing the game, then I'm not interested in playing.

3) Having to reload 40 times a week because most encounters start with the party outnumbered, surprised and having already lost the high ground doesn't make a game "tactical", it makes it poorly designed. Similarly, a game in which the best tactic is ALWAYS "climb the highest structure and play King of the Hill while yeeting oil barrels down onto the enemy" is also not "tactical", it's one-dimensional.

Since the I was foolish enough to drop $60 on a game in the mistaken belief that it would be a D&D game, rather than DOS 3, I'm forced to do what I can to make the game playable FOR ME. I don't care if the game is playable for you. It'd be nice if we all could enjoy it, but if I have to choose, I choose me. People who love barrelmancy already have multiple DOS games to slake their love of oil barrels. I just want another Neverwinter Nights, or something vaguely similar.

(As an aside, anyone who wants to Venmo me the $60 I spent on EA can buy my silence; I'll delete my forum account and mothball the game until 1.0 releases. DM me your account and I'll send you a request for payment.) thankyou

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Personally, I found the combat serviceable. I didn't think it was terribly hard. I'm not super keen on barrelmancy and free disengages, and backstab cheese, etc., but I would much prefer that they focus their efforts on fixing the dialogue and giving us some immersive characters and story.

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Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
1) Scouting is all well and good (and is the reason that I stopped trying to play anything other than a rogue), but if you scout into a group of mobs and they spot you (remember the RNG thing?) you're dead before you have a chance to assess the situation.

I mean if you are in stealth mode and you cross a red vision cone area then you roll to see if you have been spotted. I mean I am legitimately curious how you are handling scouting. Are you unlinking the rest of your party from your stealthy party member? Are you wearing padded armor? Are you stealthing right up to the mobs and standing in multiple red vision cones?

Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
2) Barrelmancy is a thing, and some people may actually find it entertaining. I don't. If barrelmancy is the only "right" strategy for playing the game, then I'm not interested in playing.

Barrelmancy is never needed. The people who think so are just not expending the effort to try to handle the combats without it. If barrelmancy ever gets removed those people will find themselves in the same place you are.

Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
3) Having to reload 40 times a week because most encounters start with the party outnumbered, surprised and having already lost the high ground doesn't make a game "tactical", it makes it poorly designed. Similarly, a game in which the best tactic is ALWAYS "climb the highest structure and play King of the Hill while yeeting oil barrels down onto the enemy" is also not "tactical", it's one-dimensional.

Like I said, if you want to get better maybe consider checking out multiplayer. I personally would be interested to see how you are handling combat and pre-combat encounters. You had mentioned previously that the Duegar fight was "unavoidable" which it isn't at all. That tells me you are missing a lot of things in your environment.

And hey, maybe this is you playing at your peak and you feel that you cannot possibly improve. Which if that is what you believe then it is of course true.

anyway, the Larian discord is below:

https://discord.com/invite/larianstudios

Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
Since the I was foolish enough to drop $60 on a game in the mistaken belief that it would be a D&D game, rather than DOS 3, I'm forced to do what I can to make the game playable FOR ME. I don't care if the game is playable for you. It'd be nice if we all could enjoy it, but if I have to choose, I choose me. People who love barrelmancy already have multiple DOS games to slake their love of oil barrels. I just want another Neverwinter Nights, or something vaguely similar.

Well the good news is when the game is fully released they will likely have various modes of difficulty, such as Story mode. So you can simply have a combat experience that meets with your level of expertise and not get stressed about encounters.


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Discussions in any games to handle hard encounters :
" I used this spell which has a good synergy with my other character's feature, I positioned 2 companions there and 2 other here. I builded my characters this way. Oh and I use this spell to buff and this one to have a better resistance to these damages".

Discussions in BG3 :
"You can avoid it, go higher, don't use true strike or faery fire, drink/eat at each turn, push, jump and don't forget about metagaming."

Being creative using the vast majority of the game's tools is never rewarded. You're only rewarded if you do what the game wants you to do or if you find "creative" ways to break the system.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I used this spell which has a good synergy with my other character's feature.
Like using electricity spells (witch bolt), after your cleric or druid makes enemies wet (create water)?
Yeah ... totally not an option in BG-3

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I positioned 2 companions there and 2 other here.
In other words, you send them higher.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I builded my characters this way.
So this other game have so badly created tooltips, that you dont even know wich stats is your class suposse to have? :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Oh and I use this spell to buff and this one to have a better resistance to these damages.
Sadly, BG-3 dont have any resistance potions that could be used before fight, and last until long rest, nor any cleric buff spells ... so once again, totally not an option. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Yeah that's definitely the kind of discussions / the kind of tips we can read A LOT on this forum (and any other).

Learn to read/understand wink wink wink

(3 smiles because I know you like them)

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At least we dont get "git gud" kind of tips. :-/
Right?


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
At least we dont get "git gud" kind of tips. :-/
Right?
No, never...

I realize that replying to Blackheifer is a waste of time, but here goes:

Your assumptions about my lack of skill are both wrong and completely besides the point. The point is that in a game "based on D&D" these encounters SHOULD NOT HAPPEN at these levels. Unless the intention is for 1.0 to have the group at level 5-6 by the time you hit the Underdark, these battles are WAY BEYOND the power level of the standard 4-PC party. Therefore, the only way to win them is to manipulate the rules.

On that note, I'd like to hear how YOU handled the Spectator encounter without barrelmancy and without just parking everyone on the high ground. Explain to me, in your infinte wisdom, how you cleverly used the abilities of your party synergistically in order to defeat a Spectator with double eye rays and double HP, as well as the half-dozen charmed 4th level Drow rangers that add into the combat, simply using the spells and weapons the game makes available to that point. It still wouldn't matter, because THAT WASN'T MY POINT. You can mansplain to someone old enough to be your father's older brother all you want. It doesn't change the fact that Larian has a well-established history of throwing characters into battles against significantly superior opponents, or that they are completely ignoring the VERY WELL ESTABLISHED balance that D&D has built over ~40 years between monsters and PCs, seemingly just so they can keep the "game play" consistent with DOS (which, as I stated earlier, I find to be a completely s4!t game).

That having been said, thank you to everyone who actually engaged with the topic I brought up. I really only meant it for the devs (I didn't realize there was a direct feedback link, so thanks again for the link!), but it's nice to see that other people out there are noticing this problem and thinking about it.

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Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
At least we dont get "git gud" kind of tips. :-/
Right?

Your assumptions about my lack of skill are both wrong and completely besides the point. The point is that in a game "based on D&D" these encounters SHOULD NOT HAPPEN at these levels. Unless the intention is for 1.0 to have the group at level 5-6 by the time you hit the Underdark, these battles are WAY BEYOND the power level of the standard 4-PC party. Therefore, the only way to win them is to manipulate the rules.
I'll be real, it's been hard to explain how encounters are balanced in D&D 5e to folks who haven't played. The encounter design in Baldur's Gate 3 is that of a dick-ish/powertripping DM (for lack of nicer terminology to use, I really did think about what descriptive words to use), especially in the Underdark.

I really dislike the Underdark encounters simply because it is where I'm absolutely forced to use Larian's homebrew. I can't just be a cool warlock/wizard fighting two minotaurs with my party, I have to exploit the homebrew.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
At least we dont get "git gud" kind of tips. :-/
Right?

Right.


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Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
I realize that replying to Blackheifer is a waste of time, but here goes:


On that note, I'd like to hear how YOU handled the Spectator encounter without barrelmancy and without just parking everyone on the high ground. Explain to me, in your infinte wisdom, how you cleverly used the abilities of your party synergistically in order to defeat a Spectator with double eye rays and double HP, as well as the half-dozen charmed 4th level Drow rangers that add into the combat, simply using the spells and weapons the game makes available to that point. It still wouldn't matter, because THAT WASN'T MY POINT. You can mansplain to someone old enough to be your father's older brother all you want. It doesn't change the fact that Larian has a well-established history of throwing characters into battles against significantly superior opponents, or that they are completely ignoring the VERY WELL ESTABLISHED balance that D&D has built over ~40 years between monsters and PCs, seemingly just so they can keep the "game play" consistent with DOS (which, as I stated earlier, I find to be a completely s4!t game).

So emotional.

1) The charm the beholder uses is a double-edged sword. It breaks on minor damage, so every time he releases one and you hit it there is a 50% chance they attack the beholder depending on who is closest. This further saturates the environment with targets for the beholder to go after besides yourself. It's sort of brilliant because its almost like the fight is designed to upend and randomize the action economy. You may own the action economy, or you may not.

2) The Explosive plants that are littered through the battle area can be used to; damage the drow to release them from the charm or damage the beholder who often moves itself into a position near one. Just shoot them.

3) There is a Spear you can find that deals additional damage to enemies with multiple eyes and has a chance to blind them. You may have found it by now if you dealt with the owlbear.

4) This is a good battle to bring in the Ogres if you managed to convince or bribe them to allow you to call them into battle since they will fight on your side.

5) There is also the Spectator in a Bottle you can use for some funny spectator on spectator violence. of course you have to kill that spectator then as well. To be honest I only use this method if I want to randomize the action economy further and up the possible challenge level.

6) This is one of those encounters you want to save potions of speed for as well as Hill Giant strength, void bulbs and other explosive items. Invisibility pots can give you an edge allowing your strongest fighter to get close (lae'zel), pop a speed pot use the wyvern poison and then go to town on the spectator.

7) Glut is also a huge help here, especially if you use him to Myconize a Deugar or a Minotaur. Duegar are easier to transplant.

So just some background. I played original Vanilla WoW when it released in 2004 and I was a hardcore Raider that worked with a lot of other guilds on theorycrafting for the higher-end Raid dungeons and bosses from AQ40 to Naxxramus. I was one of the 1% to complete Naxx when it was originally released. So to me, I love a good challenge like this, the harder the better.

I totally get that not everyone likes that sort of thing, and meaning no disrespect it's my hope that on release they have multiple difficulty settings that will solve the issue for both of us. I want a harder difficulty setting - and a LOT of people feel the same way. I get there are people that find these fights frustrating to no end and don't want the hassle.

I feel that Larian gives us all the tools we need to handle these encounters but this favors meticulous (possibly AR), highly focused people like myself and is a disadvantage to more casual players. This is actually in some ways no different than actual D&D where you will have DM's who like to up the challenge level for the players depending on skill level and creativity, and DM's who are far more casual and focus on the social aspect of the play session for more casual gamers. At the end of the day you won't make everyone happy.


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Blackheifer would make some good points, if they didn't continually feel the need to dip the beginning and ends of their posts in back-handed insinuation, belittling tone and condescension, or personal boasting. Maybe lay off with that?

Answering the complaint that a particular fight is unbalanced and unfair without abusing Larian's abusable cheese mechanics, by listing a whole bunch of things that you should considering bringing to the fight with excessive meta-knowledge, or more of said cheap mechanics isn't really that helpful... it mostly just reaffirms the point being made.

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1) The charm the beholder uses is a double-edged sword. It breaks on minor damage, so every time he releases one and you hit it there is a 50% chance they attack the beholder depending on who is closest. This further saturates the environment with targets for the beholder to go after besides yourself. It's sort of brilliant because its almost like the fight is designed to upend and randomize the action economy. You may own the action economy, or you may not.

This is a legitimate point - however it trades on the 'tactic' of "Hey, use YOUR turns to break charms and HOPE that you get LUCKY enough that the drow decide to attack the Spectator before you! (They might not, and even if they do they still consider you an enemy and will attack you during and after the fight with the spectator)"

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2) The Explosive plants that are littered through the battle area can be used to; damage the drow to release them from the charm or damage the beholder who often moves itself into a position near one. Just shoot them.

This is saying: You don't NEED to use Larian's cheap cheesy things... you can just use the terrain that's littered with an excess of explodable objects! This is like arguing that you don't need to drink water - you can just drink the naturally occurring H2O instead.

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3) There is a Spear you can find that deals additional damage to enemies with multiple eyes and has a chance to blind them. You may have found it by now if you dealt with the owlbear.

Legitimate point, although, I only tried using the spear on a spectator once or twice, and it truly didn't seem to have very much effect at all worth noting; blinding the spectator (when it worked) didn't really inhibit it much. It certainly didn't stop its eye rays. On a related point, I'm generally not a fan of "Here's this overtuned fight, but here is also a special magical maguffin that is only going to be useful in this fight that will make it better." It's a cheap, dull and utterly uninteresting story mechanic and even worse as a combat device.

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4) This is a good battle to bring in the Ogres if you managed to convince or bribe them to allow you to call them into battle since they will fight on your side.

Which is equivalent to saying "The fight is not overpowered for the party or too hard - you just have to bring along something even more overpowered to beat it with!" That's not strategy, it's a cop out. It's an admission that the fight IS overtuned. Also, once again, it's relying on coming into the fight and situation with foreknowledge of it.

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5) There is also the Spectator in a Bottle you can use for some funny spectator on spectator violence. of course you have to kill that spectator then as well. To be honest I only use this method if I want to randomize the action economy further and up the possible challenge level.

This one I did just for the fun of it... but in reality, both spectators treat you as an enemy, and are far more likely to target your party than each other.

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6) This is one of those encounters you want to save potions of speed for as well as Hill Giant strength, void bulbs and other explosive items. Invisibility pots can give you an edge allowing your strongest fighter to get close (lae'zel), pop a speed pot use the wyvern poison and then go to town on the spectator.

This is equivalent to saying "The fight isn't overtuned, you just have to metagame the hell out of it by saving a bunch of specific items specifically to use for it!" Again, no, that doesn't fly.

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7) Glut is also a huge help here, especially if you use him to Myconize a Deugar or a Minotaur. Duegar are easier to transplant.

This is the same as point 4, although I'll allow it a bit more leeway in terms of fairness, since Glut is more likely to be with you organically at this point, possibly. Unlikely still, considering but more likely than point 4.

Ultimately, they have not actually answered Ibrahim's question, either - they asked how they used the abilities of their party members intelligently to best the fight. None of THESE solutions have anything to do with using your actual party or their class abilities.... it's almost all external stuff that could be just as easily activated by moderately well-trained dog (#CompanionScratch):

1) Get other people to fight for you, you might get lucky!
2) Get other things to do damage for you, there's lots of them!
3) Use the maguffin that was conveniently designed for this fight!
4) Get another monster to fight for you, then kill it afterwards!
5) Get other monsters to fight for you!
6) Stockpile strong items (and explosives!) to use for this fight - like you know it's coming!
7) Get other monsters to fight for you!

NONE of those have anything to do with using your actual party and their actual class abilities strategically or intelligently.

If more than half of your suggestions involve getting other, stronger monsters to fight on your behalf, that rather sounds like a resounding admission that the fight is, in fact, overtuned.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Ultimately, they have not actually answered Ibrahim's question, either - they asked how they used the abilities of their party members intelligently to best the fight. None of THESE solutions have anything to do with using your actual party or their class abilities.... it's almost all external stuff that could be just as easily activated by moderately well-trained dog (#CompanionScratch):

I must have missed it when he provided me his party and class composition, could you link that information for me? make sure it contains his loadout plus available abilities.

Originally Posted by Niara
1) Get other people to fight for you, you might get lucky!
2) Get other things to do damage for you, there's lots of them!
3) Use the maguffin that was conveniently designed for this fight!
4) Get another monster to fight for you, then kill it afterwards!
5) Get other monsters to fight for you!
6) Stockpile strong items (and explosives!) to use for this fight - like you know it's coming!
7) Get other monsters to fight for you!

NONE of those have anything to do with using your actual party and their actual class abilities strategically or intelligently.

If more than half of your suggestions involve getting other, stronger monsters to fight on your behalf, that rather sounds like a resounding admission that the fight is, in fact, overtuned.

I categorically reject that D&D isn't about utilizing your surroundings to defeat the enemy. I'd also like to point out that the Spectator Fight is OPTIONAL. You can completely avoid that entire area. In fact MOST combat in the game is avoidable.

The overwhelming wrong assumption here is that you HAVE to fight this Spectator. This is the same person who insisted, despite all evidence to the contrary, that you HAD to fight the Duegar - and this was pointed out to them multiple times, by multiple people.

Even if you trigger the fight you can RUN AWAY.

I reject the idea that you don't have options in this game. I reject that using your environment, or running away, or avoiding encounters through dialogue are not CORE parts of D&D. Descent to Avernus, the actual D&D module that precedes these events has examples of ALL of that. There are mobs that will kill you that you need to run away from, there are evil creatures you have to make deals with or have good dialogue checks with, there are things in your environment you have to notice that will help you.

And using potions and buffs during combat isn't metagaming, you are just utilizing resources and being prepared. if you are going to poke around in a clearly dangerous place its reasonable to assume you should be prepared right?

and listen if you want Solasta then play Solasta, its a great game. It has its own limitations though.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 04/06/21 08:08 AM.

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To be honest, I didn't really find the Spectator fight that hard when I did it about six months ago. In fact, I was mildly surprised to learn that it was considered one of the hardest fights in the game, when I struggled to remember what the fight even was, with how people were describing it.

Then again, I was playing with the Bard mod, and my Bard/Wyll/Gale Shatter(ed) and Thunderwave'd the shit out of everything in that encounter, with Shadowheart throwing out Guiding Bolts too. I don't think the fight lasted longer than 3 rounds for me. Then again, one could chalk down my experience as 'ridiculous alpha strike'.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 04/06/21 07:58 AM.
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The point: ----------------------->
____________ you

You just missed it.
This isn't a "Give me tips to win fights"
This is "Most battles are at their core unbalanced since I'm supposed to abuse gimmick homebrewed systems to win them!"

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Originally Posted by Morfeu
The point: ----------------------->
____________ you

You just missed it.
This isn't a "Give me tips to win fights"
This is "Most battles are at their core unbalanced since I'm supposed to abuse gimmick homebrewed systems to win them!"

Right and I don't agree. Unfortunately with this kind of thing it's impossible to disagree and not provide examples of the tools available that can be used to win these fights.

So you can say nothing, and let the person rant or agree with them and get a pat on the head, or take the risk of disagreeing with them but not use any evidence to back it up.

And the Op's post was full of inaccuracies - they mischaracterized the fight as "unavoidable", claimed the Duegar could all cast "infinite Mirror Image" (not true only Ghek can cast it and only twice based on the two scrolls he is carrying which you can steal from him and prevent him from using) and didn't provide any concrete examples of how it was overpowered against what he had available.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I reject the idea that you don't have options in this game. I reject that using your environment, or running away, or avoiding encounters through dialogue are not CORE parts of D&D. Descent to Avernus, the actual D&D module that precedes these events has examples of ALL of that. There are mobs that will kill you that you need to run away from, there are evil creatures you have to make deals with or have good dialogue checks with, there are things in your environment you have to notice that will help you.

and listen if you want Solasta then play Solasta, its a great game. It has its own limitations though.

Nobody mentioned solasta, but since you bring it up, most of those options are also in that game. They are just better balanced, which is what OP and Niara would talking about, balance in BG3 not balance in any other game.

Seems widely off topic

Last edited by TestyMcTesterson; 04/06/21 08:35 AM.
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