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Originally Posted by Abits
Do we really need 2 topics about Larian's poor communication skill?

I think at this point I'll settle for people not flaming each other. Though contentious topics do unfortunately tend to encourage the wrong sort of, erm, "passionate" discourse.


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I just don't buy any of this. When we pay into an EA, it's an implied social contract that the devs and EA participants enter into. I don't care what the legalese says on a pop-up when you purchase. We are all effectively financial backers, with monetary stakes in the project, and in my opinion, morally deserve the courtesy of simple communication. I understand what you're saying Ragnarok, but this cynical take of yours is mental. And these topics are, in my mind, essential to the forums. What is the alternative? Sit in silence as Larian does whatever they want behind the curtain with our money? These topics are in place to show the developers that they are putting out a perception of detachment from their player-base. Sure, they can conduct themselves however they see fit. But those actions and decisions could and SHOULD have consequences. Good or bad. CURRENTLY, in my mind, Larian is putting off the perception that they really couldn't care less about you or me as financial backers of the project that inherently RELIES on us to be successful. These posts are in place in case Larian is simply ignorant of how they are being perceived. Because being ignorant can be corrected, but knowingly being silent, is something else entirely. So THAT'S why these posts are made.

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Originally Posted by DrDrizzyT
What is the alternative?
It occurs to me to express my disagreement decently, to condition it with arguments and, if possible, to avoid personal attacks ...
As the moderators sometimes recommend here. laugh

//edit:
Anyway, i would personaly ... to be compeltely honest ...
Wait at least until that last community update will be released, when we see what larian sees as "some detail about how we process & parse feedback and data we get through talking with you, and the telemetry we have in the game". smile

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 02/06/21 06:07 PM.

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Originally Posted by DrDrizzyT
We are all effectively financial backers, with monetary stakes in the project, and in my opinion, morally deserve the courtesy of simple communication.
No, you are a customer who pre-ordered the game, and got access to early build of the game to have a taste of the final product, provide telemetry and, if you so desire, provide feedback. You don't finance the game, nor have any control over it. You are not owner or investor of BG3 or Larian studios.

I understand, that EA games are done in various ways, and you might have bought in expecting a more live-service experience. A game with regular updates, and a roadmap to completion. I don't think it was ever promised to work like that for BG3, nor did Larian previous EA suggest such process. You get build, they gather data and feedback and continue working on the game. One can assumes that if there is something they want to test, they will add it to EA. And if they don't - then they won't. It sure would be nice to have more regular "crowdfunding" like updates, but it is not necessarly the most productive way of spending ones time - while frustrating now, none of it won't matter once 1.0 drops some time in distant future.

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I can see both sides to this, but I am erring on Ragnarok here on that we should at least wait for the community update and get their answer on how they are processing data and feedback. From there we should react accordingly. If they do something hollow and then we get another few months of radio silence, I will admit I will be irked, but for now I am giving them the benefit of the doubt with this update.

If they reveal that they have been lurking the forums (Here, Reddit, etc) and reading all of this and have noted what people have been saying, I will be very happy.

Last edited by CJMPinger; 02/06/21 07:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I can see both sides to this, but I am erring on Ragnarok here on that we should at least wait for the community update and get their answer on how they are processing data and feedback. From there we should react accordingly. If they do something hollow and then we get another few months of radio silence, I will admit I will be irked, but for now I am giving them the benefit of the doubt with this update.

If they reveal that they have been lurking the forums (Here, Reddit, etc) and reading all of this and have noted what people have been saying, I will be very happy.

Heck yeah, me too! That would be AWESOME! =)

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I can see both sides to this, but I am erring on Ragnarok here on that we should at least wait for the community update and get their answer on how they are processing data and feedback. From there we should react accordingly. If they do something hollow and then we get another few months of radio silence, I will admit I will be irked, but for now I am giving them the benefit of the doubt with this update.

If they reveal that they have been lurking the forums (Here, Reddit, etc) and reading all of this and have noted what people have been saying, I will be very happy.
I mean, that's what has basically been happening the past eight months. People have already waited for that community update... and waited.. and waited.

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Honestly…I bought the EA because:

- Cyperpunk 2077 was a massive letdown, and went from a great idea for an rpg to looter shooter with a leatherclad Keanu Reaves sidekick

- DA4 still a long way from being done…damn ye Bioware! Lemme play my warden again!!!!

- Bioware released ME Legendary edition (ugg) to capitalize off nostalgia and the rpg desert —- and I would sooner gnaw off my own foot than give that franchise another cent after MEA.

- I completed every bit of Ass Creed Vahalla out of sheer boredom…which was surprisingly ok because the male voice actor was amazing. But…I still kinda hate myself for supporting Ubisoft…the company that treats their customers like cash cows.

In summary…I was in a massive rpg funk.

Then…I saw a dev video where some very uncomfortable looking blond dude was wearing full plate mail that was obviously choking him. Yet he endured and spoke with such joyful enthusiasm about the game his team was working on that It made me smile and remember why I love rpgs.

So, thought I would go ahead and get the EA of BG3. I did not even know feedback was part of it. I just wanted to watch it all come to life in real time and get into something new in the DnD universe.

Not having expectations beyond some gaming fun means I have no expectations regarding how the company should keep me updated (or not). No idea if that puts me in the majority or minority tho.

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People are getting more and more frustrated by the lack of communication, and it's hurting the game and the EA process. Surely, Larian must be able to see that as well?

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I think the main communication lapse from Larian was in the beginning, day 1, when they should have done a much more thorough job of explaining what the EA is and what it isn't. Of course, not even that would have helped in some cases--I read one post by someone who was mad because he bought the game without bothering to read that it was the EA version, and only part of the game, a fraction of the full game, would become evident during the entire course of the EA. He's been looking for more content in the game--that isn't coming during the EA. Someone else neglected to read the part about the full game being at least a year away from shipping. Etc.

But I don't much understand about Larian providing feedback to everyone who makes a suggestion. That's unworkable. Programmer would spend all of his programming time patting people on the back for suggestions instead of working on the full game. I've made several suggestions and not a single one of them has prompted a response from the programming team, but then that was not what I was looking for. I saw some things I had commented on a few times actually make it into the EA game itself--and *that* is the kind of feedback I want to see from Larian! Last thing I need to see is Jess saying: "Hey, Kudos to WaltC for suggesting some things we've implemented!" etc. I don't care about being answered individually at all. My comments are intended to try and make the game better by pointing out what I consider to be weak spots in the game as it is being made (from my perspective.)

That's another thing--this is Larian's game. It's not a "Hey gang, tell us how to make BG3" game, because they have a fairly ingrained, rough idea of exactly where they want this game to go, and my only interest is in helping them get there insofar as it is possible in Chapter 1. So I look at the EA as helping Larian make the game it wants to make--I've no interest in them making the game I want to make because chances are it wouldn't be as good as what they will do with BG3. So I'll continue to look at what they're doing in Chapter 1 and point out any improvements I think would benefit their game, but I have no illusions that everything I suggest will be integrated--it won't be. And that's because for some things they simply will have better ideas in mind than mine--things I hadn't even thought about and so on.

I think the biggest angst people have about the EA is that they thought they were buying into an EA spanning the entire game. But I knew what I was buying when I bought it and so I have no disappointments, no crosses to bear, and no malice to impart...;) I've said it before, but I think this game could do for Larian what the Witcher 3 did for CDPR--if not more. It has the potential to be a really great game and my mind is completely open to whatever Larian wants to surprise and entertain me with in the final game! I believe strongly that having preconceived notions as to what a game should be ruins that game (any game) for the people who have such inflexible notions, more often than not.


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Originally Posted by Waltc
But I don't much understand about Larian providing feedback to everyone who makes a suggestion. That's unworkable. Programmer would spend all of his programming time patting people on the back for suggestions instead of working on the full game. I've made several suggestions and not a single one of them has prompted a response from the programming team, but then that was not what I was looking for. I saw some things I had commented on a few times actually make it into the EA game itself--and *that* is the kind of feedback I want to see from Larian! Last thing I need to see is Jess saying: "Hey, Kudos to WaltC for suggesting some things we've implemented!" etc. I don't care about being answered individually at all. My comments are intended to try and make the game better by pointing out what I consider to be weak spots in the game as it is being made (from my perspective.)
This is going dangerously close to a full strawman now.
That's not how interaction with your user base is supposed to work. No one is expecting or demanding to have an open, direct ongoing dialogue with every Larian employee.

But let's not pretend there's no middle ground between "We'll answer each one of you personally commenting on every single suggestion" and "We aren't going to say fuck all about what we are doing, not even in the vaguest terms and especially not even when ACTUALLY publishing one of of our incredibly sparse community updates. Oh, and that issue virtually everyone and their granma is complaining about? We'll pretend it doesn't even exist".

Last edited by Tuco; 03/06/21 07:41 PM.

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I agree with the criticisms of Larian's near non-communication. Would have loved a stickied thread with general feedback on the feedback, perhaps even specifically addressing the main criticisms & suggestions. But clearly, the days when developers (and Larian is far from unique in this) cared about their own communities beyond as a source of hype and revenue is long gone.

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This is a highly subjective point of contention. Look at the Dragon Age series; 3 entirely different games from Bioware within the span of just 5 years. It's been 20 odd years since BG2 and Larian is a different developer. Major mechanical changes should not only be expected, they should be welcomed. Seems to me BG3 is a Baldur's Gate game when it comes to narration, story and companion interaction. The origin-system makes the player character much more generic than the power fantasy of the original series though. I would argue it's less faithful to D&D than it is to BG - and needlessly blundering so.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Major mechanical changes should not only be expected, they should be welcomed.
I don't see why unless they are clear improvements.


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Originally Posted by Waltc
I think the main communication lapse from Larian was in the beginning, day 1, when they should have done a much more thorough job of explaining what the EA is and what it isn't. Of course, not even that would have helped in some cases--I read one post by someone who was mad because he bought the game without bothering to read that it was the EA version, and only part of the game, a fraction of the full game, would become evident during the entire course of the EA. He's been looking for more content in the game--that isn't coming during the EA. Someone else neglected to read the part about the full game being at least a year away from shipping.....

Great post (just didn't want to quote the whole thing), though I will say even on their best day, they will NEVER match Witcher 3. That game is just too epic, and Larian is not that type of studio. I think it will be an entertaining RPG when finished, but W3 is a high bar to get over.

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Originally Posted by Waltc
I think the main communication lapse from Larian was in the beginning, day 1, when they should have done a much more thorough job of explaining what the EA is and what it isn't. Of course, not even that would have helped in some cases--I read one post by someone who was mad because he bought the game without bothering to read that it was the EA version, and only part of the game, a fraction of the full game, would become evident during the entire course of the EA. He's been looking for more content in the game--that isn't coming during the EA. Someone else neglected to read the part about the full game being at least a year away from shipping. Etc.


I think the biggest angst people have about the EA is that they thought they were buying into an EA spanning the entire game. But I knew what I was buying when I bought it and so I have no disappointments, no crosses to bear, and no malice to impart...;) I've said it before, but I think this game could do for Larian what the Witcher 3 did for CDPR--if not more. It has the potential to be a really great game and my mind is completely open to whatever Larian wants to surprise and entertain me with in the final game! I believe strongly that having preconceived notions as to what a game should be ruins that game (any game) for the people who have such inflexible notions, more often than not.

Well honestly it's been in EA for over 6 months now with barely an update to the community - yes some things have been fixed, there has been an occassional positive surprise among those too (pacifist options for example). But too keep a fairly large community interested during all this time one would expect at least some updates to the content as well. Not even Chapter 1 is complete yet and I personally cannot see a valid reason for not releasing the content that is (or was not sure about current situation and honestly I CBA to check) accessible via exploits at launch.

Also I do believe the full release deadline should have been set by now. And let's not get into COVID excuses - they do not exactly work in healthcare now do they?

If they actually want us to keep replaying the EA, they should motivate us to do so and no replaying the same thing over and over with new skin tone is not really my idea of fun. If they don't want us to keep replaying than why release the EA at all?

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Originally Posted by Azarielle
Also I do believe the full release deadline should have been set by now.

no, absolutely not. we have seen too many games lately that failed spectacularily because some arbitrary deadline was set to please fans, but the development team needed more time, and then the game sucked.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Azarielle
Also I do believe the full release deadline should have been set by now.

no, absolutely not. we have seen too many games lately that failed spectacularily because some arbitrary deadline was set to please fans, but the development team needed more time, and then the game sucked.

I'm guessing you're referencing Cyberpunk? Maybe I was lucky but my playthrough has been fairly smooth in stark contrast to overwhelming criticism. Was it all everyone was hoping it to be? No, but Witcher 3 was also extremely plagued at the release and yet it has become one of the best games ever made in time. Let's also remember Cyberpunk was set for release and eventually released at the peak of the pandemic and neither of the two mentioned games ever had an EA, which should really help in making the game playable at release (That's kinda the whole point, no?)

If you ask me I'd rather have a plagued as hell full release than not even a light at the end of the tunnel.

At this rate GRRM might release Winds of Winter before we ever see full release of BG3

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Originally Posted by Azarielle
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Azarielle
Also I do believe the full release deadline should have been set by now.

no, absolutely not. we have seen too many games lately that failed spectacularily because some arbitrary deadline was set to please fans, but the development team needed more time, and then the game sucked.

I'm guessing you're referencing Cyberpunk? Maybe I was lucky but my playthrough has been fairly smooth in stark contrast to overwhelming criticism. Was it all everyone was hoping it to be? No, but Witcher 3 was also extremely plagued at the release and yet it has become one of the best games ever made in time. Let's also remember Cyberpunk was set for release and eventually released at the peak of the pandemic and neither of the two mentioned games ever had an EA, which should really help in making the game playable at release (That's kinda the whole point, no?)

If you ask me I'd rather have a plagued as hell full release than not even a light at the end of the tunnel.

At this rate GRRM might release Winds of Winter before we ever see full release of BG3

Well then we obviously have vastly different opinions. I don't think there is a point in arguing about this.

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I'm not sure why people seem worried about BG3 "being late" or "releasing at all". That's not their current problem at all.
They are probably doing just fine on that front. At worst the game will take few more months and that's it.

As I said more than once I'd be fairly more worried about WHAT they are planning to release exactly rather then when. And most of the things that could be addressed to make the game better arguably are not even particularly time consuming.
The main requirement would be Larian taking a clear decision on what they want to do with the core mechanics.


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Originally Posted by Azarielle
At this rate GRRM might release Winds of Winter before we ever see full release of BG3

I'll take that bet! I've been reading the series since the beginning - when I was a freshman in college back in '96 - and I am pretty resigned to the fact that GRRM will die and somebody else will have to collect all his notes and finish his work for him.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to shoo some kids off my lawn..*grumble*

Last edited by Blackheifer; 04/06/21 11:26 AM.

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