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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Addressed in the very first page of the thread (and several times before in the past):

Originally Posted by Tuco
it was a very simple limitation to work around in the end: "Freeze the clock for everyone when one of the players is in turn based mode. Make it march again when all the players are in real time".
I mean, the limitation that everyone needs to agree for a long rest (and that no one can be in combat) was already in place, anyway. So it's not like that was going to make a big difference.
Sure, the length of the day (or night) may extend a bit even for the player that was in "real time all the time". But so what?

Sure, Tuco, but that just sounds like making TB apply to all players when one player enters TB, which I noted was an option, but that I don't think Larian want to do that.

I don't play MP myself, so I don't know what is/isn't cool in MP; but I got the impression from others that the way DOS2 implemented MP ( independent player time-streams ) was a major point of satisfaction for the game, which Larian are therefore reluctant to change.

I suppose a partial solution that doesn't completely destroy their existing co-op flexibility might be to have a D/N flip similar to BG2, where players are only "frozen" when they pesonally have run out of day or night, and must wait for the others to catch up with their time stream. It wouldn't be problem-free, but might be less restrictive than every player entering TB whenever one player does.

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Originally Posted by etonbears
Sure, Tuco, but that just sounds like making TB apply to all players when one player enters TB

Nah? It's the exact contrary of it. I said that when a player enters turn-based mode you stop the CLOCK in the background, the one deciding how long a day (or night) is supposed to last. I never said you stop the real-time flow for everyone.

Here's a practical example since for some reason you seem to be confused about it:

Let's say a day is supposed to last two hours in real time and a night other two hours.

- One player enters-turn based mode five minutes before dawn, when the night was already at 1 hour and 55 minutes of its "natural course".
- The clock for that player will obviously stop (otherwise he would experience transitions betweeen night and day while frozen in turn-based combat).
- The other players stay in real-time (at least until they get into combat as well)...
- ..but the "hidden clock" of the game stops its timer for the other players as well, keeping everything in sync.
- five minutes later the first player will go out of combat.
- five more minutes later the night will end. For the first player it would have lasted 2 hours, plus five minutes of turn based combat.
- for the other players, the night will have lasted 2 and 5 minutes of real time.
- There's a slight discrepance in the fact that for the other(s) player(s) the night "lasted few minutes of real-time more", but then again... So fucking what?

Last edited by Tuco; 04/06/21 08:35 PM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by etonbears
Sure, Tuco, but that just sounds like making TB apply to all players when one player enters TB
Nah? It's the exact contrary of it. I said that when a player enters turn-based mode you stop the CLOCK in the background, the one deciding how long a day (or night) is supposed to last. I never said you stop the real-time flow for everyone.

Oh, right, I misunderstood. Yes, that sounds like it would work without really affecting the MP flexibility. So that's one less reason for not adding D/N.

So that just leaves player popularity and engine limitations as excuses smile

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I'm not sure if player popularity would work in their favor as an argument.
I mean, imagine if they made a survey asking if people wanted it or not. How would you expect it to go, in all honesty?


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I think you'd get something along the lines of 50-40-10 Yes/Don't Care/No

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it would be more like "Do you want more SEXY SEXY and MEMES!! or a day/night cycle (BORING)"

and yes, people would choose SEXY SEXY smile

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Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
I think you'd get something along the lines of 50-40-10 Yes/Don't Care/No

My estimate would be 30-60-10. I mean I would like to see a day/night cycle, but don't care either way. Considering the small amount of games that actually have it, most would not miss it, and see it as an "oh cool" kind of thing.

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I think that unless they would put it as a loaded question in some form it would probably be closer to 75-10-15, with a more detailed breakdown that would look something like:

- YES for several degree of "Fuck yes" and "Sounds cool".
- DON'T CARE mostly consisting of "I don't really understand what that means. LOL dunno, who cares then".
- And most of the NO being a mix of "I was traumatized by the dark closet in my room as a kid so I'm afraid of the night" (vast minority) and a bunch of tossers sticking to the "Nu-uh" only because "Larian said it would be difficult for them and I don't want them to overwork". Basically they already made fools of themselves in the past and so they would feel invested in sticking to the same narrative for the sake of consistency.


Jokes aside, it would be somewhat unfair since it's the type of feature that panders a lot even to casuals and doesn't demand any understanding of the implications to sound desirable.

A more honest and engaging question would be if Larian asked "Would you give up on [EXTRA FEATURE X] to get a a cycle of night and day?". At that point it would depend a lot on what they offered as counterpoint.

Last edited by Tuco; 04/06/21 10:45 PM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I think that *unless they would put it as a loaded question* in some form it would probably be closer to 75-10-15

Based on the tones of their community updates I wouldn't put much hope in this theoretical poll NOT being loaded as heck :P

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I'm not sure if player popularity would work in their favor as an argument.
I mean, imagine if they made a survey asking if people wanted it or not. How would you expect it to go, in all honesty?

In all honesty, I don't have a clue. If you asked the question flat "shall we add feature X", you will usually get a positive response. If you highlight tradeoffs, then maybe not.

Larian and Bioware ( and probably others ) seem to use exclusively event-driven games design, presumably in order to improve control over the overall narrative ( if you consider "linear story-driven" and "open-world" to be the extremes of narrative control ). I don't know whether any developer has publicly explained this choice ( or the data used to make the choice ), so my assumption has always been that financial return is the main driver.

Personally I prefer realistic open worlds with plausible behaviour and character interactions, but as a software engineer myself, I know that the ability to realise this with current techniques and hardware is limited. It's much easier to develop improved visuals to make things look shiny than to construct a better conversation algorithm, or a plausible information diffusion mechanism; so better visuals get the attention.

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The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 05/06/21 01:41 AM.
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It's the shitty subreddit and the very first post in the thread is someone rushing to tell anyone that "the devs don't want to do it".
And these people would bend over backward to please Larian no matter what. They are exactly the ones I was referring about in my last reply here.

But be assured that if Swen Vincke went on record saying "We decided we actually want this feature because you'd need to be a completely idiot to dislike it" two hours later they'd be patting each other on the back for not being idiots and totally wanting it.

The only reason that the right option even got the majority is because it's simply too appealing compared to the alternative, despise their bias.

Last edited by Tuco; 05/06/21 01:53 AM.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

I think people are saying no maybe because dos2 didnt have it

but yeah we need D/N cycles

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

Weather effects generally don't inhibit play ( i.e. they are just visual ), so it is difficult to see why anyone would actively dislike that unless they just want to always see happy, sunny vistas all the time ( for mental health reasons, perhaps ).

D/N cycle isn't always so obviously a good thing for everyone:
- If the cycle brings no obvious game interest ( i.e. it's just visual ), it can be annoying to not be able to see properly at night.
- If there are too many activities tied to time of day or night it can be annoying even when there is a wait/sleep feature available.
- If the cycle time is too fast or slow, it can be annoying if it detracts from immersion.
- It can be annoying for players that just want a static environment ( for whatever reason ).

All recent Bethesda single-player games have D/N cycles, whereas all recent Bioware single-player games do not. Most people probably play them without often thinking much about the D/N aspect, because it is not particularly important to the design philosophy of either set of games. But, a badly thought-out and badly implemented D/N cycle is probably worse for some people than not having the cycle at all.

Personally, I do prefer to be reminded that time is passing in the game world in some way, and I think BG3 will be considered a lesser game if there is no mechanism to achieve that.

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There's also the fact that day/night alternation and the general notion of passing time have always played a meaningful role in D&D.
Not just because you can meet different creatures at night, but even more specifically in terms of resource management and so on.

I mean, there's a reason if "short and long rest" are even two distinct options in the first place.


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Originally Posted by teclis23
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

I think people are saying no maybe because dos2 didnt have it

but yeah we need D/N cycles
When I remind people on that subreddit that DOS2 is not a D&D game I get downvoted.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
[
When I remind people on that subreddit that DOS2 is not a D&D game I get downvoted.
Yep. That sounds like the subreddit I know.


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Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

Weather effects generally don't inhibit play ( i.e. they are just visual ), so it is difficult to see why anyone would actively dislike that unless they just want to always see happy, sunny vistas all the time ( for mental health reasons, perhaps ).

Way back in the olden days, I turned off weather because it adversely affected the way my 3/486 computers, you know, those PCs that had less HDD space than most modern rigs have RAM, ran the games that had it. It eventually became force of habit, even when it didn't affect my PC's performance.

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D/N cycle isn't always so obviously a good thing for everyone:
- If the cycle brings no obvious game interest ( i.e. it's just visual ), it can be annoying to not be able to see properly at night.
- If there are too many activities tied to time of day or night it can be annoying even when there is a wait/sleep feature available.
- If the cycle time is too fast or slow, it can be annoying if it detracts from immersion.
- It can be annoying for players that just want a static environment ( for whatever reason ).

All recent Bethesda single-player games have D/N cycles, whereas all recent Bioware single-player games do not. Most people probably play them without often thinking much about the D/N aspect, because it is not particularly important to the design philosophy of either set of games. But, a badly thought-out and badly implemented D/N cycle is probably worse for some people than not having the cycle at all.

Personally, I do prefer to be reminded that time is passing in the game world in some way, and I think BG3 will be considered a lesser game if there is no mechanism to achieve that.

DA 2 let you toggle D/N on the map, while you were quick traveling between locations, with different things happening in each time frame. I've read the argument that it wouldn't matter if the NPCs didn't have appropriate schedules, but I'm going to call foul on that argument, because I've actually seen complaints about the lack of these schedules, and how it makes the game feel "lifeless". W/out a schedule, day or night, that merchant is going to be standing in the same spot, no matter when the player stops by. Some people find that jolting too. I don't care either way, it's not going to destroy my enjoyment of the game if it has it, or not.

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The overwhelming majority of games going for a day/night cycle actually does it without offering any complex variation on NPC scheduling. The two previous BG included.
And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely.
This is especially true in games where the content is designed rather than "systemic" (i.e. procedural generation and so on).

If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

As I recall Ultima V - Warriors of Destiny, which was published in 1988 had the first day night cycles with NPC schedules - that I can recall. But I agree Ultima VII was the absolute best game at the time.

Sadly EA purchased Origin Systems and the technology was lost after that, and we have not seen its like since. Probably in a vault somewhere in the depths of EA. /s

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