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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
When I first played POE, I found that it has a bad habit of dumping TONS of exposition on you at various points of the game, instead of the 'show, don't tell' approach that DAO utilizes in comparison. The party members are nowhere near as charismatic as DAO's companions too, which is probably a huge but rarely talked about factor in DAO's popularity.

The pacing is also kinda weird. The game really kicks your ass at the start and doesn't really explain its systems very well. I actually almost missed Eder by the tree too, the start became a lot easier once I had him around to tank things. I liked the game for what it was, but it was pretty easy for me to see why it left people rather disappointed.

Hmm, I never felt that way about the exposition dumping. Nor did I really feel like DA:O made a particularly good example of "show, don't tell."

One of the many reasons that I liked PoE was because the characters felt like they weren't around just to... Follow me around (*ahem* Alistair...). I do not remember getting my butt kicked in the beginning either - which is VERY ironic considering I spent the first 3-5 hours in DA:O being absolutely smashed by both the tutorial and the first set of bandits in the very first area... ... ... Yeah, I don't know either. My brother was just as clueless about wtf happened there.

Regarding companions, I thought the individual companions you had in PoE was definitely the best bunch I've ever had and loved each and every one of them for their own oddities. laugh <3 I loved Aloth's ... Condition? And his overall subtle snarky attitude :'] I loved the genuine sense of Edér. I loved Kana Rua and his rather unusual commentary. I absolutely adored Durance and I was devastated I couldn't ask whatever happened about him in PoE2. I loved the story quest of Sagani with it's ... Grim plot twist at the end. I thought grieving mother made for a fantastic character, despite severely disliking many of her personality attributes. Hiravias was easily one of my favorites through-out the entire game! Pallegina had me stunned with her unique beauty features (feathers = Dez approves), and although I found her personality rather... Erm, yeah (especially in PoE2...), I absolutely felt like it made sense for her character (... At least in PoE1). In short - I loved all of them and I played all of their stories! <3

AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE MUUUUSIC <3 Oh man, I still listen to everything from the combat to inn music almost daily from PoE.


Originally Posted by Tuco
I like POE 2 more than POE 1, actually.
Once again, more on the mechanical side than in terms of story and characters because in that sense... I just didn't care that much for either of the two.

Hmm... Fair. I loved the mechanical part of PoE2 because I tried Arcane Archer for the first time in my entire life, and now I am kind of devastated that BG3 won't have it... q _ q *ree*


Originally Posted by Danielbda
Simply because PoE is not an AAA game. But it was a hit considering its budget and sold well over 1 million copies.

:[ I think it was an amazing masterpiece, the first game that is. The second game was also pretty solid (one of my favorites for sure!) but I encountered a lot of issues there that I did not experience in the first game.

Alas, I am sad that PoE2 did not sell as well as they hoped so that the team got kinda bummed out. :[ Hoping that Avowed will turn out well so that they perhaps get motivated to give PoE3 a go. c: (BUT NOT AS AN FPS GAME PLEASE q _ q )

Last edited by Dez; 17/06/21 09:50 PM.

Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
Dez #777298 17/06/21 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dez
... I must ask - and please do not take this the wrong way but...

Why are people so very fond of DA:O, but PoE is hardly ever mentioned as the absolutely amazing game that at least I thought it was? :x PoE made it to my favorite game of *all time* - I simply adored pretty much everything; from combat, to (most of the) story, to characters, to setting to... Everything(?) About it and I don't even have any nostalgia tied to it as I played it during winter 2020-2021. :'D PoE2 was pretty good too, but not as good imo.


I am just genuinely curious, what about PoE makes it not quite reach games like DA:O amongst the community?
I think it's because for a lot of people Dragonage was their first 'proper' rpg game (god I feel old saying that) and was made by Bioware. PoE had good names in it, but it was a 'new' studio, so it was fairly obscure?
I think broadly there's the 'older' generation like myself that grew up playing Baldur's Gate I and II and a 'newer' generation that grew up on Dragonage and/or perhaps KOTOR, so they have different standards, hopes and expecations for the game.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I'm not shy about it either.
If you have any question feel free to ask.
Haha, no, I was just agreeing with you. I have a special, personal dislike towards Dragon Age: Origins. My first earned money spent, big disappointment and first introduction to day1 DLC. I thought the game was just ok, but I really, really, really don't like it smile

Last edited by Wormerine; 17/06/21 10:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by Abits
[quote=Merry Mayhem]

I think the most important part is the bottom line - although it will probably be a good game, I doubt it will be anything more than a nice game you get on sale from steam. Nowhere close to the legend people hoped for.

I wonder what you consider to be a legendary game then.
When he says legendary game he is probably referring to the original BG trilogy. If so, I do agree that current BG3 does not hold up to it.

Well, the funny thing is that I would understand if he compared BG 3 to Witcher 3 for example. But BG 1 and 2 are grossly overestimated due to nostalgia. Especially BG 1 which was good in 1998, but is a very mediocre game today. BG 2 was nice, but saying that BG 3 doesn't hold up to it is nonsense. The world feels much more alive, there is more variety in social interactions, story is much more interesting, graphics are obviously better, etc.

Ask a tank enthusiast about legendary tanks and they will mention some WW2 era tanks. Even though they are practically useless today. Same with cars, etc.

If a game gets a sequel after 20 years and creates hype, you know it is not an ordinary game. (Though I realize some of the hype comes from Larian itself, but I don't think people would be hyped if Larian made a sequel to Icewind Dale)

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Most of what makes BG2 an "outdated game" today comes from its technical limitations (low resolution, extremely low refresh rate, etc).

If we could get the same exact game with current tech, its core design would hold up incredibly well. And its UI as well, surprisingly enough.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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There is also a reason why Isometric RPGs never truly faded away, even with many franchises going to other things like First person or dying, new franchises have risen like POE or even returned (kinda) with how Wasteland 2 and 3 came out. Mechanically, the genre is considered very sound and couple that with good writing and players tend to get hooked. Heck, people still play Fallout 1 and 2 A LOT.
And to that, BG1+2, even considered old, never really faded from gaming culture as far as I can tell. And have stayed relevant enough to get Enhanced Editions with active updates years later, and even other DND games like Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have gotten console ports.
Also I don't have Nostalgia for BG1 or 2, compared to many here I have only played them recently and despite knowing of them I did not grow up with them because I didn't have them. Same for Fallout 1 and 2 (though I did play some of Tactics when I was younger). I and I assume others talk well about these games not because Nostalgia clouds vision (though for some it perhaps does), but because they are very good games that have aged very well and still play well even by modern standards.

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BG3's world more alive than in BG1/2 ? Really ?
I can't deny that BG3 is way more beautifull but the world doesn't feel (more) alive at all lol.

It's always sunny. Everyone is waiting for you. The map is divided in area pasted together. The goblins are living so much that they cannot find the grove. Nothing special or unexpected ever happen (Random encounter or new creatures/characters after a while), there's a forest full of nothing alive, surfaces never dissapear,...

The world is completely frozen... What gives (some of) you the feeling that it's alive ??? I'd really like to understand.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/06/21 09:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
BG3's world more alive than in BG1/2 ? Really ?
I can't deny that BG3 is way more beautifull but the world doesn't feel (more) alive at all lol.

It's always sunny. Everyone is waiting for you. The map is divided in area pasted together. The goblins are living so much that they cannot find the grove. Nothing special or unexpected ever happen (Random encounter or new creatures/characters after a while), there's a forest full of nothing alive, surfaces never dissapear,...

The world is completely frozen... What gives (some of) you the feeling that it's alive ??? I'd really like to understand.

I know right? Most people saying that never even played BG2. It feels so much more alive and DYNAMIC compared to BG3. Really Ironic.
For example events/quests happening only at night, weather; rain/wind/thunder, amazing background sound effects depending on your area, party banters tied to game environments; or banters triggered by just commoner dialogues, interaction/dialogues with in-game items (caged mute bird, genie bottle, young lady trapped in a magical scroll, talking sword....). Even Dragon Age feels half baked.
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Last edited by mr_planescapist; 18/06/21 12:57 PM.
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I agree with you, but also realize that we haven't been to any urban area yet, we could be judging BG:3 based on what amounts to the walk from Candlekeep to the Friendly Arm Inn. (I mostly bring this up because all your screenshots look like they're from Amn)

As for party banter, I'd like to believe that most of that hasn't "come online" yet. And will become more extensive as we narratively become more of a team.

The sound design BG 1 2 and Icewind Dale (and Sigil!) was boss, BG:3 needs to really step up there to compete.

Last edited by Sozz; 18/06/21 03:35 PM. Reason: soft or hard 'g'?
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
I know right? Most people saying that never even played BG2. It feels so much more alive and DYNAMIC compared to BG3. Really Ironic.
For example events/quests happening only at night, weather; rain/wind/thunder, amazing background sound effects depending on your area, party banters tied to game environments; or banters triggered by just commoner dialogues, interaction/dialogues with in-game items (caged mute bird, genie bottle, young lady trapped in a magical scroll, talking sword....).

Dynamic? Yes. Alive? Only if you use your imagination. In BG2 NPCs literally just stand doing nothing, they go away at night, and return to their spot to just stand there in one place and that's it. There are no animations or sophisticated routines in BG2, it's literally just about placing NPCs in 2 different spots for 2 different time periods. At most they can walk, but they never can work or do anything complex. BG3 world for me is much more alive, because of how NPCs behave, even if they feel frozen in one day.

Day/Night cycle is really important for true open world RPGs like Elder Scroll series, but for linear story-heavy RPGs like BGs it is, ofcourse, nice, but doesnt matter that much.

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This reminds me of when Bethesda was hyping up how their NPCs would operate using dynamic behavioral routines....so life like...

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
In BG2 NPCs literally just stand doing nothing, they go away at night, and return to their spot to just stand there in one place and that's it.

And what is it in BG3 ? They just don't move at all except a very very few of them "patrolling".

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/06/21 03:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
In BG2 NPCs literally just stand doing nothing, they go away at night, and return to their spot to just stand there in one place and that's it.

And what is it in BG3 ? They just don't move at all except a very very few of them "patrolling".
Remember, you're trying to explain how great BG2 is to someone who concludes that the game is "grossly overestimated due to nostalgia", and that saying BG3 doesn't hold up to BG2 is nonsense, and "the world feels much more alive, there is more variety in social interactions, story is much more interesting" - all that after playing the *early access* of *only the first act* of BG3. Your chances of success are about the same as when someone tries to convince me that I'm grossly overestimating BG2 due to nostalgia.


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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Dynamic? Yes. Alive? Only if you use your imagination.
I thought the whole point of playing RPGs was to use our imagination.

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I wonder how "incredibly great iconic masterpiece" was BG 1&2 more than year before release ...

My money would go for: Not much. laugh


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Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Well, the funny thing is that I would understand if he compared BG 3 to Witcher 3 for example. But BG 1 and 2 are grossly overestimated due to nostalgia. Especially BG 1 which was good in 1998, but is a very mediocre game today. BG 2 was nice, but saying that BG 3 doesn't hold up to it is nonsense. The world feels much more alive, there is more variety in social interactions, story is much more interesting, graphics are obviously better, etc.
I suppose it depends on what you rate in games. For me graphics aren't a boon in themselves. BG1&2 don't NEED better graphics - they pulled off all they attempted to pull off. Throughout the years I easily got new players hooked on BG2 - it's a superb game and a classic. The fact that games are dated, don't diminish their value. Thief, Thief2 and Systemshock2 are still best games in business - and that I can say without nostalgia googles, as I played both of them not too long ago for the first time. There is adjustment period, and they are dated, but they are still really really good. Same Deus Ex1. And I am confident I would fall in love with BG2 in the same way, would I play it today, as I did in mid 2000s. I am not allergic to retro play - as I didn't grew up with access to shiny new hardware I am well accustommed to digging for classic gems then gushing at the newest, shiniest toy. And unfortunately, new shiny toys tend to loose their appeal once they are not new anymore. Good games stay good forever.

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Do we need to start a thread about how much better the prequels are than the original trilogy?

Last edited by Sozz; 18/06/21 07:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
BG3's world more alive than in BG1/2 ? Really ?
I can't deny that BG3 is way more beautifull but the world doesn't feel (more) alive at all lol.

It's always sunny. Everyone is waiting for you. The map is divided in area pasted together. The goblins are living so much that they cannot find the grove. Nothing special or unexpected ever happen (Random encounter or new creatures/characters after a while), there's a forest full of nothing alive, surfaces never dissapear,...

The world is completely frozen... What gives (some of) you the feeling that it's alive ??? I'd really like to understand.

I know right? Most people saying that never even played BG2. It feels so much more alive and DYNAMIC compared to BG3. Really Ironic.
For example events/quests happening only at night, weather; rain/wind/thunder, amazing background sound effects depending on your area, party banters tied to game environments; or banters triggered by just commoner dialogues, interaction/dialogues with in-game items (caged mute bird, genie bottle, young lady trapped in a magical scroll, talking sword....). Even Dragon Age feels half baked.
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THIS. Exactly THIS is the reason I replay the game until this day. 20 years has passed and for some reason really few studios understood why BG2 was so good. Ironically the small studios do a better job than the big ones at this. Maybe because it's easier to keep it consistent when you're a small company? Idk. RISEN 2 for instance was insane from this aspect smile Like the game was super small in the end and you didnd't have multiple companions to choose from. But the girl following you around was reacting to your actions and what was going around in her own way. She had her own goals and that's what motivated her words. It's a simple concept.

BG3 characters in comparison are inconsistent AF. In BG2 you could relatively easily have a team full of evil and good characters without anyone leaving despite hating each other. They would explain why they are still here. And it made sense.
The evil characters in BG3 feel sassy like hell for some reason. Maybe it's because they talk mostly in camp and not when the events happen. Probably because of it btw. Eh. Idk. I just hope they somehow magically fix it and all of a sudden we will have the same level of interaction with our team as we did in BG2. It's not that hard. You don't need a cinematic everytime Astarion tells you why he's not a fan of your actions. Just make him speak goddamit.


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Originally Posted by virion
[...] somehow magically [...] not that hard
If it takes magic to fix it...

It literally would take magic to get "the same level of interaction with our team as we did in BG2" from RPGs nowadays. It's a fantasy.

Remember the beggars around the Slum District in BG2? If you talk to them, sometimes one of your party members would butt in with a remark. After playing BG2 on and off for 10+ years I discovered a rather amusing exchange between Nalia and Valygar that is only triggered when you have both of them in the party and when you talk to one of those beggars.

Remember in BG1 and 2 sometimes a pair of companions who hate each other would argue randomly and eventually become unselectable and fight each other until one is dead? Well, there was this one time when Dynaheir and Edwin decided it was time to settle it once and for all, I watched them throw spells they had available at each other, and in the end, their last spells killed each other at the same time - Edwin using Magic Missile and Dynaheir using Melf's Acid Arrow. I thought this was such a perfect ending. And there was this fight in BG2 between Viconia and Keldorn that broke out right after the Asylum maze. Of course Keldorn was too strong for Viconia. He almost killed her, but then Viconia freaked out and ran away. The funny thing was, they were fighting next to the exit point of that area, and her "panic AI" made her go through this area transition point and escape to the next area. This broke their combat state and neither of them ever talked about it again afterward. Fun times.

I can never forget those moments and up to this day I have yet to find moments equally funny and amusing from any other game.


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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Originally Posted by virion
[...] somehow magically [...] not that hard
If it takes magic to fix it...

It literally would take magic to get "the same level of interaction with our team as we did in BG2" from RPGs nowadays. It's a fantasy.

Remember the beggars around the Slum District in BG2? If you talk to them, sometimes one of your party members would butt in with a remark. After playing BG2 on and off for 10+ years I discovered a rather amusing exchange between Nalia and Valygar that is only triggered when you have both of them in the party and when you talk to one of those beggars.

Remember in BG1 and 2 sometimes a pair of companions who hate each other would argue randomly and eventually become unselectable and fight each other until one is dead? Well, there was this one time when Dynaheir and Edwin decided it was time to settle it once and for all, I watched them throw spells they had available at each other, and in the end, their last spells killed each other at the same time - Edwin using Magic Missile and Dynaheir using Melf's Acid Arrow. I thought this was such a perfect ending. And there was this fight in BG2 between Viconia and Keldorn that broke out right after the Asylum maze. Of course Keldorn was too strong for Viconia. He almost killed her, but then Viconia freaked out and ran away. The funny thing was, they were fighting next to the exit point of that area, and her "panic AI" made her go through this area transition point and escape to the next area. This broke their combat state and neither of them ever talked about it again afterward. Fun times.

I can never forget those moments and up to this day I have yet to find moments equally funny and amusing from any other game.

Exactly. I know it's a bit harder to do it " properly " in case of BG3, it's much more centered around COOP. From singleplayer perspective/Duo of players this wouldn't be a problem, but what if you have a party of 4? Does one of them suddenly loose control over his character ?

I would say yes, absolutely. If you made the wrong choices and your character ended up having a stroke and is now about to kill another guy from your group you accept that this is where your decisions led to.
And start playing another character.

The thing is ... I think Larian is against it at it's core. " Play the game the way you want". If the character you play made a decision you disagree with....well...it wasn't your character. See what I mean?
Same with the "No clock thing".

Nalia's castle is under siege and no she won't wait a month or two until you're done at Umar Hills. In BG3 everything waits for you. Every single person in the whole universe is making extra sure there's a red carpet waitingdd(your enemy, the goblins, INCLUDED). BG2 had very little " Timed events" and usually if a character left your party to deal with something he was waiting for you where you were supossed to do the quest. But once again, it just made so much sense for them to at least pretend they had a tight schedule.

It's hard to catch why BG2 was so good especially now that it's 20 years old. But I do think it's about characters. Those we have in BG3 ( in current form, EA obviously) are nowhere close to what Bioware did back then.


"It literally would take magic to get "the same level of interaction with our team as we did in BG2" from RPGs nowadays. It's a fantasy." -==> I don't think it is. Larian already has the same elements we had in BG2 tbh when it comes to character interaction. But it's not highligthed at all for now. I hope that's part of the " work in progress". If the entire party ends up soulless it would take so much away from that game.


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