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Originally Posted by Alodar
By tying any resting restrictions to difficulty you are making players aware that resting after each combat is easy mode and if they are looking for challenge they will need to rest less often.
And that is where you are wrong. smile

Lets imagine once again ...
In setting there will be "dificiulty" part ... where you can pick prepared "profiles" Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / Custom ...
By choosing Hard, your setting will pick "120 food points per Long rest" ... therefore you were made aware that resting after each combat is easy mode. :P
But you dont like it ... and you change that settings, wich will keep everything else set for hard ... but your dificiulty will be set for Custom. :P


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Alodar
By tying any resting restrictions to difficulty you are making players aware that resting after each combat is easy mode and if they are looking for challenge they will need to rest less often.
And that is where you are wrong. smile

Lets imagine once again ...
In setting there will be "dificiulty" part ... where you can pick prepared "profiles" Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / Custom ...
By choosing Hard, your setting will pick "120 food points per Long rest" ... therefore you were made aware that resting after each combat is easy mode. :P
But you dont like it ... and you change that settings, wich will keep everything else set for hard ... but your dificiulty will be set for Custom. :P

If you are resting more than 4 or 5 times in EA you are playing Easy mode.
You can't divorce how often you rest from difficulty because how often you rest determines difficulty.

Last edited by Alodar; 10/07/21 12:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Alodar
By tying any resting restrictions to difficulty you are making players aware that resting after each combat is easy mode and if they are looking for challenge they will need to rest less often.
And that is where you are wrong. smile

Lets imagine once again ...
In setting there will be "dificiulty" part ... where you can pick prepared "profiles" Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / Custom ...
By choosing Hard, your setting will pick "120 food points per Long rest" ... therefore you were made aware that resting after each combat is easy mode. :P
But you dont like it ... and you change that settings, wich will keep everything else set for hard ... but your dificiulty will be set for Custom. :P

You can't divorce how often you rest from difficulty because how often you rest determines difficulty.

That is totally not true.
What determines the difficulty is the mechanic you use.

Shove, pig heads, dipping, highground advantage, backstab, disengage as a bonus action before patch 5, OP consummables, hide exploit, eventually stealing merchants, throwing ennemies... This doesn't require any rest.

How often you rest just change a the difficulty a bit and nothing more.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/07/21 01:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by Blade238
Meh, I get that people are happy that the implemented changes are all in a positive direction, but this seems like a very small amount of stuff compared to the tons of complaints regarding mechanics.
^This. I'm puzzled too. I guess when it comes to this game, many people want to grab at even the tiniest of straws.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Shove, pig heads, dipping, highground advantage, backstab, disengage as a bonus action before patch 5, OP consummables, hide exploit, eventually stealing merchants, throwing ennemies... This doesn't require any rest.

How often you rest just change a the difficulty a bit and nothing more.

Well granted but if you want to do , let's say, the entire goblin camp without resting it might prove a bit difficult. Not impossible, but it will be tedious to deal with certain fights without your spells/abilities. Or rather borderline silly to the point you will realize you're cheesing the game way to much.( For those who didn't watch the LARPG thing, the first thing they do is open a chest with A LOT of cheese ;P ).

Also I'm replaying BG2 :TOB and it's kinda insane how often they made encounters where you can't sleep in between the fights. Announcing explicitely beforehand : Hey, you won't be able to rest. So becareful.
And all those " no rest" encounters were borderline easy cause they didn't want you to get stuck forever.

I can't wait to play this patch and see how this plays out. Would be huge to see Larian succeed where bioware failed.


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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Blade238
Meh, I get that people are happy that the implemented changes are all in a positive direction, but this seems like a very small amount of stuff compared to the tons of complaints regarding mechanics.
^This. I'm puzzled too. I guess when it comes to this game, many people want to grab at even the tiniest of straws.

It's more like a confirmation that Larian actually is considering the hottest topics and is not dissmising them as " meh, just some forum trolls complaining". So good news smile We still have more than a year before release so really personally I don't care how much time they take for the updates. I just care about where the " general mechanic idea" is going and it seems they are adressing some of the complaints in a way or another so you know. That's all that matters.


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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Alodar
By tying any resting restrictions to difficulty you are making players aware that resting after each combat is easy mode and if they are looking for challenge they will need to rest less often.
And that is where you are wrong. smile

Lets imagine once again ...
In setting there will be "dificiulty" part ... where you can pick prepared "profiles" Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / Custom ...
By choosing Hard, your setting will pick "120 food points per Long rest" ... therefore you were made aware that resting after each combat is easy mode. :P
But you dont like it ... and you change that settings, wich will keep everything else set for hard ... but your dificiulty will be set for Custom. :P

You can't divorce how often you rest from difficulty because how often you rest determines difficulty.

That is totally not true.
What determines the difficulty is the mechanic you use.

Shove, pig heads, dipping, highground advantage, backstab, disengage as a bonus action before patch 5, OP consummables, hide exploit, eventually stealing merchants, throwing ennemies... This doesn't require any rest.

How often you rest just change a the difficulty a bit and nothing more.


You are asserting that spellcasters being able to use every spell in every combat only changes the difficulty a bit -- that's funny.

It's possible you aren't familiar with D&D and don't know how to use the character's abilities to full effect, which seems to be the case from your comment.

If that's the case I suggest you try to play a few playthroughs just using your character's abilities and you'll see how powerful they are and how having access to them every battle trivializes combat.

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Originally Posted by Alodar
You are asserting that spellcasters being able to use every spell in every combat only changes the difficulty a bit -- that's funny.

It's possible you aren't familiar with D&D and don't know how to use the character's abilities to full effect, which seems to be the case from your comment.

If that's the case I suggest you try to play a few playthroughs just using your character's abilities and you'll see how powerful they are and how having access to them every battle trivializes combat

Once again, it looks like your "roleplaying" self contraints doesn't give you a clear vision of how the game really works.

Of course it's a bit easier with all your spellslot if you play a caster... But the game is not way more easier with spellcaster and long rest based classes than it is with other classes.
In exemple fighters don't need to rest at all (eating pig heads is better than second wind), and every classes can use the tons of scrolls like if they were wizards.

I'm glad for you if "you know DnD better than I" but resting is not at all what define the game's difficulty. It's only a small part of it, a tool the player can choose to use often or less often.

Food supply will only define if you can rest more or less, nothing related to the core difficulty elements (ennemy's AC, HP, ennemy's features, abilities, numbers of ennemy's, resistance,... and so on).

They could definitely let us choose how much we want to be restricted by food supply / ressources management or not.
But impose to those that want fireworks at every combats to play unchallenging combats is a stupid idea because the resting mechanics alone does not at all determine the difficulty of the game.
It's only a small part of the picture.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/07/21 06:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alodar
You are asserting that spellcasters being able to use every spell in every combat only changes the difficulty a bit -- that's funny.

It's possible you aren't familiar with D&D and don't know how to use the character's abilities to full effect, which seems to be the case from your comment.

If that's the case I suggest you try to play a few playthroughs just using your character's abilities and you'll see how powerful they are and how having access to them every battle trivializes combat.[/spoiler]

Once again, it looks like your "roleplaying" self contraints doesn't give you a clear vision of how the game really works.

Of course it's a bit easier with all your spellslot if you play a caster... But the game is not way more easier with spellcaster and long rest based classes than it is with other classes.

In exemple fighters don't need to rest at all (eating pig heads is better than second wind), and every classes can use the tons of scrolls like if they were wizards.
Fighters also get Action Surge and either spells if you choose Eldritch Knight or Superiority Dice if you choose Battlemaster.
You should try these features out. They truly affect combat. A Battlemaster's abilities recharge on a short rest and an Eldritch Knight's spells recharge on a long rest.

Quote
I'm glad for you if "you know DnD better than I" but resting is not at all what makes the game's difficulty. It's only a small part of it and the player can choose to rest often or less often. The player can choose to have something a bit more easy or not.

Food supply will only define if you can rest more or less,
nothing related to the core difficulty elements (ennemy's AC, HP, ennemy's features, abilities and so on).

And how easy a battle is depends quite a bit on how many resources you have to take down an enemies hit points to zero.
If your party has full resources they can even take enemies down before they get to use their features and abilities.


Quote
They could definitely let us choose how much we want to be restricted by food supply / ressources management or not.
Impose to those that want fireworks at every combats to play unchallenging combats is a really stupid idea because resting is NOT what makes combats challenging or not.

I'm certain you will get to choose how easy you want combat to be, in most computer games that is tied to difficulty level.

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Disagreeing and talking with you is like disagreeing and talking with Ragnarok^^

I agree with you this time and thanks for trying to learn me DnD....... but it still doesn't make the starting point more true.

Originally Posted by Alodar
You can't divorce how often you rest from difficulty because how often you rest determines difficulty.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/07/21 06:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by Alodar
I'm not advocating for any restrictions to resting.
The current pre-patch system allows every player to rest as often as they deem necessary.
A minority of players, with the current system, only rested when they were out of resources and in places where it made sense to rest.

The majority of folks instead chose easy mode and rested after every combat and then complained that combat was too easy.


By tying any resting restrictions to difficulty you are making players aware that resting after each combat is easy mode and if they are looking for challenge they will need to rest less often.

Y'know this brings up an interesting point. If, as Alodar posits here, the way that EA was configured meant that the majority of players were having an unsatisfying play experience, then that's a clear sign that the design was bad. Just a thought that occured to me. As far as the combination of long rests and difficulty settings, firstly it's worth remembering that this is just a first draft (or second depending on how you want to count) and we're likely gonna see at least one or two more permutations before Larian settles on something final. Secondly, as far as this version of the rest system goes, I think keeping it as its own separate difficulty setting is a better approach. Less because of difficulty itself, more because I can see people not enjoying this sort of resource management, and wanting to play a particular difficulty beyond easy without having to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by Blade238
I'm also incredibly disappointed to read that we shouldn't expect any more new stuff like classes or races in this EA. That pretty much defeats the entire point of a EA. This means there will be no outside critiques regarding any of the other classes or races. It's become very clear that when left to their own insular thinking, these other classes are going to be vastly disappointing and likely unbalanced or gimicky.

They said no new races in EA, so testers still have new race content to look forward to at launch, but all classes will eventually be coming to EA with Multi-classing coming near the end.
Maybe I'm misreading it, but doesn't OP say other races and classes are something we should NOT expect in EA?

That "to look forward to at launch" I call bunk on though. I'd rather test any mechanical stuff prior to launch and have all story being fresh. I don't trust them to balance it all well.

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Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Blade238
Meh, I get that people are happy that the implemented changes are all in a positive direction, but this seems like a very small amount of stuff compared to the tons of complaints regarding mechanics.
^This. I'm puzzled too. I guess when it comes to this game, many people want to grab at even the tiniest of straws.

It's more like a confirmation that Larian actually is considering the hottest topics and is not dissmising them as " meh, just some forum trolls complaining". So good news smile We still have more than a year before release so really personally I don't care how much time they take for the updates. I just care about where the " general mechanic idea" is going and it seems they are adressing some of the complaints in a way or another so you know. That's all that matters.
Okay. But the flip side of this, and what I fear, is that the forum community's message to Larian will end up being: Hey, all you guys have to do is throw out some very minor tweaks every few months, something that adds up to a tiny fraction of the totality of issues people have raised in this forum, and we forum trolls will be ever so grateful and satisfied.

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The changes they've made are not very minor tweaks, and you most likely have no idea how much programming, animation, acting and art resources went into these tweaks or how long they took, allowing for bugs etc. (Honestly neither do I, but wherever programming is concerned, there's always more work than meets the eye.)
Also, THEY ARE WORKING ON THE REST OF THE GAME AT THE SAME TIME. What we see in EA is a small portion. It's not like they're JUST working on refining Act 1 over and over again for us, they're also doing the rest of the game that we won't see until release.

Gods, so much negativity on these forums.

Last edited by Alexandrite; 11/07/21 12:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Alodar
If you are resting more than 4 or 5 times in EA you are playing Easy mode.
You can't divorce how often you rest from difficulty because how often you rest determines difficulty.
Just to be clear ...
DO we both agree that "how easy game is" and "what dificiulty cou picked in settings" are two entirely different topics? O_o

And to be even more clear ...
DO we both agree that we are talking here about "dificulty settings" ?


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I think tying this resting system to how much food/supplies you have is the easy way out of something that could be more immersive and enjoyable.
Forget the food...It would work better is this was tied to creatures spawning during rests:

On story/easy mode just let everyone rest whenever if they have whatever food...even no food for just story mode.
For other difficulties, introduce a creature spawning table dependent on level, time of day (day night cycles please wink....) and the area you are in, and roll a check. So you get a nice risk/reward strategy for wanting to rest, not just a <<just get supplies>> game-play. So at the first rest 10% chance for creature xxx to showup, 5% lucky roll (bellow). Then another rest soon after, up that to 35%/8% more difficult enemies/interesting rewards etc...
The more you rest in that area, the higher the percentage of creature spawning gets (this tied to the difficulty). And maybe during a VERY lucky roll, no creatures but some kind of allie/friendly spawns for items/bonuses or just fun story elements. Like a wandering bard with xxx story leading to a quest line...a hamster with a story to tell...a <magical><cursed> item appearing out of nowhere which is actually a gate to an Inn in planescape's Sigil city of doors...

This is actually kind of close to what BG2 also did (with the SCS tactical encounters and other mods).

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 11/07/21 01:17 AM.
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I don't like requiring food to rest because it won't matter in the end.
I do not believe that they would put a limited amount of food on the act, and if the player consumes everything, start over.
This is definitely a bad game design.
So there are two options either larian will put absurd amounts of food in the game or they will respawn at the traders. The first option is forcing the player to search all boxes, and the second one makes the system useless after a few hours.
Changing the amount of food required is a bad idea due to the difficulty level. Maybe some people enjoy searching every box for food crumbs, but not me.
If they increase the cost of a long rest due to the difficulty level, why play as a long rest based character when others can do the same or even better.
Then, instead of wasting food for a full rest, you only eat a small portion.

I'm not buying an argument to play at a lower difficulty level.
I like difficult fights, but if I wanted to play a game about managing food supplies, I would buy a survival game instead of BG.
So, to sum up, it is better that the cost of food is not related to the difficulty level (maybe you can remove the requirements completely on story mode)

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
or they will respawn at the traders.
I believe "supplies bags" will ...
What is wrong about that? Either you will manage to have aproximately the amount of Long rests Larian presumed you will ... or it will cost you.

I see there quite nice consequences for your actions, yet possibilities for less experienced players who need a little more. O_o


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Also ... question for PFH3 ...
Can anyone please explain me that carpet puzzle they were solving?

I mean, i get that Swen decided to go with trial and error method ... and i would probably too, since i would be totally trapped there. laugh
I can udnerstand the skull puzzle ... i can totally undestand the numbers puzzle ... but i have no idea how to figure the last one. laugh
Anyone have some thoughts? laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 11/07/21 05:59 AM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Also ... question for PFH3 ...
Can anyone please explain me that carpet puzzle they were solving?

I mean, i get that Swen decided to go with trial and error method ... and i would probably too, since i would be totally trapped there. laugh
I can udnerstand the skull puzzle ... i can totally undestand the numbers puzzle ... but i have no idea how to figure the last one. laugh
Anyone have some thoughts? laugh
The picture on the last wall is the scheme of how you supposed to move trough the whole corridor. Left and right lines are walls, the middle line is the trajectory, the dots on the middle line are the right squares markins.

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