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You're doing fine, Raze.

Everyone should be glad I'm not a mod around here. I would ban people left and right. First offense!

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If you truly do not see what I meant, then I will illustrate.

I do not hold the OP to the same standards as I hold you, or that's how things would go: you are a Larian employee. I don't think you should be satisfied by "making logical sentences". You aren't a robot, and a big part of a public figure is managing the emotions of the masses.

OP throws an emotional tantrum (or alternatively, a rant), which you robotically rebuke at first (mostly fine except your comment about what is felt as moronic) and aknowledge only partly at second after some "harsh" comment which simultaneously attack OP's intelligence and strawman his position.

Had you "aknowledged" his point at first (then rebuked or showed how to alleviate the problems the OP felt), it *might* have gone differently. As you said, considering OP opening abrasive tone, it's a big if (I mostly agree with you, I'm just commenting because it's not the first time I see you doing that, I think you are generally very helpful, and I try to return the wagon by pointing something I consider a problem in how you adressed this thread). But reading your answer is extraordinary: you expect from the OP some human understanding (you shouldn't, especially not after attacking his intelligence) at some point while mostly exempting yourself from it (you yourself aknowledge only late that no game is perfect, but alas after attacking OP, and still being partially aggressive while doing so anyway). It should be the other way around.


The OP is complaining about how there is NO way to group heal/auto heal after a fight. Factually, it's wrong: you pointed to the hydro master spell (there's also the adept spell). You also add that auto-healing can be perceived as moronic and dumbing down the game as it removes consequences to badly managing a fight. But to be perfectly honest, Larian's game is guilty of exactly that (I'm fine with it): it's a game without much consequence when one doesn't optimally manage a fight: there are group heal spells that cost nothing in term of in game resource (no ingame time limit, no mana, etc...). All that you lose is time, which becomes the next contention point: you can't say that a game that makes you lose 15 seconds to group heals is more dumbed down that a game that makes you lose 3 minutes. At that point, you strawman the OP as someone who thinks incurring strategical penalty for badly managing a fight (not D:OS case) is moronic.

On top of it, you borrow OP's abrasive expression. Should you stoop to his level?
Who cares that "some" people think that auto-healing is moronic? Should I mention that some people think Larian Studio is the worse game studio?
Do you imply that all opinions are equally valid?


Yeah I've seen too the people complaining that the RPS game is rigged because of the absence of tie. It is precisely why it didn't escape me. It is immersion breaking (people perceive it's not a well simulated RPS > they don't think anymore they play a RPS game). But it's not that big of a deal, so people don't complain. Which is my point. This RPS rigging and the auto healing debate thing are both choices of comfort/abstraction vs immersion. It is the same principle. But a different balance. You should not argue on the principle.


"Pointing out that someone's continued abusive language and/or behaviour (when they are insulting the intelligence of others) does not exactly present their own intelligence / maturity in the best light is the least invasive way to address the matter." is actually irrelevant, for several reasons.
It's not addressing the matter at all, merely focusing on the (poor) form rather than content. If there is no content, that would be the primary issue. If you are really affected by words and tone and immature form, then engage in tone policing (I wouldn't do that personally but to each his own). But to mirror poor form is... poor form itself.
Not only would you be unsuitable at your position if you thought that people ranting are really making judgements about people (it shouldn't be taken at face value, nor be adressed logically at the surface level), but is your job convincing stupid people that they are stupid (if that's even doable)?

If you really think there's next to nothing to bring back an angry customer to your cause, then you are writing for the public (us). You are engaging in some form of PR. Attacking your customer intelligence, even if you are right, is just poor taste unless you are entertaining.



I think that, as far as the form is concerned, your statements are okayish. But you clearly were aggressive in your second post (you let yourself being affected by OP's abrasiveness). Your first post is okayish but honestly could have done way better (or just abstain). Nobody's perfect, but you can improve.
I did not say that you alienated directly some group of people (said anything about them).
I tried to say that when you take a side when it isn't even needed in the first place (in this case, SECONDARY developer choice), and while doing so poorly attack somebody on the other side (even if that person is poorly attacking others), and while you are yourself representative of a company, you WILL alienate people because they naturally tend to take sides.

Do not borrow any retarded comment about what's moronic in auto-healing or timesinks as it may make it appear that you might agree with it.

Last edited by Chrest; 23/04/16 11:03 PM.
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A couple of comments, if you please...;)

I've been advocating that Larian stage an official awards ceremony where Raze is awarded an entire chest-full of shiny medals for his outstanding customer service to Larian's customers...;) He deserves them, no question...! He has more patience and tact than even I might have and that makes it a considerable quantity!...;) Raze is a sterling credit to his employer.


The most common unjustifiable complaint I hear about games--any game--is that the player is frustrated because he discovers that the game has its own rules and its own environment and it's not just like game A, or B or game C. These people had a preconceived notion of the game when they bought it and cannot adjust to what the game is as opposed to what they "thought" it was going to be.

Those folks, I've found, will tire of computer gaming as a hobby quickly because they'll never learn how to savor and enjoy what each game offers them--they are so stuck on their notions of what a game should be like that they completely miss what the game they are playing is really like--and feel like they wasted their money because they didn't get what they *thought* they were getting--completely missing what they *got.*

I've played this game through ~ four times...couple-three times on the first version and am wrapping up the EE now. Great game--so much to discover and uncover and enjoy--but those without open minds need not apply. For instance, instead of bitching and moaning because the inventory maybe isn't as flexible as you might like or you've seen in another game--just learn how the inventory works in *this game* and before you know it it will cease being any kind of "burden" or "chore" because you'll have learned how it works. Then you won't be fighting the game any more--like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, etc....

Two kinds of people attempt to use computers: those with patience and an enjoyment of learning and those with little of either. The ones with patience will get their money's worth and find rich rewards--the ones without never will. Perhaps it's a rendition of the old "glass half full" or "half empty" question, too.

This game began life as a PC game and that's the only way I play any games at all (or ever have). People don't often clearly understand the nature of a "port" and what the original programmers do--which is that, generally, another *company* (a whole other company) is tasked with a "port" of the original game to a specific OS or environment that the original company is not directly interested in supporting for whatever reasons. I have no idea if that's the case here for the console ports of the EE, but I would not be surprised if I was close.

This fact is also one reason I would never own a Mac or buy OS X games for it, along with game consoles--because they are almost all paid ports of the original games that, most of the time, were written for the far larger market of the x86 Windows PC markets, first. Some ports can indeed be even better than the originals, although that is a rare occurrence, to be sure! I have nothing against ports--console games ported later to PC environments are generally very bad--at least by my PC-gaming standards--and I think everyone should clearly understand the nature of a port and what that likely means. A good port can be a very positive thing--but it's still a port.

It seems to me that D:OS is such a sprawling, huge game that trying to squeeze it all into the rather by-comparison constricted hardware environments of the current consoles (already slated for improved hardware versions later this year, I hear) would be like trying to funnel the Mississippi river though a straw--well, not *that* bad...:D But I hope people will get the idea. We don't live in a causeless-effect universe. There is cause, and effect, for everything.



I'm never wrong about anything, and so if you see an error in any of my posts you will know immediately that I did not write it...;)
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Chrest;

The OP did not acknowledge that anyone acknowledged that any of his points had any merit. He was not interested in debate or advocating a position. If he was at all interested in debate, he may have stuck around long enough to see the auto-heal mod released.

I did not attack the OP's intelligence. See above.
I did not strawman the OP's position. I didn't even attempt to summarize his position, let alone misrepresent it in order to make a point.

If the OP had given any indication there was any chance it would have made a difference, I would have gone into more detail with my replies. The OP was not interested in the master level group healing spell, and would very likely not have cared if I had mentioned the adept level spell or mods that included full heal items that can be used outside of combat, etc.


There is a difference between no consequences for doing poorly in combat and not much, especially when it takes a while to get to a point where it is not much.
I at no point tried to claim the OP thought anything about the value of penalties for doing poorly in combat. However, since he thinks anyone who finds value in such penalties are "god damn morons" it would be safe to assume that he does, in fact, think such penalties are moronic.
I never made that claim, though, and do not know what you are referring to. Also, I'm not sure you know what a strawman argument is, or you are using it in a context I am not familiar with.

If the OP is arguing that not having auto-heal is moronic, then, yes, it is absolutely relevant to bring up the fact that there are people who like and value that type of design.

RPS and auto-healing are not the same principle. See above.
You can not say that if you skip ties in RPS, you must automate everything else in the game that it is possible to automate, because it is all the same thing.

People have emailed support who were afraid to post in the forums when certain debates were going on. Allowing someone to continuously post abuse and never even mention it is not great for the forum. If someone is calling other people stupid and their own behaviour isn't exactly making them look very intelligent, pointing that out is a warning, not meant to convince anyone that they are stupid. I have made such comments about 2 or 3 times in the history of the forum.


Waltc, FireWatcher;

Thank you.


Redpax;

Most people are fine even if they have a complaint.
Even in the 90's there were flame wars going on in newsgroups (found a bunch around 96/97, searching DejaNews for opinions on whether IDE or SCSI hard drives were better), and (I'm pretty sure) bulletin boards before that.

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Originally Posted by Raze

Even in the 90's there were flame wars going on in newsgroups (found a bunch around 96/97, searching DejaNews for opinions on whether IDE or SCSI hard drives were better), and (I'm pretty sure) bulletin boards before that.

Especially in the '90s, in my experience. Newsgroups were certainly... well, an experience, at risk of being all tautological.

IDE vs. SCSI, though? vi vs. emacs is where it was at. Obviously vi is the superior editor. Entirely coincidentally, I prefer vi.

Edit: actually I do remember ESDI vs. SCSI spilling over into the workplace. The ESDI fans won, and then support was promptly discontinued. I didn't really have any investment in either camp at the time, but I was still all "lol" about it.

Last edited by Vometia; 24/04/16 07:49 PM.

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I saw a little bit of the Vi vs Emacs, but didn't use either.
I still have the SCSI drives I bought. The 4GB was huge and would easily accommodate an OS, lots of data and one or two extremely large games that were getting up to 1GB install sizes; a year or two later it wasn't quite so huge so I added a 9GB and then 18GB. They are still working in my old computer, though are not on much lately (power to the external SCSI enclosure has the computer boot to Win 98, off to XP, which I mostly switched to very late).

Anyway, I'm getting a tad off topic...

Last edited by Raze; 27/04/16 08:25 PM. Reason: typo
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I had quite the opposite experience as the OP (at least I think). Sounds like he expected the game to be good and was disappointed. I actually expected to NOT like the game and was wondrously surprised. Being a huge Larian fan from DD, BD, and D2, I was not happy at all to find that D:OS was going to be turn based. I hate turn based. And why change the genre in an existing franchise???!???! (I won't mention Dragon Commander... still haven't brought myself to play that one either :p )

But with their track record of making great games AND offering amazing support, I decided to, finally, get on board by backing D:OS2, which scored me a copy of the EE from 1. over 350 in-game hours later, I've had a ton of fun and am very glad I gave the game a chance. To the OP question, I have honestly asked the question in the past... how is Larian not MORE popular? When I played DD, the first words out of my mouth were, "well that was A LOT better than Diablo... why is this one not so popular?".

I still hope to see the Divinity series return to its roots (or even a new IP in that genre) (more ARPG oriented). While I have a few complaints about D:OS:EE, I would still consider it a very fun and polished game that holds its own amongst AAA titles.

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Originally Posted by Raze

boot to Win 98, off to XP, which I mostly switched to very late).

Anyway, I getting a tad off topic...
First time ever seen - moderator spam out a troll by off-topic articles. laugh

Raze, You should ask for a Guinness book record. lol

Last edited by gGeo; 27/04/16 07:48 PM.
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Huh, I see I don't get any credit for being off-topic! :p


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Ya, that's right... and you started it, too, so you should get just as much credit.
silly

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Was reading through the forum today and came across this thread, and I must say I'm truly stunned. Not only by the OP, but also by Chrest; one was misinformed, and the other was - frankly - just disrespectful and arrogant.

Chrest: you spent your entire post raining a shower of urine down on Raze simply because you did not approve of the particular tone he chose when dealing with a community member that had (a) swore at and insulted other posters ( who were quite friendly in the discourse with him ), (b) criticised the game in harsh terms, and (c) swore at and insulted Larian staff members. Raze isn't a customer service rep; he's a community manager/moderator. Most CMs would resort to a merciless banhammer in such situations, but Raze chose to tackle the situation head on... and he did very well indeed.

And as for your "you're supposed to represent the company" nonsense, you are right. And he does, by merit of the fact that he's (still, despite this thread and/or others) employed by the company. The final arbitrator of the quality of his work are his bosses, and given that he's still doing his thing we can assume they are perfectly happy with his approach. As such, he DOES represent the company. No "supposed to" about it.

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Originally Posted by Spinfusor
Was reading through the forum today and came across this thread, and I must say I'm truly stunned.
Of course you are. This topic is about ancient hardware like SCSCI 360. Do you have some?

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Originally Posted by gGeo
like SCSCI 360. Do you have some?

I thought that the 360 used bus-and-tag channels: SCSI didn't come along until a bit later. But SCSI vs. DSSI, there's another argument that hasn't been argued enough. Possibly.


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@Drachehexe
If your OS is Win 10 you can switch to Desktop by hitting the Windows-Button on your keyboard. Alt-Tab got another effect and now only shows Windows-Thumbnails. If there aren't any, nothing happens. Blame Microsoft and not Larian for this.

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Just trying to say you do a good job but I guess that backfired. Most people are not fine. Most people are turds.

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Sorry for resurrecting old one, but I tried to replay this game... enhanced edition and only managed to bear it for about 30 minutes. I stopped and deleted piece of crap as soon as I found out now I can not have all party in sneak mode. Earlier when you were clicking sneak button all party was entering sneaking mode and you could bring it near enemies and attack. Now only one bastard sneaks and if you want to reach same thing you have to made them sneak one by one and bring near enemies - it will take you minutes - especially with damn terrible camera and inability of characters run all time. I found out that was made on purpose, cause people were complaining about it. I think those were same people that were complaining about auto-heal after fight and who prefer to do everything in hard way. Now, after last changes this game is for total masochists. Damn!

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Originally Posted by Makumba666
Sorry for resurrecting old one, but I tried to replay this game... enhanced edition and only managed to bear it for about 30 minutes. I stopped and deleted piece of crap as soon as I found out now I can not have all party in sneak mode. Earlier when you were clicking sneak button all party was entering sneaking mode and you could bring it near enemies and attack. Now only one bastard sneaks and if you want to reach same thing you have to made them sneak one by one and bring near enemies - it will take you minutes - especially with damn terrible camera and inability of characters run all time. I found out that was made on purpose, cause people were complaining about it. I think those were same people that were complaining about auto-heal after fight and who prefer to do everything in hard way. Now, after last changes this game is for total masochists. Damn!


IIRC, characters have different stats, so unless you spec 'em the same, one of your characters will attract unwanted attention. It wouldn't work so well and I feel it'd be more frustrating .

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I just finished this game for the first time and mostly had a good time. (After having a *very* rough start and quitting and then starting over from scratch a few months later). This being a rant thread aside, I do have to concur that inventory/stuff management is by far the weakest part of the game. It genuinely sucks. There were innumerable things that made it agonizing.

Having to painstakingly rotate the camera around and around to get just the perfect angle to allow me to pick something up.

Not having a sort by alphabetical option (seriously, why?!) I don't know if "mysterious seed" is an ingredient or a miscellaneous item or consumable. I also picked up 700 things since then. I just remember it was called "mysterious seed."

Alt highlighting objects you can pick up but not highlighting lootable containers for *some* reason. There being no "search everything in X radius around me" option on PC as there is on consoles (if there is I could never find it).

It being really unclear at first what is truly useless junk and what might have some ostensible use for crafting or selling. (I eventually figured out if it lacks the "combine with" option on right click it's useless).

There being no craft all option when you are using some stationary tool like an oven or a water pump. (Oh my god making paper!)

A giant descriptive text box popping up and obscuring half my inventory at the slightest mouse over of any object when I'm trying to slowly scroll through and recognize an object by sight.

Accidentally stealing an object when I was trying to click on the ground or an NPC or anything but that object.

Having miscellaneous things that were neither stolen nor plot items that would not come up as things I could sell to merchants for reasons. I had a random crap sword for a long time I finally just threw on the ground because of this.

Having to hold down the right or left button on the mouse for an inordinately long time to select an item to drag or bring up the menu for it.

Not allowing me to drag an item to a character portrait if the inventory screen is open while also randomly rearranging the order in which each companion's inventory appears. Sometimes Lohse is listed second. Sometimes last and I have to scroll all the way down because everybody above her has so much crap in their inventory. Who knows why? Meanwhile her portrait is always the second slot and I could have just dragged there.

Backpacks all looking the same, being hard to open, and having a smaller grid making you have to scroll more. At a bare minimum letting me label them so I know that one has the potion reagents and that has the arrows in it would have made it less miserable.

I don't want to oversell my complaints here. I had a lot of fun with this game and am mostly satisfied, but if any component deserves a rant it is definitely the inventory management system.

I do also think it's dumb that you have to wait for ability cooldowns outside of combat. This made healing very tedious. It also made waiting for teleport or various other leaping abilities while navigating the broken pathways over lava on the Act 3 map extremely annoying.

*Oops* I am taking about DOS2 and for some reason thought this was the DOS2 forum. Most of these complaints apply just as well to DOS1 as well though. They really didn't clean up most of the problems between installments.

Last edited by Ontarah; 14/07/21 10:55 PM.
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