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P:WotR will be releasing soon. For those looking for a great D&D-like cRPG experience, see:

https://www.rpgwatch.com/articles/pathfinder--wrath-of-the-righteous-presentation-and-qa-510.html

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Well, it's releasing fall, it's not very soon(
They wanted release this summer, and I was hoping it would distract me from BG3 as I was hungry for RPGs, but yes... They changed that.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Well, it's releasing fall, it's not very soon(
They wanted release this summer, and I was hoping it would distract me from BG3 as I was hungry for RPGs, but yes... They changed that.
Use the summer to enjoy sunshine and fresh air from being cooped up inside your home all these months. September 2 will be here before you know it. smile

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Or try playing DDO instead. wink Or the Drakensang games. wink Or Indiana Jones And The Fate Of Atlantis instead. wink Or Day Of The Tentacle instead. wink Or The Secret Of Monkey Island instead. wink


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I really dislike the game and regret paying for beta. The whole experience takes so long, its like they thought "how do we waste as much of the player's time as possible?"

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Well, Blizzard used to do it as fast as possible : They basically invented zerging by shedding away all social interaction, for example.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
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Originally Posted by Grouseman
I really dislike the game and regret paying for beta. The whole experience takes so long, its like they thought "how do we waste as much of the player's time as possible?"

I am pretty curious as to what you disliked about it, because I consider it better than Kingmaker in almost every way. I struggle to think of anything that would be considered 'wasting your time' in comparison.

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Quick rundowns on a few companions for those who don't mind mild gameplay spoilers, in the order of when they can potentially join your party. May add more over time. This is all assuming everyone remains single-classed.

Seelah:

Sword and board tank Paladin that can dish out good damage. Her primary weakness is that her armor weighs her down a lot, drastically slowing her movement which may make her unable to intercept threats to your back line from your party's side or rear. However, she later gets the ability to get an animal companion that she can later mount, removing her movement weakness. It also essentially combines the animal companion's HP with hers, and the animal companion may end up with higher AC than she does (and single target enemy attacks directed at Seelah will be redirected towards the animal companion first). Any attacks Seelah makes will have the animal companion joining in with their attacks too, resulting in potentially high amounts of burst damage. However, any status effect that messes with the animal companion will end up negatively affecting Seelah as well - a trip will knock Seelah off and render her prone, and anything that paralyzes the mount means Seelah also isn't moving unless she dismounts and fights on foot.

If you don't want Seelah to build towards mounted combat, you can have her get divine weapon bonds instead, which directly enhance her weapon attacks.

As a character, she's surprisingly not really a holier than thou Paladin. She leans more into the good alignment rather than her lawful side. Her character arc is mostly about her friendship with childhood friends, and struggling to retain her trust in her friends even if they do something questionable. It's way more interesting than it sounds.

Cameilla:

A very aytpical Shaman/Druid that specializes in rapiers. She can be built in a wide variety of ways. Because of her class, she can be a pretty great buffer/debuffer and healer, and gains access to hexes just like Ember (though Ember's hexes are generally stronger and she gets access to a higher tier of them later). Because of her high DEX bonus, ability to use bucklers, and access to a few spells and class features that can boost her AC further and grant herself damage reduction/damage enemies for hitting her, she can double as a tank. I have heard that if you build her in a very specific way even within her single class, her AC total can surpass Seelah's. And she can enchant her rapier with bonus elemental damage, which can allow her to inflict respectable melee damage to boot.

Her backstory is, uhhh, quite a trip. Let's just say she is NOT like any druid you've ever met, a real Druid or Shaman would likely question why she is even one to begin with. It would be best for me not to describe anything about her at all...

Lann and Wenduag: (Both paired together because you can only keep one of them. You can have both in the party at various points of the game, but an early game decision will force you to commit to one.)

As stated earlier, both characters are mutually exclusive. Good aligned MCs will most likely stick with Lann, while evil-aligned MCs will most likely have Wenduag joining, but it sounds like it is possible for good aligned MCs to have Wenduag and vice-versa. Whichever one you end up with is tied to a tutorial phase choice that marks your first steps towards the angel or demon mythic paths. Both party members start off as your primary archer for most of the game, though Arueshalae will also cover the archer role if you end up choosing not to take either of them.

Lann is a Zen Archer monk. As such, he is surprisingly tanky, generally matching or surpassing even Seelah in HP, and his AC late game can get high enough to double as a true tank himself (generally blocking off attacks against your back line). He gets easy access to feats that remove the risk of taking attacks of opportunity from enemies attacking him in melee, and he can even perform opportunity attacks with a bow against enemies in melee range as well. His monk powers include a personal Barskin and a Dimension Door, so he can warp up to enemy spellcasters and archers to blast them in point-blank range with his bow shots and opportunity attacks, and then turn around and get full attacks against enemies from behind. Super unique concept for a cRPG archer.

I haven't had the opportunity to really play with Wenduag, but she is a plain Fighter archer. You can get her early enough in the game to easily direct her focus towards other weapons and multiclass her, while Lann already starts off with a much more rigid focus in comparison due to his heavy DEX/CON/WIS stat spread. I have heard that shifting Wenduag's focus to throwing axes turns her into potentially the highest damaging party member in the game.

Lann and Wenduag are mongrelmen, and they have a very different outlook on what that actually means. The mongrelmen believe that they are descendants of the First Crusade that were warped by the worldwound. They have an incredibly short lifespan and are generally deformed as a result (like Lann appears to have the features of a goat, while Wenduag has the features of a spider). Lann believes that their suspected heritage means that the mongrelmen should be duty-bound to fight against the demons, while Wenduag appears to believe that the people were just blessed (or cursed) with incredible power and should use it as they see fit in their short lives without being bound to tradition.

Ember:

Her role is very unique from most other cRPG mages. She gets a wide variety of healing and utility spells and abilities, and gets fire spells like Scorching Ray and Burning Arc for her offense due to her background/class features. There is actually a ring you get later in the game that adds bonus fire damage die for each hit from a fire spell that seems to be tailored for her use.

She is capable of respectable crowd control through her Slumber hex, which I've noted is able to affect everything except for swarms. Her slumber hex allows her to attempt to put any enemy within range to sleep, one attempt per enemy per day. With it, she can potentially shut down a spellcaster or archer in the enemy back line, stop a minotaur from charging to your back line, knock out an enemy on the front lines so all of your melee can get a free opportunity attack on them, and so on. She can also get other hexes, the most useful IMO being Evil Eye (which works even if the enemy saves, a successful saving throw just reduces duration to 1 round) and Protective Luck (which essentially imposes disadvantage on everything that makes attack rolls against the target), and her Cackle ability extends the duration of all hexes by one turn each time it is used.

Her story is pretty interesting. The marketing for the game so far gives off the impression that Ember is a child-like elf who never really developed mentally and has a naïve view of the world despite the horrors inflicted upon her and her family. That couldn't be further from the truth. It quickly becomes obvious that this girl is way smarter and knows A LOT more than she lets on, to the point where one of the evil aligned party members who is generally fearless tries to warn you that there's something OFF about her and that it makes her very nervous. This is even more apparent if your main character is an atheist, which unlocks several unique dialogue options when talking to Ember that amounts to questioning the purpose of the gods - which is ironic, as your character can make a religion check to figure out that the crow that follows her around is possibly a familiar of a very obscure lesser known god. Even in the late stage of the game that the beta ends at, no one yet knows exactly what her deal is, and figuring that out is possibly one of the biggest mysteries in the game right now.

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I think generally this game is a big improvement from Kingmaker in almost every aspect. I liked kingmaker quite a bit so I look forward to the full game. some comments:

- I think this game has one of the best companion casts I have ever seen, period. almost all the characters you can have as companions are either instantly interesting or become very interesting in unexpected ways. Owlcat also improved on the interparty interaction, and the companions will react and talk with each other much more often than before and not only during campout.

- this one is not an issue but more of a personal taste - like kingmaker, there is too much combat without much diversity. this is a "classic hardcore CRPG" so perhaps I have no idea what I'm talking about and should go back to skyrim or something, but in my humble opinion, this loop of story combat story combat story combat becomes really tedious and really exhausting. both here and on kingmaker they tried to offset it with other mechanics, and while I feel like the Heroes style army combat is better than kingdom management in doing so, there isn't enough of it and it is not interesting enough right now (perhaps it will be improved) to be really invested in it. I don't know how to explain it better than that. I can only use an example from another classic CRPG - in Baldur's Gate I never felt like there is too much combat. I don't think it is even nessecerally about diversifying the gameplay and more about designing more interesting combat scenarios.

- story - this is the big one, the biggest problem with the game as I see it. It's been a little while since I played the game, so I don't remember all the details, but I can say for sure that the biggest problem I have with this game is that I think the story is underwhelming. From a little inquiries I made on the official discord, it seems to me that they are very faithful to a source material, which I never read, but seems to be not so great. My biggest problem with the story is that it feels really generic and predictable, and even when it isn't, it's not because of great story telling, but because it just doesn't make much sense.

Since I already own the game and since it is still very good game I'll probably finish it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be the perfect experience the fans are selling


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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They still have ways to go, some things require improvement, like the ui, the mounted combat and some bugs, but generally speaking I concur with the previous posters: WoTR excels PF: K in every aspect.
The characters in WotR are more fleshed out, I do not know if it´s because its based on a more story-focused campaign of Paizo (wrath of the righteous) than kingmaker but the people you meet and the ones that join you seem more interesting to me and they have more to say than before. I thought I will miss the "barony management" of the first title but I think the crusade strategy minigame has potential, but right now It´s still not fleshed out.
The fans of the Pen-and-paper game and the ones that already played the WotR of paizo will find that the Owlcat devs are still making a very good adaptation of the Pathfinder tabletop and campaign but adding a great cast of characters to it.

The cast and characters are great, but the story is merely functional, as expected. I mean, It´s a rpg videogame, not a visual novel or a graphic adventure. Myself if I want a good fantasy story I pick a book, of Rothfus, Sapkowsky, or Abercrombie, etc... they surely will do better than any game.
When I play a game I want to play a character and crush some skulls. =D

That said, as the previous poster said, it´s a hardcore rpg with lots of combat and very unforgiven in harder difficulties. So If you do not like combat you may want to lower the difficulty or try another type of game. You do not really must have a combat oriented, power-playing party unless you are playing in the higher difficulties but you will have to beat some strong enemies to finish the game.

So, even there´s a lot lore, dialogues, scenes, etc, there´s also a fine amount of of battles, exploration and puzzles to solve. If you are not into that sort of thing, It´s better if you wait at least until the beta is over to think about buying the game. If you are into it and you liked the previous owlcat game or the tabletop rpg, I fully advise you to go for it. The game is great, and improving.

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I've seen this notion of "video games can't tell good stories" and it's one of the most pretentious, misguided, boomer ideas I have ever seen on the internet. Video games are a medium, just like books and movies, and there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to tell good and interesting stories. Moreover, when you make this claim, You actually give a game a pass for bad writing and story when you really shouldn't. OwlCat seem to care about their story a great deal. the fact that they aren't there yet doesn't mean they shouldn't try.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Abits
I've seen this notion of "video games can't tell good stories" and it's one of the most pretentious, misguided, boomer ideas I have ever seen on the internet. Video games are a medium, just like books and movies, and there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to tell good and interesting stories. Moreover, when you make this claim, You actually give a game a pass for bad writing and story when you really shouldn't. OwlCat seem to care about their story a great deal. the fact that they aren't there yet doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
I generally agree with you here. But, it is also possible that maybe, just maybe, writers have run out of interesting ideas/hooks to write around. I definitely see this in contemporary movies and TV shows. That's why everything in those two mediums these days are "remakes." So maybe the same thing is now beginning to happen in video games, especially within specific genres of video games. I mean, within cRPGs, how many truly new and unique stories have we gotten in recent years? It's always some variation on a common story recipe.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Abits
I've seen this notion of "video games can't tell good stories" and it's one of the most pretentious, misguided, boomer ideas I have ever seen on the internet. Video games are a medium, just like books and movies, and there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to tell good and interesting stories. Moreover, when you make this claim, You actually give a game a pass for bad writing and story when you really shouldn't. OwlCat seem to care about their story a great deal. the fact that they aren't there yet doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
I generally agree with you here. But, it is also possible that maybe, just maybe, writers have run out of interesting ideas/hooks to write around. I definitely see this in contemporary movies and TV shows. That's why everything in those two mediums these days are "remakes." So maybe the same thing is now beginning to happen in video games, especially within specific genres of video games. I mean, within cRPGs, how many truly new and unique stories have we gotten in recent years? It's always some variation on a common story recipe.
Sure, but you can say this about every story ever. it's about how you tell it and what nuances you manage to bring into it. for sure, most games will have generic stories. It doesn't mean you should wave your hand and say "ah it's just a video game what did you expect?"

I seriously doubt his comment about video games stories was anything more than "Oh look at me I'm reading Sapkowsky I'm so sophisticated what?! good stories in these mob consumption products?! impossible!"

Regarding remakes - this is a very common and old criticism of Holywood. Are there objectively more remakes these days than in the past 50 years? I don't think so. and of course the majority of movies will be generic and lacking in any sense of originality, but how literature is any different?

Last edited by Abits; 21/07/21 08:01 AM.

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On the subject of "video games can't tell good stories," I always thought it was simply that most of the time video games fail to tell good stories in their execution. As in the medium is perfectly capable of doing it, but most of the time they fail. That is no different from the majority of fiction or tv or film. Abits I totally agree that by writing off the medium people actually acquiesce to video games not needing good stories - when actually it's very important to affirm that video games are capable of telling good stories, and the fact that they so often don't is a failure of scope, vision, writing, design, pandering, the specific but not insurmountable challenges of the medium, content-production as an industry and so on and so on. I want better, basically.

That being said - the uniqueness of video games as a stroytelling medium, when it works, can be phenomenal. the Baldur's Gate saga is case and point. The BG story is nothing special in its constituent parts: but the way it is executed as a video game is exceptional. It is a story that is perfectly suited , integrated and built around the game presentation: isometric cRPG. In that I mean the BG saga is not just "what happens" but the plot + presentation + gameplay + the cRPG sense of progression done so well; all meshing together as an integrated whole. It just does the art of "storytelling" really well in the medium it is presented in - there is nothing particularly "new" in the story, it just tells it well taking full advantage of a particular stroytelling medium.

So what I think is that so often video games stories seem to be fighting against their medium - the game is almost an inconvenience to the story - but to really tell good stories in video games the possibilites and potentialities of the medium need to be the reason why that story is a video game, not say a movie, or book, or play, or music video, or whatever.


----


Any way I have high hopes for WotR, hopefully it will do video game storytelling well.

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Well, I have seen two very differenr RPGs, which have a very different way of telling a story :

- Wildermyth
- Vagrus ("Riven Realms")

I'll definitively look into them, because I have never seen a similar way of storytelling - at least that's true for Wildermyth.
Whereas Vagrus is very traditional, it also contains a lot of text - which is good for those who prefer story ofer action (what is called in DDO as so-called" "flower sniffers", people who like to see every detail of a quest).

In DDO - that's currently my favourite game, still, simply because I like its setting - I have played through very good storie - but there are bad ones as well.

I must agree, though, that Wrath Of The Righteous is epic ... I'm just not so much sure whether I'd like to have a lot of these in-game battles. Plus, Iä#ve decided a little bit more for patches.


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"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch

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