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People can ...
But Larian cannot, especialy since Wizards still own all rights to this franchise. laugh

Therefore, people are as irellevant as Tolkien around here. wink


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I am super angry and sorry if this would happen:
"If Wizard of the Coast says tomorow, that since now their Elves are all fat and have bear ears on top of their heads "

If Larian would do that then I do not play BG3. The chance of this is not even 1% that would happen before BG3 is done.

I did buy Skyrim. Did I play the Skyrim much? No I did not like it. I played it less then 10 hours.

I will not play a DnD game or BG3 if Elves are all fat and have bear ears on top of their heads.
That is not all I would then say to my brother and friend do not buy BG3 because they would to want to play this game with me. My brother and one friend of my do not want to pay BG3 before it is done like BG3 1.0. That is not all. I am slightly rich or say good economy and well my brother has much money, but my poor friend do not have much money at all but when I told him I can MAYBE (if I like BG3 but I tell him I dont like it then no) pay half of what BG3 cost if I like BG3 game when it is done he said sure I can play then if I pay and want to play BG3 with him. He my friend unlike me or my brother really does not have much money usually he only play old games or free games. If a game cost more then 30 euro it is to much for my friend. Well and I have lots of money or enough money so in this rare case I could pay 50% say 30 euro that is if I like BG3 of my poor friends cost to buy BG3. My brother listens to me I guess he will not buy BG3 if I say I do not like it. Same brother that went with me to Cinema and see all Tolkien Lord movies hardcore Tolkien fan as me. This poor friend of my and my brother we have also played other games together and what I say matters a lot to them and I rarely want to play games with them nowadays so they really look forward to play with me BG3.
This also due to single player games and not always same taste my brother plays Witcher 3 single player game and I am not interested in DOTA2 that my brother plays. I can not play Solasta with my brother since it is single player game.

This nickname of mine comes from when I played Unreal Tournament 2004 with my brother and my poor friend my nickname was Terminator. I am fan of the first 2 Terminator movies. Well so we have a long history of playing games together.

It is rare I give my poor friend presents. Well and when I say poor I did not mean he is poor so he starve of food however poor compared to me:

I bought example Battlefield 3 to my poor friend for 10 euro and then we played it together. Well and with this poor friend I played Neverwinter MMO Dungeons Dragons 4th edition over a year until I quit it got bored and when I quit my friend said he does not want to play it if I do not play it and he quit it shortly after I stopped playing Neverwinter MMO which you could play for totally free which we did.

While World of Warcraft MMO which is very expensive game and subfee I played over 3 years and my brother stopped playing it after 1 year but not due to it was to expensive game for my brother he though it was to much TIME sink and grind. Of course my poor friend never played expensive WOW MMO I did not even ask him to do that.

I am landlord and have n tenants and my poor friend lives on rent and has no property that he owns no house, no apartment, no summer cottage nothing. I am not rich though in my own eyes and at my poors friends birthday was one person clearly more rich then me a multimillonaire.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 06/08/21 07:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Honestly, I wish rpgs would present a bit more variety in body types. I really loved that about Obsidian's Tyranny, where you could choose height and body type (I do realize that Tyranny had a much more isometric cartoonish style where it was easier to implement such things).

That's a reasonable compromise for players that want to introduce human blood somewhere in an otherwise ordinary elf's ancestry.

Last edited by Ragitsu; 06/08/21 08:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by Terminator2020
If Larian would do that then I do not play BG3.
And do you know what effect will that have? smile
None. wink

Nobody would care, nothing would happen ... one (or three w/e) less person is irellevant, since game allready sold millions of copies. wink

Rest of your post is as usualy huge offtopic. :-/

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
The chance of this is not even 1% that would happen before BG3 is done.
That was not the point ... (again)
It was *example* (i recomend googling) ... that was created just to explain why any elves from any other sources than DnD are not relevant to this game, to this setting, therefore to this topic. Nothing more.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
If Larian would do that then I do not play BG3.
And do you know what effect will that have? smile
None. wink

Nobody would care, nothing would happen ... one (or three w/e) less person is irellevant, since game allready sold millions of copies. wink

Rest of your post is as usualy huge offtopic. :-/

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
The chance of this is not even 1% that would happen before BG3 is done.
That was not the point ... (again)
It was *example* (i recomend googling) ... that was created just to explain why any elves from any other sources than DnD are not relevant to this game, to this setting, therefore to this topic. Nothing more.
You dont understand. I am not alone in this Larian would shoot in their own foot and possible hundred thousands or more would not buy BG3. I honestly feel you begin trolling this thread could you please stop that?

Well so what BG3 has sold over a million on Steam already. Well and many on Gog.com.
Right so Larian would want to piss of many of those buyers doing your wish of fat and bearded Elves? I do not think so it lies in Larian interest and word would spread out of pissed of consumers cool! You seem to believe everybody would be happy since DOS2 was a good game? I do not deny DOS2 was a good game no attack on that. However if you want to piss of Tolkien and DnD fans and many fans of traditonal Elves with creating fat and bearded Elves that would piss of a huge amount of consumers mad!

Last edited by Terminator2020; 07/08/21 04:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm no AD&D aficionado but I read they're meant to be stunningly beautiful. I looked though those official art work pics and they look closer to one of the Greys. I don't know about you but that's not my idea of beauty.

The Greys are short (dwarf height or lower), grey-skinned (duh), completely hairless, feature large/disproportionately larger heads, have dead black eyes, et cetera. I'm not seeing a connection.

Anyhow, beauty is in the eye of the...beauty is subjective wink. Nevertheless, quite a few physical traits common to "typical" elves have been and still are considered attractive relative to humanity.

Large eyes? Check. "Cow eyes" have been desirable since at least the time of Hera.
Almond eyes? Check.
Chiseled facial features? Check.
Willowy build? Check.
Occasionally androgynous? Check.

The ears are a bit of anomaly when placed alongside a "normal" human, granted, but I'm sure there's enough desire for them out there.

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I for one am glad Larian's reigned in on the arms race of ear length but in the last decade or so they've somehow ended up with ears longer than your arms.

The two stark examples I can think of are from the Warcraft games and the Record of Lodoss War anime. I don't think D&D's elves have ever possessed ears that lengthy or, if they ever did, they were definitely outliers.

Last edited by Ragitsu; 07/08/21 05:36 AM.
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2021 Earth Human values/issues sucking all the Fantasy/Scifi out of our games and movies.
Larian/Wotc should just make races look however everyone wants and be done with it. Same for classes.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 07/08/21 06:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
2021 Earth Human values/issues sucking all the Fantasy/Scifi out of our games and movies.

Yeah god save us from Fantasy/Scifi works of art that do social commentary. What were they even thinking?

Irony aside, both Scifi and Fantasy were always centred around contemporary social issues, from the very beginning of the genres. There is no such thing as pure escapism...

Last edited by spacehamster95; 07/08/21 06:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
2021 Earth Human values/issues sucking all the Fantasy/Scifi out of our games and movies.

Yeah god save us from Fantasy/Scifi works of art that do social commentary. What were they even thinking?

Irony aside, both Scifi and Fantasy were always centred about contemporary social issues, from the very beginning of the genres. There is no such thing as pure escapism...

Yea just like Star trek Picard and Discovery versus TNG series. Works of art.
There is a HUGE difference between IN YOU FACE SWALLOW THAT social commentary, and WELL SCTRUCTURED SUPBTAL social commentary.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 07/08/21 06:34 AM.
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Obviously, I am talking about Fantasy/Scifi authors, but yeah sure you can include popculture if you'd like. Though, you mentioned movies and games in your post and that's what I was referring to.

Last edited by spacehamster95; 07/08/21 06:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Obviously, I am talking about Fantasy/Scifi authors, but yeah sure you can include popculture if you'd like. Though, you mentioned movies and games in your post and that's what I was referring to.

For me anyways, there is a HUGE difference between IN YOU FACE SWALLOW THAT social commentary, and WELL STRUCTURED SUBTLE social commentary.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Obviously, I am talking about Fantasy/Scifi authors, but yeah sure you can include popculture if you'd like. Though, you mentioned movies and games in your post and that's what I was referring to.

For me anyways, there is a HUGE difference between IN YOU FACE SWALLOW THAT social commentary, and WELL STRUCTURED SUBTLE social commentary.

What is in your face? too loud for you?

For me, I can explain what is loud and quiet commentary in fantasy:
For instance, the violent white supremacy of the Conan the Barbarian novels is very blatant, I can see that (Robert Ervin Howard was famously white supremacist, even by the contemporary southern standards), on the other hand, the racist ideas of Tolkien's are much more subtle and harder to confront (creating the orcs after the mongols, evoking that old European fear of a mongol invasion).

What is too loud or subtle for you?

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Originally Posted by spacehamster95
For me, I can explain what is loud and quiet commentary in fantasy:
For instance, the violent white supremacy of the Conan the Barbarian novels is very blatant, I can see that (Robert Ervin Howard was famously white supremacist, even by the contemporary southern standards), on the other hand, the racist ideas of Tolkien's are much more subtle and harder to confront (creating the orcs after the mongols, evoking that old European fear of a mongol invasion).

I know nothing about the Conan novels but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's Orcs were originally Elves, captured and corrupted over time (so not sure how they are supposed to mirror the Mongols if they are simply corrupted versions of the 'pure' ones). Do you have a source that they were based on Mongols? I have never read that before.

I read an article recently stating that Frodo and Sam were in a closet homosexual relationship in the novels. Our contemporary cultural goggles, I think, often skew our vision as to what was intended...and obviously in many cases, shine a new light on them.

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Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I honestly feel you begin trolling this thread could you please stop that?
Well, you started it. laugh
You end, i end. :P

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Right so Larian would want to piss of many of those buyers doing your wish of fat and bearded Elves?
Lets play a game ... i call it search for differences:

"i wish" vs. "here is and example"
"larian would do" vs. "this is reason why other settings is irellevant in our topic"

When you find differences, we can move to harder level. smile


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Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
For me, I can explain what is loud and quiet commentary in fantasy:
For instance, the violent white supremacy of the Conan the Barbarian novels is very blatant, I can see that (Robert Ervin Howard was famously white supremacist, even by the contemporary southern standards), on the other hand, the racist ideas of Tolkien's are much more subtle and harder to confront (creating the orcs after the mongols, evoking that old European fear of a mongol invasion).

I know nothing about the Conan novels but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's Orcs were originally Elves, captured and corrupted over time (so not sure how they are supposed to mirror the Mongols if they are simply corrupted versions of the 'pure' ones). Do you have a source that they were based on Mongols? I have never read that before.

I read an article recently stating that Frodo and Sam were in a closet homosexual relationship in the novels. Our contemporary cultural goggles, I think, often skew our vision as to what was intended...and obviously in many cases, shine a new light on them.

Lorewise, you are perfectly right. Orcs were created after Melkor captured, tortured and corrupted some of the earliest elves.

But, I am talking about meta-literary stuff. This is a very common criticism (found in most scholarly analysis of his) that is leveled against Tolkien's body of work, that his concept and depiction of the orcs were heavily influenced by the medieval descriptions of the mongols by European chronicles. So Tolkien, as an English man, wrote orcs as these parodies of Asian people who are invading the white space (Middle Earth).

Of course, I am not saying that Tolkien was an evil man and his work is awful for this. He had issues, sure. But, on a more positive note, he was also a passionate environmentalist and his work is also permeated with that.

On the note of Sam and Frodo, imo they are more of a reflection of Tolkien's experience in the Great War with his comrades in battle. Sam and Frodo mirror a very old literary tradition called the Love of the Heroes (like Gilgames and Enkidnu, Achilleus and Patroclus, David and Jonathan, et cetera), battle buddies with an overwhelming level of devotion to each other. Reading this as erotic is not a contemporary thing however, the entire Antiquity read the Illiad as a love stoy.

So yeah, it is not a stretch to read Sam and Frodo as more than friends. I mean, after Sam's children grew up, he did leave them and Middle Earth behind to find and reunite with Frodo.

"Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay." (Book of Ruth)

Imo, that is love, whether erotic or not that can be debated, but it is a powerful love.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm no AD&D aficionado but I read they're meant to be stunningly beautiful. I looked though those official art work pics and they look closer to one of the Greys. I don't know about you but that's not my idea of beauty.

The Greys are short (dwarf height or lower), grey-skinned (duh), completely hairless, feature large/disproportionately larger heads, have dead black eyes, et cetera. I'm not seeing a connection.

Anyhow, beauty is in the eye of the...beauty is subjective wink. Nevertheless, quite a few physical traits common to "typical" elves have been and still are considered attractive relative to humanity.

Large eyes? Check. "Cow eyes" have been desirable since at least the time of Hera.
Almond eyes? Check.
Chiseled facial features? Check.
Willowy build? Check.
Occasionally androgynous? Check.

The ears are a bit of anomaly when placed alongside a "normal" human, granted, but I'm sure there's enough desire for them out there.

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I for one am glad Larian's reigned in on the arms race of ear length but in the last decade or so they've somehow ended up with ears longer than your arms.


The two stark examples I can think of are from the Warcraft games and the Record of Lodoss War anime. I don't think D&D's elves have ever possessed ears that lengthy or, if they ever did, they were definitely outliers.
Well here is some sense disucussion and not totally off the mark....

I would say World of Warcraft MMO affected this as being one game with long Elf ear length. I played it for more then 3 years until I quit. In WOW MMO the Elf ears were big and long, but that I considered more WOW artistic art and then it was made clear so nobody would mistake them for not being other races. There were still two different races of them example Blood Elves on the Horde side and other Elf race on Alliance side.

Well and WOW MMO did it not completely ruin it at nobody did they include fat or bearded Elves.
To say this had no impact would be wrong at peak of its glory whan I played WOW MMO during Wrath of Lichking as newest expansion WOW MMO had more then 12 million active sub fee payers.

Oh and dont say DnD has never tried to taked elements from WOW MMO. They started doing that is DnD 4th edition. Example spell Hunters Mark for Rangeer is copied from WOW MMO and still remains in Dnd 5th edition though I have nothing against this. WOW MMO in return borrowed much fantasy ideas from Tolkien and Dungeons Dragons.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 07/08/21 08:50 AM.
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Terminator: why are you keep going back to fat and bearded elves? Ragnarök used it as an examples. If fat and bearded triggers you, then take other examples. Maybe blue hair and brown skin. The topic was, that Tolkien elves and dnd elves are mit necessearily the same thing.
Just because you like Tolkien elves doesn't mean, that WotC must cater to that. They have their own mythology and that was all, people tried to explain to you.
Btw there are fat elves in DnD. There was a fat elf npc in one campaign.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
Terminator: why are you keep going back to fat and bearded elves? Ragnarök used it as an examples. If fat and bearded triggers you, then take other examples. Maybe blue hair and brown skin. The topic was, that Tolkien elves and dnd elves are mit necessearily the same thing.
Just because you like Tolkien elves doesn't mean, that WotC must cater to that. They have their own mythology and that was all, people tried to explain to you.
Btw there are fat elves in DnD. There was a fat elf npc in one campaign.
A freak Elf then and not normal. In real world some humans are extreemly long humans and some of them have unfortunately have if I undestood correctly a disease that can be deadly many times and they will not reach pension age likely. Example a CANCER. Research has proven if you are very tall human in real world indeed specially etreeme tall then chance for CANCER is higher. I am not talking about Belgian national football goalkeeper that is slightly over 2 meters tall. No I am talking about the most tallest humans on earth and Belgium football goalkeeper is short compared to them.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 07/08/21 09:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by fylimar
Terminator: why are you keep going back to fat and bearded elves? Ragnarök used it as an examples. If fat and bearded triggers you, then take other examples. Maybe blue hair and brown skin. The topic was, that Tolkien elves and dnd elves are mit necessearily the same thing.
Just because you like Tolkien elves doesn't mean, that WotC must cater to that. They have their own mythology and that was all, people tried to explain to you.
Btw there are fat elves in DnD. There was a fat elf npc in one campaign.
A freak Elf then and not normal. In real world some humans are extreemly long humans and some of them have unfortunately have if I undestood correctly a disease that can be deadly many times and they will not reach pension age likely. Example a CANCER. Research has proven if you are very tall indeed specially etreeme tall then chance for CANCER is higher.
Again-the point, you keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.

Last edited by fylimar; 07/08/21 09:03 AM.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
u keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.
I have not been annoyed by that Drow have different skin color then in Tolkien world and they still are handsome or beautiful in general. I accepted it from R.A Salvatore books. Well and the Elves in WOW MMO did not annoy me despite having very big ears well not to mention Blood Elves in WOW Horde side are kind of red color or in that direction the name Blood kind of gives hint of red color. The Elf race on Alliance look more like typical Tolkien Elves if you forget the big ears. Well and WOW Elves were still enough beautiful though a bit excentric sometimes with WOW artistic style affecting at least armor looks and bigger ears then Tolkien Elves have.

Guess I want Elves to be beautiful and enough different from humans and Tolkien Elves are beautiful. Well and in Tolkien workd there is more then one Elf race. There are High Elves example Galadriel Elf Queen and Legolas are High Elf race most powerful Elf race. However the Elf in Hobbit movie the beutiful Woman Elf that healed (not in Hobbit books with angered many Hobibit fans but whatever) was not High Elf race despite being Elf. This other Elf race is less supernatural then High Elf race and more close to human races then High Elf race.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 07/08/21 09:40 AM.
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