Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
It seems wrong that spellcasters are basically shouting all their spells. In most situations, it makes no sense they would speak them any louder than is required to not alert enemies to their presence. It's also unnecessarily comical when they shout the spell out pompously and then it's just some minor cantrip.

Take Shadowheart for instance. Let's say she's sneaking around a dark dungeon with monsters crawling about. Why in the Nine Hells does she shout " MAIOR FORTIO!" at the top of her lungs when just casting Guidance for lock picking or "SOL INVICTUS!" when casting Light? If anyone, she should be whispering those incantations considering her god. It just seems off. And other characters do it too.

It would be better if the loudness of the spellcasting would match the loudness of the actual spell effect or the power level of the spell.

Joined: Dec 2020
B
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
B
Joined: Dec 2020
"I"M CASTING A SPELL!!!!! DID YOU HEAR THAT??? WHAT?? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY LOUD (VERY) CHANTING!"

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
I allways thought that is required part of the spellcasting. O_O


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
And why does the same spell sometimes have different incantations? E.g. Light has at least two different incantations and it's not the only one.

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I allways thought that is required part of the spellcasting. O_O
Surely a normal speaking voice is enough even if a whisper might not be. The shouting just seems to be for show and it feels wrong in most cases. Sure, shout a Fireball that creates a roaring fiery explosion anyway but casting a cantrip should not require that much volume.

If Larian's vision is that the verbal components need to be shouted even for cantrips, they should make enemies react to the sounds and come investigate at least. But I'd much rather hear something more subtle. BG1&2 got this right. Spells sounded really cool even in a low voice or whispered. They used echo effects and other sound effects combined with the words.

Joined: Oct 2020
C
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Oct 2020
It’s a 5E thing, it was the same for BG 1 & 2, it is a vastly common Fantasy trope, and once we get Sorcerer they have the monopoly (outside of a feat) on casting a spell quietly.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Chukkensorc
It’s a 5E thing, it was the same for BG 1 & 2, it is a vastly common Fantasy trope, and once we get Sorcerer they have the monopoly (outside of a feat) on casting a spell quietly.
You're mistaking one thing with another. Sorcerers can cast without saying anything at all. Others need to pronounce incantations for many spells, but there is no requirement to shout them as loud as possible. Such requirements would make some of the spells useless.

Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
I do agree, that implemented spell VO sounds more like anime-style yelling of attack names, then spell incantations. I would welcome a more restrained performances, simply for a sake of “cooler” delivery.

Joined: Oct 2020
C
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Chukkensorc
It’s a 5E thing, it was the same for BG 1 & 2, it is a vastly common Fantasy trope, and once we get Sorcerer they have the monopoly (outside of a feat) on casting a spell quietly.
You're mistaking one thing with another. Sorcerers can cast without saying anything at all. Others need to pronounce incantations for many spells, but there is no requirement to shout them as loud as possible. Such requirements would make some of the spells useless.

I’m really not. According to many many spells in 5E, they have a verbal component. I’m not saying that it is canon to shout like Skyrim. I’m saying it has been this way since BG1.

Furthermore, by RAW, you can’t sneak attack with spells even as an Arcane Trickster. Why? Because of the verbal component (also because WotC).

Last edited by Chukkensorc; 12/08/21 09:30 PM.
Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Chukkensorc
I’m really not. According to many many spells in 5E, they have a verbal component. I’m not saying that it is canon to shout like Skyrim. I’m saying it has been this way since BG1.
No, again. You're mistaking one thing for another, and maybe you should try to read more carefully. We all here are well aware about verbal component existence. The problem discussed in this thread is that characters shout at full capacity of their lungs for every verbal component.

Joined: Oct 2020
C
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Chukkensorc
I’m really not. According to many many spells in 5E, they have a verbal component. I’m not saying that it is canon to shout like Skyrim. I’m saying it has been this way since BG1.
No, again. You're mistaking one thing for another, and maybe you should try to read more carefully. We all here are well aware about verbal component existence. The problem discussed in this thread is that characters shout at full capacity of their lungs for every verbal component.

Again….this is super common in CRPGs. BG1, BG2, IceWind Dale, Neverwinter Nights (to a lesser extent), etc. It’s a trope, sure. To say I don’t understand the discussion is very dismissive. Being able to whisper cast a spell without an enemy hearing it isn’t in the 5E rule set outside of metamagic. This is a 5E game. Whisper casting won’t be a thing.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Chukkensorc
Again….this is super common in CRPGs. BG1, BG2, IceWind Dale, Neverwinter Nights (to a lesser extent), etc. It’s a trope, sure. To say I don’t understand the discussion is very dismissive. Being able to whisper cast a spell without an enemy hearing it isn’t in the 5E rule set outside of metamagic. This is a 5E game. Whisper casting won’t be a thing.
No one here is talking about the mechanics side, we are talking about the voice-over and how it doesn't sound "nice" to our ears, because It's loud, very loud, histerical shouting every fight for even most weak spells.

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
All previous games, BG1&2, NWN etc. have better direction in spell incantation recordings. While in these older games Evocation spells can also be loud, shouty and in your face, schools like Illusion and Divination sound quieter and more mysterious. And they use more intonation, even vibrato and effects like echo to make it sound more magical. BG3 spells sound like the thought process was missing there or the recordings were just rushed through. Even Gale reads them like a grocery list and often the latin sounds inconsistent. And whatever direction was lacking was compensated by just being really loud i.e. Shadowheart almost breaking character by shouting every cantrip.

I just expect more from a AAA budget.

Last edited by 1varangian; 12/08/21 10:27 PM.
Joined: Sep 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
Spell casting volume should be directly proportional to the level of the slot used.

Level 1? Barely above a whisper, like your character is trying to have a conversation while in a library or classroom and trying to not get caught.
Level 9? A thunderous roar. Completely overwhelms any other game sounds, blowing out your speakers and obliterating your real life eardrums.

Cantrips can start out quiet and grow as you reach levels 5, 11, and 17.

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Spell casting volume should be directly proportional to the level of the slot used.

Level 1? Barely above a whisper, like your character is trying to have a conversation while in a library or classroom and trying to not get caught.
Level 9? A thunderous roar. Completely overwhelms any other game sounds, blowing out your speakers and obliterating your real life eardrums.

Cantrips can start out quiet and grow as you reach levels 5, 11, and 17.
But the nature of spells is also very different. While the power level should be represented as well (e.g. more added sfx the higher you go), Meteor Swarm should sound very different from Astral Projection, which I would imagine to be more echoy and weird instead of just loud and smashy. Transcending through dimensions in ghostly astral form should be quite different from smashing meteors down from the sky.

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
To be honest, and I diverge a little from 5e standards here... the concept of verbal components for spells hasn't ever really struck true with me *except* for casters who have learned their magic and the shaping of the weave through pure academia, and casters who entreat deities; that mainly means wizards and clerics.

Wizards have no innate magical ability (that is why they are wizards); they draw upon the weave and shape it by creating the arcane construction needed through an understanding of shapes, forms and sounds that cause these effects; they can't 'feel' the weave in the same way innate casters can. For them, having the full list of components makes a lot of sense; "this gesture, with these sounds, in this manner, manipulates the weave and actualises it this way" (Gale's weave scene is actually a really good depiction of this, in many ways), so their tendency may well be to speak with force and pronouncement, because they *must* be incredibly precise.

For those that entreat other beings, such as clerics, paladins, druids, and arguably warlocks as well, the need for vocalisation makes sense, absolutely, but the need for it to be forceful, precise and loud very distinctly does NOT. A cleric may cry out to their deity with force and fervour, certainly... but equally so they may clutch their symbol, close their eyes and whisper their prayer as they channel the powers they've been granted. As others mention, it should likely vary by spell type and situation. Sneaking characters incant quietly, characters engaged in pitched combat probably shout, characters casting charms and such should probably talk smoothly or whisper.

For casters with innate abilities, the concept of verbal components just feels completely off base... For a sorceress with power in her veins; power that, by definition of being a sorcerer, generally *has to be used*, or else it finds a way itself sooner or later... The idea that she must incant a specific line or string of syllables to release the effect she can evoke feels... to be blunt... stupid. At least it does to me. A sorcerer hasn't learned formulae and structure for the magic she evokes, and she hasn't spent hours in study perfecting the right syllables to shape the magic just so.

All that said... the idea that everyone must shout their lines at all times "because that's the way BG1 did it" is equally ridiculous. Let's get some context sensitivity in here, please.

Joined: Sep 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Spell casting volume should be directly proportional to the level of the slot used. [...]
But the nature of spells is also very different. While the power level should be represented as well (e.g. more added sfx the higher you go), Meteor Swarm should sound very different from Astral Projection, which I would imagine to be more echoy and weird instead of just loud and smashy. Transcending through dimensions in ghostly astral form should be quite different from smashing meteors down from the sky.
Yeah I know. I was mainly joking based on my memories of spell chants in Kingmaker's.
Cure Light Wounds: "Magritio Torinos"
Cure Moderate Wounds: "Magritio Torinos!"
Cure Serious Wounds:"Magritio Torinos!!"

Heal: "MAGRITIO TORINOS!!!!"

I don't remember how it works in BG3, but P:Km had entirely different chants for different schools of magic and for divine vs arcane casters. This worked well enough for me. It's totally fine if the chants for all evocation spells are the same, even if some evocation spells are e.g., fire and some are ice. Making an entirely separate chant or sound-feel for every single spell would be too much work better spent elsewhere.

Joined: Aug 2021
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2021
Originally Posted by Niara
For those that entreat other beings, such as clerics, paladins, druids, and arguably warlocks as well, the need for vocalisation makes sense, absolutely, but the need for it to be forceful, precise and loud very distinctly does NOT. .

I personally think Warlock are basically mages. They learn magic from a teacher and both use the rules of arcane magic to cast their spells. The main reason pact mages get a bad name is because wizards are jealous. Why are you a half-baked magic user just because your teacher actually understands magic (Warlock) instead of just being a slightly more experienced diletant (wizard)?

Puting that aside, I remembered that in Xanathar's there are some nice customization option for classes. One of these, for the Pact Mage, has that s/he shouts the name of their patron together with the spell. If you go from there, it could be better to have your mage comment on his spell action, after a short cantation in medium volume.

i.e.:
Flama Flamae Flamae Flamam Flama [normal voice]
Burn in my arcane might! [shouted]


The problem is, that many spells would need a custom shout and it needs to be fitted to different classes.
While I would find such a thing more flavourful, I assume the shouted words are just easier and cheaper to produce.

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
I personally think Warlock are basically mages. They learn magic from a teacher and both use the rules of arcane magic to cast their spells. The main reason pact mages get a bad name is because wizards are jealous. Why are you a half-baked magic user just because your teacher actually understands magic (Warlock) instead of just being a slightly more experienced diletant (wizard)?

That's not what Warlocks are though. They don't learn and understand their magic, they are *Given* it, and they channel it *from* their patron... they are fundamentally clerics, who receive their powers from sources other than recognised deities. The only thing a Warlock is generally taught is the "end-user" instructions for theoir magic - they don't understnad it, and don't ahve the full picture, and if the Patron pulls the battery out, the magic doens't work, and the Warlock doens't know how to fix it.

Here's the difference: If a Wizard's experiences the utter anihilation and eradication of everyone and everything they ever learned from, and is left with no-one but themselves, They will still be able to use their magic (provided the weave itself still exists). They had no innate magical ability to begin with, and no sugar-daddy providing them with power directly - they are a self-made caster, and can stand on their own and be that.

If a Warlock experiences the utter anihilation and eradication of their patron, and that entity is simply removed from existence.... the Warlock has NO power, and CANOT cast ANYTHING. Their patron can also simply cut them off (the more likely situation), at which point, agian, the Warlock knows nothing, has nothing and can do nothing - becuase the magic is NOT THEIRS - it's something that they channel from their patron.

In 5e there is no distinction beteen "Arcane Magic" and "Divine Magic", not in any mechancial sense. All magic comes form the weave, whether it is drawn directly by those with innate connections to it (sorcerers, bards etc.), whether a caster draws power from the weave by way of a divine intermediary or other power acting as a conduit for them (clerics, warlocks), or whether they do it by sheer force of academic understanding of the ways in which the weave can be manipulated, and how (wizards), it all ultimately comes from the same source.

Last edited by Niara; 13/08/21 08:07 AM.
Joined: Aug 2021
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2021
This is getting off-topic, but I disagree.
The thing is, the PHB is not nearly that clear cut - as far as I understand it, both interpretation are possible.
The Warlock could be a Pact Mage or s/he could be a pseudo-cleric.
There is no rule that a Warlock loses anything from killing their patron. I am not even sure it is the same for every warlock.
Even what is offered to the patron is left vague. Sure most people think of the classical "selling the soul", but it is not really stated.
And, at least in Ferûn, your soul should either be sold or you should worship someone who is interested in you, otherwise you end up as a snack for Asmodeus (I think).
Which actually begs the question, why would any patreon give you an increasing amount of power, or even keep teaching you, if they already have your soul?

Bottom line, the warlocks nature is not quite as obvious or clear cut as many seem to think.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5