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The fun part is that you are not forced to play chaotic evil at all ...

Take Githyanki, for example ...
They are strictly Lawfull Evil ... Kithrak tells Beretha litteraly: "Question, kill, then move on!"
From your perspective they may seem chaotic evil, since they "chaoticaly" killed everything they met ...
And that is where that definition is wrong. smile
Since Chaotic / Neutral / Lawfull ... only means how strict order, or rules if you wish, do your character follow ...
Since Githyanki are strictly millitary nation, they are Lawfull, since whole species lives by same set of rules, that is passed on them since hatching. smile

Take Goblins ...
They are Neutral Evil ... that kinda mean pure pragmatic, there are some "rules" that may differ goblin to goblin, and if they disobey them ... usualy nothing happens. laugh
Yet they may seem to be chaotic evil, since they also "chaoticaly" raid, plunder, betray and kill everyone they can ... but its more bcs its simply more beneficial for them, than any other reason. laugh

And finaly, take Gnolls ...
That is your chaotic evil race ... Gnolls have no rules to behaviour at all, Gnolls never "want to do" anything, when they want something, they simply do it and there is no set of rules or prohibitions that will stop them. smile
Gnolls dont have any rules, they have no use for them ... and that is what makes them Chaotic race.

Its not what your character do what defines him as "chaotic evil" but why does he do that. wink
If you wipe out whole Druid groove bcs you are expected to do that ... you are Lawfull evil.
If you wipe out whole Druid groove bcs its more profitable to do that ... you are Neutral evil.
If you wipe out whole Druid groove bcs you simply wanted to ... you are Chaotic evil.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/03/21 12:47 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If you wipe out whole Druid groove bcs its more profitable to do that ... you are Neutral evil.

This is my problem, there is no benefit in this compared to any other option. This is very expensive, long and it is not really useful. At least that's what I thought.

buuuuuut


Larian has changed something, now in a dialogue with Mintara she says that the Absolute has blessed you and you are "transform" you can accept the transformation or reject it. I don't see what it gives, but maybe in the future it will give new abilities??? A new power? Then the path of evil makes sense. I've never seen this cutscene before. I don't know if it's patch 4 or if it's because I killed druids myself before goblins came. But now, in theory, you have a benefit in the form of "power", but you need to understand how risky it is. The very word "transformation" is frightening.

Even if it's "profitable," it still looks silly, as does accepting hallmarking. It also annoys me that I have to kill goblins later. Why should they be mad about this situation? I really don't understand.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
This is my problem, there is no benefit in this compared to any other option. This is very expensive, long and it is not really useful. At least that's what I thought.
To quote Kryten: You are quite right sir! As usual. ... How could i made such and elementary misstake? As usual?

No, but honestly ...
You are right, i should have write: "because you believe it would be more profitable" ... since none of our characters can forsee how profitable would any action actualy be. smile

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Larian has changed something, now in a dialogue with Mintara she says that the Absolute has blessed you and you are "transform" you can accept the transformation or reject it. I don't see what it gives, but maybe in the future it will give new abilities??? A new power? Then the path of evil makes sense. I've never seen this cutscene before. I don't know if it's patch 4 or if it's because I killed druids myself before goblins came. But now, in theory, you have a benefit in the form of "power", but you need to understand how risky it is. The very word "transformation" is frightening.
Nah, i certainly seen the same in previous patches ... just not sure wich one it was. :-/
I presumed it was just some of her zealous blubeling. :-/

But now, when you mentions it ...
We are able to use only one tadpole-mind trick per long rest ... but in Wylls conversation with Spike, there are two uses in the row, funny enough, if you pass the first chance, you never get the second one ... so either its overlook, or its meant to be failed ...
Maybe we get option to use Tadpole-mind trick more often? O_o
Have you checked your character sheet? Especialy passive features?

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Even if it's "profitable," it still looks silly, as does accepting hallmarking. It also annoys me that I have to kill goblins later. Why should they be mad about this situation? I really don't understand.
You dont "have to" ... as long as you avoid their camp. :-/
And i dont think they are "mad" at all ... they simply have their orders, and same as those twins you meet near owlbear cave, those orders says to kill anyone and everyone who was on that Nautiloid.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Maybe we get option to use Tadpole-mind trick more often? O_o
Have you checked your character sheet? Especialy passive features?

I didn't think about it, maybe I'll check it today. =0

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And i dont think they are "mad" at all ... they simply have their orders

Yea but I mean why? Because my party say, "the goblins will be furious when they find out what happened." And what exactly happened?

Minthara wanted to betray us and take all glory for herself, I understand that, but apparently other leaders didn't like Minthara very much anyway, so I can't make out connection... Unless Absolut ordered them all to kill me, but that doesn't explain. We're just being confronted with the fact that now the goblins want to kill us, too.


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
I didn't think about it, maybe I'll check it today. =0
Certainly let us know how that ended! :3

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Yea but I mean why? Because my party say, "the goblins will be furious when they find out what happened." And what exactly happened?
I didnt get my evil play since patch 3 yet, so im not familiar with in what situation they say it. :-/

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Minthara wanted to betray us and take all glory for herself, I understand that, but apparently other leaders didn't like Minthara very much anyway, so I can't make out connection... Unless Absolut ordered them all to kill me, but that doesn't explain. We're just being confronted with the fact that now the goblins want to kill us, too.
Well ... i can only speculate here, since none of that was specificly "told" so far ...
And to be completely honest i just hope it will never be. :-/ Since i kinda like this hints that you need to connect yourself.

I dont think Absolute ordered to kill "you" specificly ...
More like she knows that proces of your tadpoling was unfinished, and therefore you are threat ... either to herself personaly, or to her plan since you (as far as it seem) are the only one (six so far, including companions? :D) who even knows about what is happening.
And therefore she give order to kill everyone who survived that crash.
Now to specific reactions:
- Twins try to kill you, once you reveal you are their target, they are merely soldiers who follows their duty.
- Gut tryed to outsmart and use you for her personal benefits, partialy disobeyed the Absolute ... kinda brave for her ... but on the other hand, once that Mind flayer will hatch, you will exist nomore ... so, you will be technicaly dead anyway.
- Ragzlin imediatly try to kill you, since (honestly) he just seem to be more muscles, than brain ... and this is just the way he is dealing with problems.
- And Minthara? Oh, that is entirely different story. She is loayal to the Absolute, so she plan to kill you since the begining, but she is also cunning and insidious ... so she decided to use you first with her attack. Either you will die during the attack and her mission will be completed, or you will be wounded and her mission will be easier ... after that she even slept with you, to exhaust you even more. She basicaly is in win/win position this whole time. laugh

Personaly i simply believe that Minthara send to goblin camp message, or maybe told everyone that if you return, the Absolute ordered them to kill you.
It would be maybe clearer if she would tell "i was ordered to kill you here" instead of "as far as they know, you were suppose to die today". :-/ But in the end, there is little diference. smile


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Do I need to follow the Evil path if I wanted to... "have a little death" with Astarion through my gameplay?

...just asking, ya know.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Taramafor
DING! Just been in a debate on a youtube vid about this. Someone called what Shadowheart did as evil when she comes to the camp then tries to kill you after a failed roll. But really, when you're protecting your own SANITY that is SELF PRESERVATION! Honestly. Some people need to stop avoiding giving a straight answer and just tell me their opinion on that matter already. Yeez.
That is main problem with aleigances in general ... they are just limiting.

You can see yourself as lawfull good paladin, that will protect poor villagers from bloodthirsty goblin raiders ... but from goblin perspective you are nothing but chaotic evil murderhobo (since that word is so popular around here) who kill anyone on sight. smile

Originally Posted by Taramafor
I roleplay as a hellhound online. It's quite fun. IMO what makes you evil is that you're "just there". Hell, you might not even be a target. I just want fun. It will be at your expense. Amuse me or die. And even then you still might die.
And great thing is that, its possible. smile
Sadly ... for some people even that possibility alone will work like "the only way" argument. frown

Another thing Never Nights 1 did (in the expansion with the kobolds) was talk about saving a kobold. And having a paladin do it. Right at the start.

This so called "good" paladin didn't understand at first. The player can then mention that their teacher was teaching them that not all kobolds are evil. To which the paladin agrees and calls the player wise for.

That's what games are missing these days. Context. Specifics. events that go against expectations and operate outside of what people think. Making it the reverse and pulling it off. Old games like NW1 and BG2 did it better. It's not "species this, species that". It's "This drow has their reasons. Who is the lover of another drow they're trying to kill." That quest was in BG2. Can end a number of ways. I like to have the target be thought off as dead yet left alive. It's all a bit mr and mrs smith like.

Then I look at the drow here and it's like... "Kay. Typical control freak. Is this supposed to amuse me?" Eh. Maybe when we get deeper into the underdark.

I also remember having a conversation with a demon in hell and being told I make its skin itch when I'm good alligened. I always chalk this down to "the closed mind". I get that itch around people that thinks things are simple when they don't use their brains as well. I've always found its the "good" gods that have their heads up their ass. While the "evil" ones will at least give it to you straight. But the worst part is that the "good" types often lie to themselves. even if they don't know they're doing it. This ends up coming down to fear itself. And the road to hell...

Moral high grounds is more then evil. It's a losing game. I am not obligated to live up to someones expectations. I will not be enslaved that way. I need incentive. And no one acts without self interest. Even anyone claiming to be selfless is actually stroking their own ego. Because they want to believe they're a "better person".

Here's the thing though. If you don't care about someone enough to hurt them, your "good nature" could be why they are left to suffer. And people can love you for pushing them. I'll take that over good and evil any day.

Last edited by Taramafor; 12/08/21 10:04 PM.
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Cute ...
But its still just matter of your point of view. :-/

That paladin calls player Wise, bcs he realized that "not all Kobolds are Evil" ...
But then that Kobold joined raid on near town ... therefore he is Evil.
But then you find out that his clan was Starwing ... therefore he is their Hero.
But then you find out that they killed people ...
But then you find out that if he would knock them out, they would seek revenge and endangered his family ...
But then you find out ... i dunno, something else, for example that they lived there in peace, until people came and declared Kobold land for their own. laugh

And the story can go on and on ...


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Cute ...
But its still just matter of your point of view. :-/

That paladin calls player Wise, bcs he realized that "not all Kobolds are Evil" ...
But then that Kobold joined raid on near town ... therefore he is Evil.
But then you find out that his clan was Starwing ... therefore he is their Hero.
But then you find out that they killed people ...
But then you find out that if he would knock them out, they would seek revenge and endangered his family ...
But then you find out ... i dunno, something else, for example that they lived there in peace, until people came and declared Kobold land for their own. laugh

And the story can go on and on ...

You're comparing the kobold from earlier to the kobolds attacking the town. Same tribe of course but we don't know anything else about the kobold I mentioned. Kobolds also aren't doing it for fun. they're specifically after items. Just like humans would be if they attacked a town. Holy crusades anyone? Everyone has their reasons. And the kobolds make no excuses.

We must also keep in mind the dragon is ordering the kobolds to do so. Who would probably eat the kobolds if they don't do what they're told.

Then we talk to the dragon. And we don't have to fight. Things get worked out. And no one has to die. I don't see how that's evil. Selfish perhaps. But if you don't value yourself then the world will walk over you. The dragon also mentions a paladin he froze who lectured him. Which is why that other paladin got frozen. To me that paladin is an intruder. That barged into the dragons home. And made threats (probably) to that dragon. And was demanding. Resulting in his fate. Most likely because this paladin was more close minded. The paladin I mentioned earlier was more open minded. That's the difference.

Instead of making it about good/evil (which is a losing game) I make it about being understanding. Being judgemental is what often creates violence. Even in BG1 we have the order of the fist (I think it was called) going around tossing their weight. And even in candlekeep you end up getting captured (and I think you was going to be executed) by your own town. I've seen demons more loyal then that. And yes, dopplegangers. But believe others and mistrust me and that only goes to show how little you trust me.

This is more about fear then anything. And control and the lack of it. Along with observation and employing incentive. Someone that can't control their temper (let's say chaotic evil) is more of a threat/danger then someone that can control their actions. Because "Better the devil you know". It's hard to get through to someone that doesn't even think about what they do and makes excuses for it. More so when they're hypocrites.

The same however can be said for judgemental "good" people. That do nothing but judge and never try to understand. As they pretend to be nice/in the right yet don't even claim accountability/responsibility for anything they do. The paladin I mentioned earlier showed that she was considering another viewpoint. Open minded=good. Closed minded=bad. The former leads to understanding and working things out. The later just keep violence and conflict going. Regardless of situation or circumstance. This is why when a player character in a game like this will always have companions considering your viewpoint. Even if they struggle with it at first.

And I have to say, the bloodthristy dwarf from BG2 was an interesting character too. Even when I was good alligned. Even shares a little moment before the last boss. Reminded me of Gimli and Legolas from LOTR. He won't hesitate to axe someone if he's in a bad mood (he's bloodhtristy as hell). But to me, the good alligned player who never judges him, he was pleasent enough. Despite the differences. I actually found that young elf from the circus to be worse. She's a little fragile. Cowards always suffer. Which kind of circles back to fear. But you get those that can face the truth and those that can't. There's a reason honesty is so valued. And without that there's no trust. Which is why I quite like Jaheira. Even if you're on her bad side you can still work things out.

Now take all of that into account (even BG2 alone) and compare it to what we have in BG3.

So even though the kobolds did attack the town, provided you pass those persuasion checks, they'll always be honest. And if you help them out of a tight spot they won't make you a target. It's that simple. Look past the monsters instead of making targets. And that makes coexistence possible.

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Originally Posted by FelLich
Doing an "evil" playthrough atm and honestly you really do have to actively seek it out and commit to it with zero incentives. The Absolute cult is for all purposes a group of people that have been enslaved and don't realize it not to mention they'll stab you too. It also doesn't help that none of your companions really fall into the evil path. None of them make taking the evil path fun nor do any of them really rationalize doing bad things. That's the biggest issue honestly, if you're just running around being evil for the sake of evil and doing it by yourself it's a pretty limited path.

Yes, yes, yes. The first time I sided with Menthara,

I got approvals from Lae and Asterion, and I was really surprised. Why would they support that? They'd never mentioned anything about mistrusting the druids. Lae, a bit, but only in regard to removing the 'pole.

It made no sense.

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Originally Posted by colinl8
Originally Posted by FelLich
Doing an "evil" playthrough atm and honestly you really do have to actively seek it out and commit to it with zero incentives. The Absolute cult is for all purposes a group of people that have been enslaved and don't realize it not to mention they'll stab you too. It also doesn't help that none of your companions really fall into the evil path. None of them make taking the evil path fun nor do any of them really rationalize doing bad things. That's the biggest issue honestly, if you're just running around being evil for the sake of evil and doing it by yourself it's a pretty limited path.

Yes, yes, yes. The first time I sided with Menthara,

I got approvals from Lae and Asterion, and I was really surprised. Why would they support that? They'd never mentioned anything about mistrusting the druids. Lae, a bit, but only in regard to removing the 'pole.

It made no sense.

Astarion actually makes sense, since he is afraid to lose the tadpole, and makes no secret that he wants to find a way to control it and not remove it. Also, he will approve anything that is evil, and that's another reason for him. Now Lae' zel I have no idea why she would give Approval to anything that is in favor of the absolute when she knows it's related to the tadpole. Maybe because she sees the druids as weaklings and wants to side with someone she believes is stronger than them.

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Originally Posted by Avallonkao
he will approve anything that is evil, and that's another reason for him

That feels like it should be right, but what throws me off is the reaction to Raphael. The feeling I get is that

Az views Raph the same way he views Caz

at least, that's how his responses to subsequent dialogs shape up. So the 'pole seems like it shouldn't be in a different category for him, unless there's more info in later chapters that justifies separating the 'pole from Caz

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Without the tadpole
Astarion loses his protection from Cazador, and his only advantage (sunlight resistance). There is a dialogue where he tries to convince Tav about keeping the tadpole and that it is worth the dreams. In another dialogue he says it was the mind flayers that saved him from Cazador, so he doesn't view them the same as Raphael.
So Astarion being pro-tadpole makes sense, same with Gale and Raphael.

Lae'zel on the other hand just doesn't make sense to approve of anything pro-tadpole or pro-Absolute, because that is a betrayal of everyrlthing githyanki believe in. It felt the same when I was playing an evil gith wizard, there was just no reason to side with the crazy drow.

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Lae'zel likes strength: The druids and the tieflings a basically cowering in fear, the druids want to hide, the tieflings are mostly no fighters. The cultists are proactive (let's go and attack the druid grove), which is something, Lae'zel can get behind, because it is, how she was raised.
She doesn't always approves of evil things, mostly, she approves if you show strength and resolve or not helping someone weak, because the weak have no place in Githyanki society - for us, that is evil, for Lae'zel it's Tuesday.

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Lae'zel is fanatical about her queen. The dragon rider putting her down, even if it is a display of gith strength and arrogance, angers her because she thinks he betrayed the will of Vlaakith. And that is what the absolute cultists seem to be at this point (considering the evidence) - enemies of Vlaakith.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
Lae'zel likess strength: The druids and the tieflings a basically cowering in fear, the druids want to hide, the tieflings are mostly no fighters. The cultists are proactive (let's go and attack the druid grove), which is something, Lae'zel can get behind, because it is, how she was raised.
She doesn't always approves of evil things, mostly, she approves if you show strength and resolve or not helping someone weak, because the weak have no place in Githyanki society - for us, that is evil, for Lae'zel it's Tuesday.
This ...
Plus the fact that i bet Lae'zel is quite sure, that if they (read as: Githyanki nation) want ... they can wipe out the whole Absolute cult, with their Goddess herself, in one bussy afternoon. laugh

So there is really little to no reason to wonder about how much pro-, or anti-gith busines of this cult is. smile

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 16/08/21 09:35 AM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This ...
Plus the fact that i bet Lae'zel is quite sure, that if they (read as: Githyanki nation) want ... they can wipe out the whole Absolute cult, with their Goddess herself, in one bussy afternoon. laugh

So there is really little to no reason to wonder about how much pro-, or anti-gith busines of this cult is. smile
Well if Lae'zel thinks the giths could easily wipe the cult out, that would mean the cultist are weaklings (and frankly they are, since you beat them woth a low level character). Where is this supposed strength she approves of? Imo a githyanki would see the cultists as weak, because they have fallen for a ghaik deception. That is what it takes to battle mind flayers; not just military power, but also a strength of mind and iron will.

Lae'zel thinks even Raphael, who at this point comes off frankly as far more powerful than Minthara, is not worth admiration.

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I think it is more the attitude: The cult is proactive and wants to attack, the druids want to hide basically, the tieflings are afraid to fight.
I'm pretty sure, that Lae'zel looks down on everyone not gith, but she is more ok with those people, who take the initiative.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
I think it is more the attitude: The cult is proactive and wants to attack, the druids want to hide basically, the tieflings are afraid to fight.
I'm pretty sure, that Lae'zel looks down on everyone not gith, but she is more ok with those people, who take the initiative.
I'd not call this being proactive, since the cultists are blindly following the orders of the absolute. Rather it is the absolute that is being proactive here, but if Lae'zel believes this to be a mind flayer plot, she should not be approving of siding with them. Similar how Shadowheart admires those skilled in emotional manipulation like Raphael, but still disapproves of considering his deal.

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Originally Posted by Taramafor
I also remember having a conversation with a demon in hell and being told I make its skin itch when I'm good alligened.

That's actually not too far off, not all good aligned creatures would make a devils skin itch, but I remember reading somewhere or other that a person blessed by their god such as a paladin or a cleric makes a devil/demon physically uncomfortable and divine magic makes their skin itch/prickle/feel cold when they're near it even if it's not directed at them. Not sure how canon that is for D&D lore, but makes some sense imo.

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