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Maybe some people are intentionally derailing the thread because they want to get it closed?

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I think Pathfinder as a game, on its own will likely be a good game. The thing that ruins it for me is that Owlcat has elected to bundle optional materials with in-game items at significant cost. plus the cost for the 1st year of 'optional' DLC - even though that DLC is being developed at the same time as the primary game. Its basically $100 for the game in full.

I don't oppose DLC - but it shouldn't be this tiny piecemeal crap. I am hoping Larian does DLC that is entirely new modules separate from the main campaign. That's worth charging a significant price for especially for the multiplayer fans.

Owlcats pricing structure is something that I tie in with the general downfall of gaming and its a huge red flag - they will be selling "horse armor" DLC soon enough.


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Originally Posted by The Composer
Full stop on social politics regardless of which side of the isle you're on please. Thread will be closed if you can't keep it on topic.

Oh please, this 'both sides' stuff is getting a bit old at this point. Many EU countries have laws against racist, sexist or otherwise discriminatory and hate instigating speech so, why can't Larian simply take a stand saying there is no place for discriminatory language - be it sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. - on their forum ? If we do not accept this language on our streets and in our workplaces, why should it be given a voice online ? Especially given the inflammatory and provocative tone of OP's post, this 'bothsidesism' seems a bit weak, a fortiori given the contrast between on the one hand the absence of any interaction with forum members from larian's part on issue directly related to the BG3 game (e.g. some mega threads were created but people are still left in the dark regarding Larian's stance or decision in these topics) while on the other hand from the moment some new account makes low effort troll posts Larian comes in to declare the issue taboo.

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Originally Posted by SerraSerra
Originally Posted by The Composer
Full stop on social politics regardless of which side of the isle you're on please. Thread will be closed if you can't keep it on topic.

Oh please, this 'both sides' stuff is getting a bit old at this point. Many EU countries have laws against racist, sexist or otherwise discriminatory and hate instigating speech so, why can't Larian simply take a stand saying there is no place for discriminatory language - be it sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. - on their forum ? If we do not accept this language on our streets and in our workplaces, why should it be given a voice online ? Especially given the inflammatory and provocative tone of OP's post, this 'bothsidesism' seems a bit weak, a fortiori given the contrast between on the one hand the absence of any interaction with forum members from larian's part on issue directly related to the BG3 game (e.g. some mega threads were created but people are still left in the dark regarding Larian's stance or decision in these topics) while on the other hand from the moment some new account makes low effort troll posts Larian comes in to declare the issue taboo.

It would be nice if you did not get the thread shut down. You did see what the moderator wrote since you are directly responding to it, hartstikke bedankt.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think Pathfinder as a game, on its own will likely be a good game. The thing that ruins it for me is that Owlcat has elected to bundle optional materials with in-game items at significant cost. plus the cost for the 1st year of 'optional' DLC - even though that DLC is being developed at the same time as the primary game. Its basically $100 for the game in full.

I don't oppose DLC - but it shouldn't be this tiny piecemeal crap. I am hoping Larian does DLC that is entirely new modules separate from the main campaign. That's worth charging a significant price for especially for the multiplayer fans.

Owlcats pricing structure is something that I tie in with the general downfall of gaming and its a huge red flag - they will be selling "horse armor" DLC soon enough.
According to the steam page, it looks like the DLC is being released at the same time as the game?? Ick; not a fan of that. While it doesn't necessarily mean that content was carved out of the base game and put into DLC, it does mean that development resources that could have improved the base game were instead poured into these DLCs. DLC development should be reserved for after a game comes out and bugs are mainly fixed.

I'm fine with Commander Pack bundle that gives artbook/OST/map & small in-game items; the main rewards seem to be the digital artbook/ost, with the in-game items being a bonus.

And +1 for punishing offenders instead of entire threads.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Maybe some people are intentionally derailing the thread because they want to get it closed?

Then they may find that more than just a thread ends up closed.

Originally Posted by SerraSerra
Originally Posted by The Composer
Full stop on social politics regardless of which side of the isle you're on please. Thread will be closed if you can't keep it on topic.

Oh please, this 'both sides' stuff is getting a bit old at this point. Many EU countries have laws against racist, sexist or otherwise discriminatory and hate instigating speech so, why can't Larian simply take a stand saying there is no place for discriminatory language - be it sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. - on their forum ? If we do not accept this language on our streets and in our workplaces, why should it be given a voice online ? Especially given the inflammatory and provocative tone of OP's post, this 'bothsidesism' seems a bit weak, a fortiori given the contrast between on the one hand the absence of any interaction with forum members from larian's part on issue directly related to the BG3 game (e.g. some mega threads were created but people are still left in the dark regarding Larian's stance or decision in these topics) while on the other hand from the moment some new account makes low effort troll posts Larian comes in to declare the issue taboo.

I'm not one for saying things twice. 24 hour break to re-think how you act online for you.
Edit: Larian doesn't need to take a stand for discriminatory language, because for most of us, it's common sense and just... It has no place in a gaming forum; Everyone is welcome among us gamers, and that's a self-explanatory given. We'd rather moderate those who disagrees with that, because they are far and few between. Assume good intentions in the rest, until otherwise is proven. Off topic derailment no matter what it is, has better avenues online for it, than a gaming forum. People have derailed about gymnastics, female dancers, actual politics and other before, and that too gets a bonk on the head if it insists on continuing.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[...]

I am hoping Larian does DLC that is entirely new modules separate from the main campaign. That's worth charging a significant price for especially for the multiplayer fans.

Larian hasn't been particularly huge on DLC in the past, at least by traditional means us gamers think of. Closest thing I can think of would be the gift bags for DoS2, which I wouldn't really say was DLC per se personally, as the original mods were already available on the workshop and nexus; Rather it was to port some of the more popular mods for console players to get in on a small portion of the modding fun too. Unless things have changed in partnership with WoTC, I'm much more inclined to suspect a definitive edition with more content and polished content based on how 1.0 went in player opinion, than extra modules added. (But it would be kinda cool to have post-content though, as long as it's additive and not cut out of the base game to be re-sold as "new content". But there's nothing imo to indicate Larian has gone down that dark path.)

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think Pathfinder as a game, on its own will likely be a good game. The thing that ruins it for me is that Owlcat has elected to bundle optional materials with in-game items at significant cost. plus the cost for the 1st year of 'optional' DLC - even though that DLC is being developed at the same time as the primary game. Its basically $100 for the game in full.

I don't oppose DLC - but it shouldn't be this tiny piecemeal crap. I am hoping Larian does DLC that is entirely new modules separate from the main campaign. That's worth charging a significant price for especially for the multiplayer fans.

Owlcats pricing structure is something that I tie in with the general downfall of gaming and its a huge red flag - they will be selling "horse armor" DLC soon enough.
According to the steam page, it looks like the DLC is being released at the same time as the game?? Ick; not a fan of that. While it doesn't necessarily mean that content was carved out of the base game and put into DLC, it does mean that development resources that could have improved the base game were instead poured into these DLCs. DLC development should be reserved for after a game comes out and bugs are mainly fixed.

I'm fine with Commander Pack bundle that gives artbook/OST/map & small in-game items; the main rewards seem to be the digital artbook/ost, with the in-game items being a bonus.

And +1 for punishing offenders instead of entire threads.
?
Steam doesn't even list the DLCs for WotR yet. Only the season pass which is basically the preorder for the 3 following DLCs which will come later and not at release (some probably not even 2022).

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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[...]

I am hoping Larian does DLC that is entirely new modules separate from the main campaign. That's worth charging a significant price for especially for the multiplayer fans.

Larian hasn't been particularly huge on DLC in the past, at least by traditional means us gamers think of. Closest thing I can think of would be the gift bags for DoS2, which I wouldn't really say was DLC per se personally, as the original mods were already available on the workshop and nexus; Rather it was to port some of the more popular mods for console players to get in on a small portion of the modding fun too. Unless things have changed in partnership with WoTC, I'm much more inclined to suspect a definitive edition with more content and polished content based on how 1.0 went in player opinion, than extra modules added. (But it would be kinda cool to have post-content though, as long as it's additive and not cut out of the base game to be re-sold as "new content". But there's nothing imo to indicate Larian has gone down that dark path.)

So you are saying in regards to new - polished - modules we are more likely to get an entirely new game using the same engine than selling us a new module that can be added on. Or we need to look to modders to create that content.

And the expected Definitive Edition which will have new content.

This begs the question; is the majority of the work then creating the game story, maps, combat and dialogue or is it programming, bug fixing and modifying the actual engine?

Last edited by Blackheifer; 13/08/21 04:47 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think Pathfinder as a game, on its own will likely be a good game. The thing that ruins it for me is that Owlcat has elected to bundle optional materials with in-game items at significant cost. plus the cost for the 1st year of 'optional' DLC - even though that DLC is being developed at the same time as the primary game. Its basically $100 for the game in full.

I don't oppose DLC - but it shouldn't be this tiny piecemeal crap. I am hoping Larian does DLC that is entirely new modules separate from the main campaign. That's worth charging a significant price for especially for the multiplayer fans.

Owlcats pricing structure is something that I tie in with the general downfall of gaming and its a huge red flag - they will be selling "horse armor" DLC soon enough.
According to the steam page, it looks like the DLC is being released at the same time as the game?? Ick; not a fan of that. While it doesn't necessarily mean that content was carved out of the base game and put into DLC, it does mean that development resources that could have improved the base game were instead poured into these DLCs. DLC development should be reserved for after a game comes out and bugs are mainly fixed.

I'm fine with Commander Pack bundle that gives artbook/OST/map & small in-game items; the main rewards seem to be the digital artbook/ost, with the in-game items being a bonus.

And +1 for punishing offenders instead of entire threads.
?
Steam doesn't even list the DLCs for WotR yet. Only the season pass which is basically the preorder for the 3 following DLCs which will come later and not at release (some probably not even 2022).


Sure it does. Jump into the purchase page for the DLC and check the "About this content" bit

DLC #1

New additional campaign. Import your character from the main campaign to the moment of their greatest triumph — their victory over the Worldwound. Answer a plea from a powerful entity and leave Golarion behind to defend the space-time continuum against imminent collapse. Use your unparalleled mythic powers to do battle with truly invincible opponents. This additional campaign offers 7–8 hours of gameplay.

DLC #2

New additional campaign. The demon attack on Kenabres changed the lives of many. While the mythic hero and their loyal companions were busy liberating the city, the common folk had to find a way to survive, relying only on their humble skills.
Band together with other survivors and try to reach the Defender's Heart tavern, the last foothold of the crusader forces in the city. Choose who will join your group, and make difficult decisions about allocating scarce resources. Remember — in fire-ravaged Kenabres, every scroll and potion could make the difference not only in an individual fight, but also to your very survival. Act in the group's best interests or focus solely on your own well-being. Import your choices to the main campaign and look forward to seeing this story develop in other DLC. This additional campaign offers 6–7 hours of gameplay.

DLC #3

A new rogue-like mode with partial integration into the main campaign. In Alushinyrra's port, climb aboard a cursed ship that will transport you to a mysterious whirlpool lost amidst the Midnight Isles. Dive in and discover a dungeon whose proportions you can only guess at. Go exploring in search of glory, loot, and battles, and come face to face with a secret that will benefit either Nocticula, the mistress of the archipelago, or her enemies. The dungeon's levels, created using random zone generation, are populated with various enemies, devious traps, and secret rooms. You will return victorious to Alushinyrra — or else the cursed ship will return on its own, laden with trophies from the last expedition, to await new adventure-seekers.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
So you are saying in regards to new - polished - modules we are more likely to get an entirely new game using the same engine than selling us a new module that can be added on. Or we need to look to modders to create that content.

Assuming that the confirmed mod support includes access to the engine as with Dos1/2, then I dare with some confidence predict that a ton of people are going to try and re-create various campaigns from D&D in it (or their own new original ones), no doubt in my mind. In fact I've seen several people talk about it and have plans already, should the opportunity present itself in the future.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
This begs the question; is the majority of the work then creating the game story, maps, combat and dialogue or is it programming, bug fixing and modifying the actual engine?

Both, it's different teams and individuals involved in the particular roles, so... I wouldn't dare trying to guess any metrics on like "how much work" either is. I don't think they're even necessarily comparable. But I do know that the focus is on the main campaign for BG3 and all the work it involves, than anything else (such as other modules, GM mode etc). So if the focus isn't on GM mode, which you'd think be one of the big things people would want outside of a campaign, then I doubt much time goes elsewhere either. I'd like to dream about Larian realizing something I thought of earlier in Dos2's release, where most people that wanted to make a fully fledged GM campaign, ended up pretty much having to delve into the engine anyway; So personally I'd double down on improving the engine and make it more intuitive for content creation, so that most people with some intuition for software and technology can get into it and make their own Gm campaigns there instead. Fingers crossed...

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Steam doesn't even list the DLCs for WotR yet. Only the season pass which is basically the preorder for the 3 following DLCs which will come later and not at release (some probably not even 2022).
Ah, gotcha. I was misunderstanding the release date of the Season Pass as the release date for the DLCs. Still, I dislike the whole "Season Pass" thing that's come to be common in gaming. It's worse than pre-ordering. I have faith in Owlcat to produce these DLCs (though not necessarily faith in their good quality, given the reviews of Kingmaker's DLCs), but still...there's a whole slew of games where Season Passes are basically scams. Just make the DLCs, then release them for purchasing, and eventually bundle them together when they're all released.

Edit: The level of detail on the Season Pass steampage (7-8 hours of additional gameplay) does imply that the DLC has already been significantly worked on. Which again goes back to my point, that working on DLCs before the game has even released is...ick.

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Yeah the prioritization on the DLC does have me slightly worried. PoE2 did the exact same thing and we all know how that ended up. Though I don't think Owlcat's handling of it will be anywhere near as bad.

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I would not hold my breath for the best mods for BG3. When Neverwinter Nights 1 was released a lot of people complained it was to extremely hard to learn to create mods. What you can play BG3 mods classes not yet released? They have not created anything! They found some pre super early alpha classes of them and when they eventually are really released by Larian they can be very different. Now it can take a long time even years from now 2021 before best mods come out. We already have a thread it is to difficult to create mods in BG3. Now Pathfinder 2 is great in that way it let you replace character pictures. I can do it by myself and when done rest assurred my game of Pathfinder 2 will be as "nasty" as Witcher 3 was regarding to content smile. What there is no point so small character pictures in Pathfinder 2 unless you play on 70 inch TV? I have some experience in this I would be content with showing upper part of body and Face picture of course then it is not so freaking small picture. Many people in real life take pictures of them showing only upper body and face.

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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
So you are saying in regards to new - polished - modules we are more likely to get an entirely new game using the same engine than selling us a new module that can be added on. Or we need to look to modders to create that content.

Assuming that the confirmed mod support includes access to the engine as with Dos1/2, then I dare with some confidence predict that a ton of people are going to try and re-create various campaigns from D&D in it (or their own new original ones), no doubt in my mind. In fact I've seen several people talk about it and have plans already, should the opportunity present itself in the future.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
This begs the question; is the majority of the work then creating the game story, maps, combat and dialogue or is it programming, bug fixing and modifying the actual engine?

Both, it's different teams and individuals involved in the particular roles, so... I wouldn't dare trying to guess any metrics on like "how much work" either is. I don't think they're even necessarily comparable. But I do know that the focus is on the main campaign for BG3 and all the work it involves, than anything else (such as other modules, GM mode etc). So if the focus isn't on GM mode, which you'd think be one of the big things people would want outside of a campaign, then I doubt much time goes elsewhere either. I'd like to dream about Larian realizing something I thought of earlier in Dos2's release, where most people that wanted to make a fully fledged GM campaign, ended up pretty much having to delve into the engine anyway; So personally I'd double down on improving the engine and make it more intuitive for content creation, so that most people with some intuition for software and technology can get into it and make their own Gm campaigns there instead. Fingers crossed...

I could see Larian releasing a tool liek NWN did to make own adventures. I don't know, if that is doable, but it would make sense in a game like this.


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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
So you are saying in regards to new - polished - modules we are more likely to get an entirely new game using the same engine than selling us a new module that can be added on. Or we need to look to modders to create that content.

Assuming that the confirmed mod support includes access to the engine as with Dos1/2, then I dare with some confidence predict that a ton of people are going to try and re-create various campaigns from D&D in it (or their own new original ones), no doubt in my mind. In fact I've seen several people talk about it and have plans already, should the opportunity present itself in the future.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
This begs the question; is the majority of the work then creating the game story, maps, combat and dialogue or is it programming, bug fixing and modifying the actual engine?

Both, it's different teams and individuals involved in the particular roles, so... I wouldn't dare trying to guess any metrics on like "how much work" either is. I don't think they're even necessarily comparable. But I do know that the focus is on the main campaign for BG3 and all the work it involves, than anything else (such as other modules, GM mode etc). So if the focus isn't on GM mode, which you'd think be one of the big things people would want outside of a campaign, then I doubt much time goes elsewhere either. I'd like to dream about Larian realizing something I thought of earlier in Dos2's release, where most people that wanted to make a fully fledged GM campaign, ended up pretty much having to delve into the engine anyway; So personally I'd double down on improving the engine and make it more intuitive for content creation, so that most people with some intuition for software and technology can get into it and make their own Gm campaigns there instead. Fingers crossed...
You remind me of Neverwinter Nights. I might be talking out my backside here, they made the tools for building things first, and then made the campaigns with them? That takes a very, very specific project direction which BG3 isn't on.

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I don't think it's going to be anywhere near Skyrim levels of modding or Neverwinter Nights. I can't see Larian putting in a toolset to allow people to create their own campaign.

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I believe only a very few games would be Skyrim lvl of modding. But I do think we will be able to get great mods, especially since this game is a more adult one, and that will def grab the attention of modders from all places. And besides, Larian seems to be very aware that the modding community can contribute to making a game live for years more with mods. They even take many mods from the community and turned them into official DLCs on DOS2. So I wouldn't worry about this, once the game is fully released I think we will have a great time in the modding area.

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I would not hold my breath for the best mods for BG3. When Neverwinter Nights 1 was released a lot of people complained it was to extremely hard to learn to create mods. What you can play BG3 mods classes not yet released? They have not created anything!

If I were you I would check the visual parts of the mods, yeah many things are being unlocked, but also being created, as hairs, textures, head meshes even, even with little support on an EA state. So I think once the game is fully released we will be able to see many creations from the modders.

If a game is loved by the modding community it will have wonders.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I don't think it's going to be anywhere near Skyrim levels of modding or Neverwinter Nights. I can't see Larian putting in a toolset to allow people to create their own campaign.
No 😫 . Please Larian when I did say best mods I want to have adventures smile as Newerwinter Nights 1 thank you. That is the best mods.

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I suprised how no one has mentioend how tedious the first Pathfinder game was, not saying WOTR will be this way but I found the first one just such a slog...here is hoping its "sequel" will be better.

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Originally Posted by The Composer
Larian hasn't been particularly huge on DLC in the past, at least by traditional means us gamers think of. Closest thing I can think of would be the gift bags for DoS2, which I wouldn't really say was DLC per se personally, as the original mods were already available on the workshop and nexus; Rather it was to port some of the more popular mods for console players to get in on a small portion of the modding fun too. Unless things have changed in partnership with WoTC, I'm much more inclined to suspect a definitive edition with more content and polished content based on how 1.0 went in player opinion, than extra modules added. (But it would be kinda cool to have post-content though, as long as it's additive and not cut out of the base game to be re-sold as "new content". But there's nothing imo to indicate Larian has gone down that dark path.)
Maybe because a DLC in DOS2 where you are already maxed out during the main campaign wouldn't make much sense, but given that BG3's max level will for sure not hit 20, the idea of waiting 5+ years to max out my character is not very pleasant.

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