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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Self-criticism is big at Obsidian, unlike certain other peer studios that seem to be governed more by ego and hubris.
I would be careful with making definite statement like that. Personally I love developers doing Post Mortem on games - I just find it fascinating to hear dev's viewpoint as well as additional insight into the development. Obsidian has been pretty open with those - or at least Josh Sawyer was. I think his presentations are well put together and insightful. In Deadfire one, he even didn't hold from expressing his frustration with whoever in management forced his hand to add ship combat during fig campaign - that's something that surprised me.

But I think it is less likely that other devs aren't thinking or analyzing failings of their titles, but that they will not be willing (or allowed) to criticise their product publicly. I do wonder, if under Microsoft we will see brutal post-mortems like Josh's Deadfire one - partially, because other leads might not be into public speaking the way Josh is, and because Microsoft might not be happy to see their bought studios posting videos criticising their own product. I would be shocked if majority of devs didn't have plenty of things they weren't happy about. It's just they won't do it publically.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
This is what makes Obsidian above the rest. They actually sincerely make an attempt to reevaluate and critique their own games and the approaches they have taken, and are not afraid to admit if something did not work out as they expected or where they were wrong about something or regret a choice they made. Self-criticism is big at Obsidian, unlike certain other peer studios that seem to be governed more by ego and hubris.

That was after PoE2 bombed so hard that everyone knew, and they obviously couldn't hide it under any ambiguity either.

Considering that it's fairly known that stuff like ship combat was basically forced into the game by upper management, let's hope they don't try to take an active role in Avowed's development this time around.

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[rant]
I wish we could provide constructive feedback about one game without having to rely on another game as a model. If every studio did this, genres like RPGs would all become formless blobs of copied features, rather than games with personalities of their own. I for one am glad that the RPG genre is big enough, and flexible enough, to allow forms of passionate organic expression, rather than "this is not what an RPG should be like so let's just copy that other game". Forgive me for the spurious comparison, but this is not the smartphone market, and thank goodness for that.

And, really, I think some forum members should chill with the attacks on developers. Studios are not out to get you or to insult your personal sensitivities. I believe that Larian and Owlcat want what's best for their game and truly wish to deliver a good game. There are companies out there that have legitimately bad practices (with recent events, I think we can all think of one in particular), but I genuinely believe that both Larian and Owlcat are deeply passionate about their game and wish to deliver the best product possible. A little appreciation goes a long way, especially when those studios have a proven track record of listening to their communities.
[/rant]

Back on topic: I haven't played WotR or even Kingmaker, but I'm looking forward to my first playthrough WoTR on September 2nd. I love BG3 and it probably has the potential of becoming one of my all-time favorite games if act 1 is representative of the rest of the game, though I realize that there are things I would personally like to improve with the game (some things which I've addressed in the feedback section of the forum).

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In all fairness Swen VIncke in his DOS 2 post-mortem made a lot of self-criticizing as well.

The framing was also fairly similar to what Sawyer said about some issues with POE 2: "We didn't list to our community under the impression that they were a vocal minority and they would come around appreciating what we did... And what do you know? It ended up being something that even the public at large criticized".

The whole thing is worth watching, but an example is here with the armor system:




It's minute 40:00 if the direct timestamp doesn't work for you.

Last edited by Tuco; 19/08/21 07:01 PM.

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That's a fairly interesting analysis.

Granted, I don't have the time to listen to the whole video, but I wonder if he ever talks about the origin system or the mass culling at the end of Act 1? If not, I forsee a second post-mortem presentation for BG3. Or perhaps not, because the issues with the armor system are immediately noticeable just like the arguments revolving around height advantage and so on, while the effects of the origin system and the act 1 culling would have extremely subtle narrative effects in comparison.

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Hahaa Tuco and Saito Hikari I dont giva a shit about DOS 2 ramblings.

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
No I disagree with you. Skyrim is total shit for being roleplaying game. I bought it for 10 euro and it is the last time I believe Elder Scrolls games are good. The Skyrim graphics were not bad though not very good and I was delighted you could get mod to make it for adults only. Witcher 3 is roleplaying game with adults content even without any mods. Witcher 3 graphics is better then Skyrim graphics.Well and I have not been interested in Scifi theme or modern time games unles it is strategy or say example shooter like Halo or MMO. Well and unlike many of you I love also MMO games. Cyeperpunk 2077 total failure to me doesn't support multiplayer. If do Cyberpunk 2077 without multiplayer then AI should be super good and not idiots. Cyeperpunk 2077 is a complete failure compared to the HYPE it was supposed to be. Grand Theft 5 auto AI is better then Cyberpunk 2077 AI and the police chase is at least fairly realistic feeling in Grand Theft Auto 5. Well and after 2021 patch Cyberpunk 2077 still have lots bugs.
I am not surprisedthat you got various titty mods for Skyrim and then felt underwhelmed by it as a game. Skyrim has its flaws, sure, but it's not that bad. Just rather light weight. And having everybody walk around with obvious modern day plastic surgery and aggressive makeup and photoshopped faces is not going to help the immersion one bit. It just makes everything look completely absurd.

As for the Witchers, there certainly is role-playing elements in it, but it feels to me that too much focus is placed on player skill rather than character skill. That's a trait of action games. Still, there is some character-definition in it and there is a fair amount of dialogue and there is consequences to choices. So I'm not willing to reject the franchise as "not RPGs", but they're not really the deepest RPGs either.

MMO's, yes, of course you'd be a fan. To my knowledge there isn't an MMO out there that isn't about repetitive grinding, with an absolutely pathetic story that has more problems than the last season of GoT. Being a tiny bit blunt, I'm occasionally hard pressed to find people that I feel like having a conversation with, so why would I then want to spend hours playing a game with bunch of of the people that I don't really want much to do with in the first place? Sure, call me antisocial, but if I wanted some clowns to run around and be randomly incomptent in my games, I'd probably be playing Counter Strike.

Anyway, it seems to me that the "RPG" of MMORPG is really to suggest that they're the same form of "role-playing game" as the Diablos, the Path of Exiles, and what have you. Meaning really just action clickers with player-directed stat upgrades and mindblowing item grinding. Imagine running that Boddhi boss lady 500 times for good drops, totally makes sense, right? Or maybe you'd need to kill Lord Firecracker 1000 times to have a 5% chance of getting Carsomyr, right? Awesomesauce!!! (No, not really). Point is, anything and everything that makes any game more MMO-like is, in my opinion, hopeless garbage that needs to take a quick hop into the fires of Mount Doom. Just my opinon, of course.

Cyperpunk 77, indeed a total flop, but MP is hardly the reason. There's no MP that could save that game. It has a railroading and janky storyline that really isn't about the player character, its environment lacks interactivity, and there's really not a whole lot of character development for the protagonist. The dramatic majority of quests in the game are random fedex or assassination jobs that have zero impact on anything. The few times it matters whether you've done a quest, it doesn't matter at all how you did it, whether you went full murder hobo or peacenik. The itemization scheme of the game makes exploration moot, and while the city looks glorious, there's really not a whole lot of effort put into designing with verticality in mind. There's rarely ever any reward to climbing up and it's usually not possible to go below.

And in action terms, the AI is rubbish, the enemies are all the same with marginal visual differences, the weapon variety is lacking, and CDPR completely failed to set up truly "epic fights", in no small part because of how much impact character level has. Overlevel and you're nearly immortal and just pwning like a madman, underlevel and you get one-shotted from a random gunshot in your general direction. Reducing the game's problems to just being lack of MP, bad AI, and bugs is selling CDPR short in terms of the rank incompetence on display. The game isn't just bad, it's like if a clusterfuck met a disaster that it really liked and produced a whole family of purified awful.

Getting back to this topic, WotR. A pathfinder game, meaning a game using a crack-snorting variant of the D&D 3.5E ruleset. I'm sure it does get a lot of things right and from what I can tell, it looks like it does have some more Baldurian design elements, but I really don't like 3E that much, and I very much suspect that WotR late game gameplay will either be quite doable, if you've optimized the everlasting hell out of your character and your companions, or it will be completely insane, if you've taken a role-playing approach and just picked whatever "felt right". And 3E optimization is hard. I say that as someone with a university degree. Trying to figure out all the nuance in all the race and class options and the exact right time to take this or that class for access to this feat or that class skill is more work than I put into some of my classes, back in the day. That's frankly more work than I feel like putting into a game that I'm playing for fun. The alternative appears to be the cookie cutter approach, which gets old real fast. Do I want that in BG3? Not really. Were BG1 and 2 like that? Not at all.

Frankly, most of these games shouldn't be an inspiration for BG3 in any imaginable way. BG1, BG2, PST, maybe a few popular books on how to design user interfaces, maybe a book on human-computer interaction, and that's really all Larian needed to focus on. They are well versed in everything else they need to make a great game, after all. Frankly, I worry some times that Bethesda managed to come closer to the originals with their first modern Fallout sequel than Larian is aiming to do with BG3. And to be brutally honest, I am very worried about all the MP nonsense that appears to be part of the single player experience that Larian has in mind.

I only wanted to correct a few things...
This is for adults only talk. Please do no read if you are sensitive:

The mod in Skyrim does not give as you describe "titty modes" sounds like half naked to me it does give 100% full nudity for women only. Now what I found even me a sligthly odd was the feeling when the NPC:s still did their same AI routine tasks regardless.

When I said I had in POE and game like that where you can manually change character portrait it becomes to small for my taste to have full body picure, In those cases I use half body naked aka as you describe titties and face only



I can not really speak for all MMOS. but the end fo the day expericence can vary much of the GUILD your are member on how friendly your other players are in the guild you are member of.

Regarding NPC choice in the hidden spoiler fact ... I did today see in movie theaters as an exception (not my usual taste) a Comedy movie Free Guy.
I liked it fairly much that is pretty much about NPC and AI gaming and players and game developers.
Well not super movie, but I rate it 7/10 and do not regret seeing it. This from me typically Horror and Action movie fan.

I agree with you like more the user interface of BG1 and BG2 then BG3... BG3 controlling camera and user interface feels average to me at best according to me BG3 weakest point. I am not those hardcore DnD that must have freaking somatic component to spell casting that in many pen and paper session GM choose to ignore that rule completely about somatic spell casting aka must have one hand free.

Since I have not played Pathfinder 2 so I can not say much really about its interface or camera controlling.

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Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Hahaa Tuco and Saito Hikari I dont giva a shit about DOS 2 ramblings.
...Ok?

Quote
Since I have not played Pathfinder 2 so I can not say much really about its interface or camera controlling.
But we all know that's not going to stop you.

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i remember when i first started modding Skyrim...loverslab? What's that?

[Linked Image from memegenerator.net]

but let's not talk about Skyrim modding. Tis a silly place.

On topic: 2 weeks to go! I'm really curious to see how the overall tone feels compared to BG3.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i remember when i first started modding Skyrim...loverslab? What's that?

[Linked Image from memegenerator.net]

but let's not talk about Skyrim modding. Tis a silly place.

On topic: 2 weeks to go! I'm really curious to see how the overall tone feels compared to BG3.
Well as I also mentioned in previous post a bit a spinoff from that I would find it very interesting if they would create a true AI as in Comedy movie Free Guy that I did see today. In all games AI seems even at best very limited.

Well neither BG3 or Pathfinder 2 will have that level of very high true AI.

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I am not even interested in any modding talk either. It's such an inane and pointless conversation to have when literally anything becomes a better game tailored to anyone's specific preferences when modded. The only difference is which games are popular enough to receive such mod support to begin with, and the ease of doing it (as in whether it has official mod support).

I mean, sure, modding had a huge effect on Kingmaker's popularity in the end, the famous turn-based mod created about 8 months after release later being officially supported by the devs themselves. But it's also important to note that the way the Pathfinder games still split actions into turns in the background even during RTwP is what allowed for the mod to exist to begin with. Anyone expecting something like RTwP to be modded into BG3 in turn is going to be disappointed.

Okay, I changed my mind, maybe mod talk is pretty interesting from a gameplay analysis level rather than this weird nudity tangent. Maybe someone within the BG1 and 2 community might be pissed off enough about the series pivoting into strict turn-based to try. It is possible in theory, considering the game already runs in real time outside of combat. The big hurdle is determining how you would handle transitioning from using one skill into the next, and the lack of an apparent pause ability even when opening the menu.

You know what would be REALLY neat, from a player convenience and an experimental standpoint? If you had the option to let the game take control of your party members, either to speed things along in an effort to address the big complaint about turn-based and/or observe what the computer thinks the best thing to do is while potentially learning something along the way. A mod to do that would be huge.

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Well I would hope (and I fear that is hope in vain) BG3 could go that level of modding players could create adventures as in Neverwinter Nights 1 that other players can play, but I fear it is a dream only. Solasta have Dungeon creator, but even that is not Neverwinter Nights 1 modding where you can create anything the sky is the limit for environment you can have forests, mountains, seas a city adventure or whatever as surroundings in your world. Well and then you can guess what nasty thing I can wait patiently for in mod content... but enough of that I am sure you figured it out by now.

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D:OS2 had an officially supported campaign creator. It never went anywhere because by all accounts, it was awkward to work with. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if whatever tool BG3 comes up with meets the same fate. Fanciness shouldn't take precedence over ease of use.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1356308905

The above is literally the only custom campaign I tried out for D:OS2, some 2 or 3 years ago. I am also heavily unsurprised that it's probably the only well known one. Digging around in google tells me that a community focused on creating custom campaigns in DOS2 straight up doesn't exist. I'm also not surprised that Larian has yet to promise a campaign editor for BG3 as a result.

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I have actually not had the opportunity to actually play PF:WotR yet, but I have been stalking it through other players (thanks, Saito for getting me started laugh ), and I been doing my homework regarding it.

Imma just make a short list of the most important aspects (imo) to keep the post semi-clean:

Combat: I actually enjoy Larian's "somewhat" flawed TB combat more than the RTwP (with TB option) of PF. DOS2 brought me into CRPGs and with my TB-heavy background - the style of DoS2 combat always felt easier for me than RTwP (although, I've gotten much better than I was 8 months ago laugh ). From what I've seen (however, I cannot say with 100% certainty until I've actually played the game), WotR seems to easily be as "cluster-forky" as PF:KM in terms of combat. ... And I do hope they skip the legendary difficulty scaling that I've heard regarding PF:KM's release. x] Either way - I hardly play either game for the combat mechanics, so as far as they are both "acceptable" in terms of combat, I'll endure. :]

Story: One of the things I liked less about PF:KM was that you *had* to embark on a quest to become a ruler (and hence "king maker"). I struggle with this perspective unless I am going the full evil route (which I usually do on my second playthrough). WotR's story is easier for me to "adapt" my character into - but similarly to many other "power focused" cRPGs (such as DA:I), I struggle a bit with the entire thing about "being the chosen one." Opposing a lot of people in these forums, my base character is based off my TT character and hence not "made" for being the solo leader of the group. :] Roleplayers will probably understand what I mean, even if I feel like I explained it poorly laugh Bear with me, I have not had enough sleep due to being sick. ANYWAYS, as for the story in it's core - I do not know the entire WotR story nor the entire BG3 story yet, so I cannot say anything definite here either. c:

Choices and Consequences: Now this is something that PF:KM already blew me away in during the very first "introduction." Owlcat handle choice and consequence very, very, very well. Unsurprisingly, Owlcat seems to have pushed themselves even harder and from all I've seen, I've been positively surprised. It is difficult to not stay immersed in WotR when the entire world seems to react to your actions. BG3 has thus far not impressed me regarding choices and consequences, but I am willing to give Larian benefit of the doubt that this is more of a EA-issue and bug-related issue. ... ... ... However, the legendary issues of DoS2 in the subject does make me slightly nervous...

Companions: I am a sucker for companions, and for me - they are a HUGE part of the game. Equally huge to my co-players in the TT version. Good wriiting, character development and the feeling of actually bonding as a group is EXTREMELY important to me. Now, I actually never had much of a issue with the personality of our companions in BG3 - in fact, I thought they all reacted rather reasonably considering their position. And I do know that Larian know how to write good character development from "harsh" characters (Sebille <3), so I am rather certain that our companions in BG3 have a lot more to them than what we'll see in EA. HOWEVER - WotR has blown me away in the way that they handled companions. I thought PF:KM did a pretty neat job with companions, but everything about WotR companions just makes me feel joyous. The way that they managed to weave evil-aligned companions to match a good-aligned party AND LET IT MAKE SENSE has just surpassed all expectations I had. WotR companion dialogues are absolutely amazing to read and I am not bothered one bit by not everything being voiced as it is written so damn well that you can HEAR the character's voices in your head as you read the dialogue. I had the same experience in PF:KM (to the point where I actually forgot they were not voiced until it was pointed out to me), but it seems to be EVEN more so in WotR.


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A lot of writers forget that evil is often pragmatic, rather than showy and doing everything for laughs. Truly well-meaning good companions shouldn't turn down actual help purely for the sake of moralizing or keeping up an image either, especially with the stakes so high as it is. It's the one thing that makes WotR's evil companions (and the cast as a whole) really stand out compared to the few unambiguously evil companions in other cRPGs, even Kingmaker.

Granted, that's not to say that displays of outright showy evil don't exist among WotR's cast. But those situations are made a lot more poignant among the sheer variety you get with the cast.

Two more weeks to go...

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Self-criticism is big at Obsidian, unlike certain other peer studios that seem to be governed more by ego and hubris.
I would be careful with making definite statement like that. Personally I love developers doing Post Mortem on games - I just find it fascinating to hear dev's viewpoint as well as additional insight into the development. Obsidian has been pretty open with those - or at least Josh Sawyer was. I think his presentations are well put together and insightful. In Deadfire one, he even didn't hold from expressing his frustration with whoever in management forced his hand to add ship combat during fig campaign - that's something that surprised me.

But I think it is less likely that other devs aren't thinking or analyzing failings of their titles, but that they will not be willing (or allowed) to criticise their product publicly. I do wonder, if under Microsoft we will see brutal post-mortems like Josh's Deadfire one - partially, because other leads might not be into public speaking the way Josh is, and because Microsoft might not be happy to see their bought studios posting videos criticising their own product. I would be shocked if majority of devs didn't have plenty of things they weren't happy about. It's just they won't do it publically.
I can accept that not all developers may have the freedom to be self-critical in public, but I would at least expect to see their self-criticism reflected in subsequent games they make.
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
That was after PoE2 bombed so hard that everyone knew, and they obviously couldn't hide it under any ambiguity either.
"Bombed so hard" is a blatant exaggeration unsupported by the facts.
Originally Posted by Tuco
In all fairness Swen VIncke in his DOS 2 post-mortem made a lot of self-criticizing as well.
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

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PoE 2 had fairly underwhelming sales at launch but over time it caught up a bit.
The game at this point made back its cost a while ago and started to finally making money, so it can't exactly be dismissed as a complete failure.

Still, a bit unlikely to see Obsidian rushing to make another one for a while...


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Originally Posted by kanisatha
"Bombed so hard" is a blatant exaggeration unsupported by the facts.

We were both there at launch and we saw what happened. It caught up eventually but that was after years worth of intense word of mouth and a ton of sales. Publishers weigh launch numbers far higher than long term sales anyway. In the eyes of Obsidian, the launch was enough of a dud by their standards to later openly admit that it sold way under expectations and that they weren't planning on a sequel for a while. It's kinda unambiguous if even the developer is openly admitting that.

Maybe 'bombed so hard' is a bit strong of a descriptor. But everyone knew the launch performance wasn't up to par regardless.

Avowed veering straight into first person RPG with no hint of a PoE3 in sight is rather telling as well. Though it's likely that they planned on Avowed for a while, PoE2's earlier performance most likely meant that they wouldn't be able to complete the project without additional funding from Microsoft.

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Fucking first person again.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
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Hey look, we aren't hallucinating in regards to the WotR companions.

(Potential spoilers below)

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...hink_daeran_managed_to_seduce_my_player/

I told [Daeran] he can't be in the council room so he shouts his advice from the balcony. I really like the writing for him.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/p70jal/i_love_the_party_dynamics_in_the_game/

For example, I was talking to the brother of a certain traitor and during the entire conversation every person in the party chipped in from Cammelia noting his craftsmanship, Sosiel noting the brother bond and Ember saying he was kind and treated her with charity. Better yet Daeran then followed up on Ember's comment by mocking the guy for treating Ember kindly and then consorting with demons so woe was him.

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Speaking of which:

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1428767638205784068

Aside for the fact that Sawyer is apparently playing Kingmaker for the first time, the news to me is that he's working on a title that isn't either TOW 2 or Avowed.


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