Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General BG3 potential sales and what this means for D&D and CRPGS

I did enjoy DAI mostly. The hints and lorestuff, Composer mentioned, played a big role in that, as did the companions and some quests. What I didn't like, were the often boring sidequests and big, sometimes empty, maps.

Oh, and the combat was fairly terrible too.

DAI was quite interesting to me for a couple of reasons. First of all, at the point of release the visuals were really breath-taking. The dragons are truly another level. The problem i have with DAI i think i probably played the game wrong? I've been playing the game in RTwP. After spending couple hundred of hours and completed the main game and DLC i only found that people were mostly playing the game in real-time.

The issue for me with DAI was it's a grind fest. It kinda feels like really a single player MMO. side quests weren't interesting for me but really just a grind-fest. I played on the highest difficulty and... I before you max out your build, i find it kind of really immersion breaking that i can't recall how many immolate that i have to spent in nuking a simple enemy before it dies. Not only that most of the encounter has only standard 3 enemies and most of their HP are crazily inflated.

The vanilla game didn't post much of a difficulty but the DLC was the testament of the strength of the build. The characters weren't that memorable for me though.

Anyway that's enough about DAI. Back on topic regarding sales. I'm not sure what will be Larian or WoTC roadmap for the BG franchise. I think it's safe to say BG3 with expansion would cap the level to 11 - 13? Just wild guess. Compared to Wrath of the Righteous where we can max the level cap on top with Mythic powers, i do like some high level gameplay.

I think it will be superbly difficult for Larian to pull a full 20 level campaign for Baldur's Gate 4?

DAI combat was abysmal. They tried to reinvent RTwP with that atrocious tactical camera nonsense that was jank af. It was a button masher with barely a sliver of party mechanics. Period.

Writing was great in terms if new lore, especially elven stuff. So much new lore and plot threads that I am very excited for DA4.

However…trying to say that the writing/storytelling in that game was deep or complex is laughable. I am sorry…but they attempted to add faux complexity to all the lore of the races and classes from DAO…and it was a complete failure. It was exposition dump after exposition dump. Examples:

Vivian preaching to you about how not all circles are bad.
The elf mage who specializes in animals preaches that not all templars are bad.
Cullen explain that Templar vows of chastity are just a choice (a complete lore rewrite so fans could bone him btw).
Solas explaining why blood magic is really not that bad.
Iron Bull explaining how the little man is not all that affected by living under the Qun, so it is not that bad
Dorian explaining how slavery in Tevinter is really not that bad.

God…so many more.

This is not letting a story develop through interactions and narrative (which imho is what good writing does). This is having npcs spewing a bunch of “you thought you knew something but I will tell you that it is more complicated!” aha moment garbage. So boring.

Still…the elven lore stuff was fun. And I will likely play DA4. I just hope it is written better, personally.


Oh…and dear god…I wish they would move away from the frostbite engine. Uggg…

I loathed the RTwP implementation in DA:I, mainly because it was extremely difficult to assign tasks to team mates... as soon as I switched focus to somebody else they would go back to whatever they wanted to do (or do nothing if the AI was toggled off).

It was a little more fun when I just ignored companions and just pretended that they were AI controlled NPC's that just happened to be "helping" me, but that was a far cry from the party control available in DA:O (and to a lesser extend in DA2).

I've heard that the story is good, but I faltered on the above mentioned combat plus the MMO style open would full of boring filler quests.

I think Inquisition was alright in terms of the character writing department in the end. Didn't banter as much as they should have, but I've come to understand that this is due to a bug that literally never got fixed, meaning you need to download a fan-made patch to fix the infrequent party banter while out in the field. The fact that Bioware ignored this is incredibly disappointing in terms of theorizing about where their priorities lie.

I highly disliked the actual gameplay though. How the combat system is designed and how movement feels super janky whenever you come across any slope or rock that you have to jump over is one thing, but the more disappointing thing to me is how it feels like the class/specialization system has been steadily regressing since DAO. It's to the point where the Inquisitor isn't functionally any different than any of the companions that specialize into the same classes that the Inquisitor chooses to pursue, besides possessing 2-3 unique skills that you may not ever bother to use due to limited hotbar space and questionable utility.

I recently started replaying it off and on with a mod that removed class restrictions for the Inquisitor, and it made things a lot more interesting. Though I can see why Bioware imposed such restrictions on the class/build system.

Thankfully, the next game might be a lot more interesting in regards to character customization. I'm sure there's a reason why a fair amount of the promotional material we've seen so far prominently features an unknown character that appears to be an arcane archer, a concept that has yet to exist in any of the DA games.

A range of 2 to 5 M means exactly that: it could be as low as 2 M or as high as 5 M. You are choosing to go with the highest possible number within that range. And I am saying I don't buy that for even a second. I myself am not throwing out any numbers for D:OS2 sales. I'm merely saying you guys' unsubstantiated claim of 5 M is silly to me, and if I had to guess I would guess the low end of that range. Ultimately we're all guessing because none of us has the true number. You are choosing to high-ball the number; I'm choosing to low-ball it. That's it.

Everything some of you are saying about combat in DA:I, I would say about combat in BG3.

Lol DA?`Dragon age is SHIT. I did play it and it was shit.

This is good:

Well not so much true... Ashes of Creation MMO has also good PvE...
However you can not play Ashes of Creation MMO without PvP and SUBFEE and many people since it is a MMO.

Well and Ashes of Creation MMO has also many mounts:


IT is true Ashes of Creation MMO will not win Witcher 3 likely in how many sales that have sold more then 35 millions.
However since it has SUBFEE it could get more money then Witcher 3.... and MAYBE millions will play it...

Well and sigh BG3 have no rideable mounts from what I have heard unless you count seeing a Gityanki NPC riding a Dragon from distance.

On the other hand since BG3 is not enormous world as Ashes of Creation and BG3 also have teleport stones (though you need to discover them to be able to use them) there is less need for mounts in BG3. Ashes of Creation world area is extreeme huge. I dont care what game you say Witcher 3 or POE2 or DA or whatever none of them has so HUGE area as Ashes of Creation!

Ashes of Creation MMO will be the biggest FANTASY medieval technology world created.

Ok in theory Starcitizen MMO is bigger since it is a freaking Universe but I consider it SCAM perhaps never relased.

Flying mounts is extreemly hard to get in Ashes of Creation MMO so travelling in that MMO if you want to explore whole world would take a massive amount of time. There is no fantasy medieval technology roughly World that is bigger then the world in area Ashes of Creation MMO enough said!

Well and massive PvP battles 250 vs 250 players witch have never been done before with so many players doing PvP in an PvP area with so high graphics like UNREAL 4 engine very good looking graphics!

BG3 is still excellent. It is possible BG3 wins in sales how many buy then Ashes of Creation MMO, but since the latter has monthly subfee I believe Ashes of Creation MMO will earn more money.

I do not see them in direct competition since BG3 is cooperative PvE with maximum up to 4 players or single player while in Ashes of Creation MMO it is impossible to avoid PvP. Well I want to play BG3 due to its PvE content and main reason Ashes of Creation interest me is the PvP though it will also have example PvE raids and PvE content.

Oh and Ashes of Creation MMO has already started earning money! It costs freaking 500 dollars to get access to play it in ALPHA! I have not played it since so expensive 500 dollars to get access to ALPHA Ashes of Creation MMO, but when the price get normal then I am interested.

So my take-away from all Terminator says is "yadda yadda yadda I love mounts...yadda yadda yadda I love FLYING mounts even more....yadda yadda yadda I love Asses of Creation cause it has FLYING MOUNTS"

Also "I haven't played or tested Asses of Creation because it costs an insane $500 to test right now, but it is still awesome because it has FLYING MOUNTs, but as soon as I can afford it (or plug it enough they give it to me free) I will be playing it because it has FLYING MOUNTS, it is awesome and Solasta, Pathfinder, and Witcher all suck toes". But BG3 is okay also because it too has multiplayer function, even if it lacks FLYING MOUNTS.

Am I missing anything important in his in depth evaluation?

Sadly, I have no use personally for coop/multiplayer play in such games, and couldn't give a rats ass about FLYING MOUNTS - but other than than I'm convinced - of something I think.

Seems like your average Terminator rant: incoherent, based on questionable or downright puzzling logic and mostly unrelated to the topic at hand.

Meh…I find MMO’s boring. Quantity over quality, and always full of microtrans trash. I doubt there will be any real influence of those shopping mall games on good rpgs. At least I hope not.

How BG3’s popularity will influence rpgs in the future? I imagine a move from text based to more cinematic as number one, and a continual shafting of solid single player mechanics for multiplayer elements as number two. However…it all depends on how much it actually sells.

You are correct about specially many ASIAN MMOS have annoying microtransactions.
WOW MMO and Ashes of Creation you can not become more powerful with microtransactions. They have microtransactions perhaps but it is of cosmetic nature much like in Guild Wars 2.

There is nothing wrong loving single player games. Personally I consider Witcher 3 one of the best made single player games made. Now BG1, BG2 and BG3 while you can play them in single player they support also cooperative multiplayer and thus I do not rate them as only single player games.

This is subjective taste. There will always be people who like single player above all. Well then there are people like me that like both multiplayer and single player. Finally there are also some player that only play multiplayer games or even only MMO:s

Your taste is not wrong it is apples vs oranges.


It was the newest news video that mount video less then a week old. I did post two other videos if you want more info see them about the Ashes of Creation MMO. Flying mounts in Ashes of Creation will not be like in WOW MMO everybody has them. They are very rare reserved to some VIP players like elected Major or say the best PvP player that leads the nodes PvP faction in a war vs enemies. I dont know who get access to flying mounts but from I understood an average player will not get a flying mount likely. Good news there are lots of different cool ground mounts the huge majority of mounts will be ground mounts in Ashes of Creation MMO.

I also explained why mounts in BG3 is less important. BG3 world area is very small to the enormous huge world of AOC MMO. In addition BG3 have teleport nodes. I still thing mounts would be super nice in BG3. However that is not a mandatory must have thing it is ok if BG3 have no mounts I think.

On this forums people are all over DA = Dragon Age which I bought long time ago and regret it never finished that crap game. Everytime I see a post about DA I think what could not care less, but whatever let people post what they want.

On sales I believe BG3 could win Ashes of Creation MMO. In total amount of money made? I am not sure even if Witcher 3 can win MMO Ashes of Creation that huge amount of people already have paid 500 dollars for to access Early Access Alpha. Well and then on top of that subfee even if you get it for say more normal price there is subfee monthly fee in Ashes of Creation MMO.

MMO's aren't necessarily boring - my wife I were long time EQ enthusiasts, mostly due to the Raid end of the game, which was generally quite complex and challenging.

Sadly, morning sickness (water, flight and other environmental issues sent her running for the porcelain god) and then mom stuff ended my wife's involvement, and once our daughter was up past dinner time, my inability to spend hours a night raiding curtailed my raiding as well.

Still get the urge every so often, but none of what is out there right now seems particularly attractive. If Pantheon ever actual moves forward, I will likely give it a shot, as by then my daughter will be off to college and I will be retired with time on my hands.

I understand real life can affect ability to play a TIME SINK. Yes Everquest is a classic one of the first true excellent MMO:s. I admit though that I have never played it. The reason I eventually quit MMO:S is to much TIME SINK and it continues in eternity you can never finish it.

BG3 sales will also be bumped up by players that do not have time to play a TIME SINK MMO. That is absolutely fine. At no point while eager to play AOC have I declared MMO:s are better then none MMO games.
It is apples vs oranges and I like to eat them both personally well and in MMO:s I guess it is to much to eat I can have many years break from all MMO:s or decide to quit that kind of fruit.

Plus because he doesn't like a game (or anything else), it has to be shit. Typical.

Terminator: Just because you don't like DA, it isn't shit. Stop being so rude all the time.

Timebean: I'm not a big MMO fan either, but I do like Star Wars-The Old Republic. The storylines are pretty good.

Oh, so we're seriously talking MMOs now? Sure, we can talk MMOs.

I've been playing FFXIV for years. The initial investment is a timesink, but since I've been caught up with endgame for a long while, it's been rather chill in that I can easily take long breaks from the game and return without feeling like I've been completely left behind. I took a whole year break at the start of the pandemic, as work exploded since I work in pharmacy. I recently came back, got caught up again within 2-3 weeks despite being a retired raider, and I'm now taking another break intending to play Pathfinder WotR when it officially releases in about a week, which gives me about 2 months to enjoy it before the next FFXIV expansion launches mid-November.

As far as I'm aware, the producer of FFXIV straight up said that they've deliberately designed the game in a way that they're completely okay with people unsubscribing to enjoy other games, and then come back later with a fresh perspective. I'd say it works - people don't really talk about burnout within the FFXIV community at all, compared to the other MMOs I had been a part of previously. The main feature of the game is its story and world building anyway, which is legitimately stellar enough that it keeps everyone's interest in a way most other MMOs can only dream of having, despite the seeming lack of 'hardcore content' in comparison.

People from more 'hardcore MMOs' like WoW may belittle this type of design decision, but hey, there's a reason FFXIV is breaking records in a traditionally dead period for the game, while the other games are dying and have no hope of gaining that audience back. We're at a period where people are becoming less tolerant of RNG treadmill bullshit, because most people are growing up and have less time to devote to said bullshit.

It's nice to see companies out there fighting back against the notion that the only way to keep a player's interest is to force them to invest so much time in remaining caught up, that any notion of quitting will force a player to question whether their time has been worth it. I've been bouncing around MMOs long enough to easily know when entire communities are essentially experiencing Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale. Six years and counting in FFXIV so far, and not once have I observed that sentiment from the community there.

If anything, XIV's design philosophy has a lot more in common with cRPG design than most of the other MMOs. Especially due to the focus on the story. Though they're still fairly distant as far as direct comparisons go, which is why I'm always bewildered whenever MMOs get brought up on this forum for whatever reason.

Terminator—-it is perfectly natural for people in a BG forum to talk about DA (especially DAO) because both franchises were originally developed by Bioware. And that company at its best (i.e., a looooong time ago) made great story driven rpgs with memorable characters.

It is less understandable why anyone would compare this game to an MMO…but perhaps I have a particular aversion to that style of gaming that may be unfair. I occasionally play Destiny with work pals for a little pvp silliness…and have to bite my tongue when they start going on about how complex the story is. Its like calling popcorn a gourmet dish.

Fylinar—- I actually considered trying that game. The only Star Wars game I ever played was KOTOR 1 and 2! Lol. But I just could not bring myself to do it.

Thank you for info. I have not played FINAL FANTASY IV MMO.

Hmmm I could try FINAL FANTASY IV MMO free trial to play for FREE to level 60 and see IF I like it?
Well and Final Fantasy IP I like perhaps more then the average Asian games.

FINAL FANTASY IV MMO >>>>>> DA

Timebean: I started playing SWTOR because of the two KOTOR games. I think especially the jedi knight story is very in the spirit of those games.
Most of the stories are well written, typical Bioware trait, and they have some replayability, because you have dark and light Side options for every class story and some really memorable npcs. You can play all the storiylines alone.
(Sorry for the OT)